Snow related disruption (Jan 2013)

[jon0844]

That appears to be what is going to happen tomorrow for people in London, with the snow due to start falling in the middle of the day.

Sure, the west of England and Wales will get the snow much earlier, but it doesn't become a problem until it hits London and the south east...!

 

[Matt Taylor]

Those complaining about the apparent lack of contingency for weather events on our transport infrastructure in the UK may wish to see how badly things tend to get when it rains in Los Angeles or Phoenix, the local news networks go into overdrive with reports of how badly prepared people are and how 'nobody can drive in the rain'.

 

[wintonian]

Those complaining about the apparent lack of contingency for weather events on our transport infrastructure in the UK may wish to see how badly things tend to get when it rains in Los Angeles or Phoenix, the local news networks go into overdrive with reports of how badly prepared people are and how 'nobody can drive in the rain'.

Good grief your right.

The light rain overnight was accompanied by an estimated tripling in the number of accidents on Los Angeles freeways, the California Highway Patrol reported.

Exact numbers were not immediately available, but the number of accidents this morning appeared to be about three times the normal number on a non-rainy day, said Officer Ed Jacobs said.

 

[jimm]

Makes you wonder how they manage in Scandinavia, Siberia and Northern China with a much higer snowfall than we will ever get. Their trains still get through, and often on time yet in Blighty the slight suggestion of snow and everyone panics and the network closes down!

Let's try the basic stuff, like it will inevitably snow heavily there every winter, so it makes sense to buy lots of kit to deal with it anyway, or you design for it, like raised third rails with snow covers and bottom contact current collectors on metros. Even then things go wrong. A very heavy snowfall around Oslo effectively shut down their metro for several hours one day a couple of years ago, despite the raised conductor rails.

Our climate is different, so we always try to wing it - it's not just the railways here that do this - Heathrow airport ring any bells?

Nor, outside the very biggest cities, are any of these countries running train services at frequencies that in any way resemble those that apply in much of this country. Less scope for things to go wrong and fewer trains to focus on keeping on the move when things do get difficult.

Top contact third rail is pretty useless in deep snow, so no wonder operators south of London are taking prudent precautions. If you try to run a full service and things start to get out of place, with trains and crews in the wrong places, the whole mess in such situations just, er, snowballs. If you have a contingency plan, you have fewer trains to run and can have the crews who would otherwise be on a train available at strategic points to step in if someone else gets stuck on a late-running train/can't get to work.

Even though FGW and Network Rail have contingency plans if there are problems between Reading and Paddington, even these have a tendency to fall apart, without any snow to add to the fun.

 

[fusionblue]

"consider if your journey is necessary" is, at this stage of today, more sensible than (lets say) announcing a single 2-car 465 running once an hour.

 

[willc789]

I'll just get my crystal ball out!

Already packed!! :?

 

[142094]

"consider if your journey is necessary"

In reality it is a get out clause - i.e. we've told you that things might be disrupted, so it is up to you to either plan another route or leave plenty of time for your journey.

To be honest, some passengers don't make it easy on themselves and do very little planning in the first place. They turn up and expect a service. One recently was going to catch a flight, but there was engineering work and a bus replacement, and obviously journey times were extended. The engineering work had been publicised for at least two weeks, but of course it was still the railways' fault that they were going to miss their flight.

 

[jon0844]

Those complaining about the apparent lack of contingency for weather events on our transport infrastructure in the UK may wish to see how badly things tend to get when it rains in Los Angeles or Phoenix, the local news networks go into overdrive with reports of how badly prepared people are and how 'nobody can drive in the rain'.

I was driving back from Las Vegas to Los Angeles when they had rain. Rather a lot of it - with nowhere to drain to (the flood relief channels were full). It actually IS as bad as they make out - and does bring the cities to a virtual halt. I can imagine that even fairly light rain on their concrete roads can cause a lot of problems too.

Like a lot of extreme weather, there's only so much you can do. Clearly snow isn't extreme weather but we don't take the same preparations that countries do that have it all the time so, for us, it's fairly extreme.

We could build all new trains to cope with snow, we could legislate to make people fit winter tyres and so on - but for now, we don't. It's therefore quite tiresome when people say how bad we are at coping, because we - frankly - don't really seem to want to.

Far too many people will argue that it's not worth the cost for a few days each year - and if we think that way, we can't moan when it all goes tits up. But, opinions can change. I remember arguing with people about air conditioning in cars, and the opinion here was 'why bother, it's only hot a few days a year'. That has now changed and people expect aircon in their car, on trains and more people are even putting aircon in their homes.

 

[Matt Taylor]

People already appear to be up in arms on Twitter with regard to the amended timetable tomorrow on SWT, given that the MET Office is forecasting snow for around 12 hours throughout the SWT area I think they've called it right. In December 2010 SWT ran an amended timetable with little disruption meanwhile Southern tried to run a full timetable and it was bedlam for a number of days.

And let's not forget that there was mass criticism of SWT when the whole day's service went into meltdown on December 5th following a light dusting of snow in the early hours.

 

[Wolfie]

I was driving back from Las Vegas to Los Angeles when they had rain. Rather a lot of it - with nowhere to drain to (the flood relief channels were full). It actually IS as bad as they make out - and does bring the cities to a virtual halt. I can imagine that even fairly light rain on their concrete roads can cause a lot of problems too.

Been there done that and it IS scary. Inadequate visibility, no rear fog lights or similar (in god's name why not!), pee poor wipers....

oh and being overtaken by ginormous US lorries on both sides should you show the slightest sign of slowing down - NOT funny!

 

[trwilson]

In reality it is a get out clause - i.e. we've told you that things might be disrupted, so it is up to you to either plan another route or leave plenty of time for your journey.

To be honest, some passengers don't make it easy on themselves and do very little planning in the first place. They turn up and expect a service. One recently was going to catch a flight, but there was engineering work and a bus replacement, and obviously journey times were extended. The engineering work had been publicised for at least two weeks, but of course it was still the railways' fault that they were going to miss their flight.

I think if its clearly labelled and people are warned...that is fair enough myself

Its when people cant tell me whats happening i get a bit miffed or when no notice is given.

Maybe 12 months ago there was disruption with london midlands line, i was stranded and no one seemed to know whether a bus would come, or whether a train was coming.

I noticed the chester line was still running normally, but was told that if i went via chester rather than crewe i would have to buy another ticket... despite them being unable to even tell me if a train would ever turn up..

Just before i set out, id checked journey planner and no problems had been shown, so i was a bit miffed at a 75 mile journey taking over 6 hours...

 

[142094]

Its when people cant tell me whats happening i get a bit miffed or when no notice is given.

Communication at short notice is one of the things that always has needed improvement on the railways - I've been at stations where the only info I've been given is what has been broadcast on the announcements - so not exactly great when someone asks you a question.

On the other hand, situations change very quickly. At the same station we had various changes in services due to flooding within the space of half an hour - first only one line was affected, then all services were stopped, then a reduced service was running with some stations being skipped. Trying to get in touch with control was a nightmare (100+ members of staff trying to get through to about 3 control room staff).

 

[wintonian]

Communication at short notice is one of the things that always has needed improvement on the railways - I've been at stations where the only info I've been given is what has been broadcast on the announcements - so not exactly great when someone asks you a question.

On the other hand, situations change very quickly. At the same station we had various changes in services due to flooding within the space of half an hour - first only one line was affected, then all services were stopped, then a reduced service was running with some stations being skipped. Trying to get in touch with control was a nightmare (100+ members of staff trying to get through to about 3 control room staff).

It's an area where SWT defiantly need to improve, last time I went out and it was up the swanney I was sitting on a train to Lymington in plt4 at Brock for an hour and a half with the CIS saying it was on-time and no staff (both platforms should be staffed and the ticket office was open) to tell us otherwise leading to very expensive mobile calls from the passengers to SWT's customer service dept to find out if was going to leave at all. What didn't healp was that as I arrive at Brock on the train the guard from the Lymington service wondered off the platform without a word only to return 1 1/2 hours later, so they must of had some idea and needless to say he got lynched by some very unhappy passengers.

Oh and this was completely in contrast to what was happening at Winchester where I even saw 1 or 2 of suited and booted managers out advising passengers.

 

[SF-02]

When I last checked the snow in the SE is projected to be light but for a long period. That is easier to deal with than sudden heavy snow, as continual running over the third rail should keep it clear. If some companies and NR decide to run amended timetables with longer gaps between services that could make things worse. Hopefully they wait and see the reality before deciding what measures to take.

 

[wintonian]

In further answer to the question about AP's - although not particularly relevant to the questioner, but hopefully will demonstrate some of the options available to TOC's this is what southern are saying about tomorrow.

Thursday 17 January 15.00

The latest weather forecast for tomorrow suggests significant snowfall across many parts of the Southern network.

In preparation for this, Southern will be operating an amended timetable for Friday 18 January.

Trains will not split or join at Haywards Heath or Horsham stations, and will mean passengers who travel on the East and West Coastways into and out of London may be affected.

Please note: Passengers who hold advance tickets will be able to use them on the train before or train after, if their booked train does not run as a result of the changes.

Please check your train times before travelling.

 

[embers25]

People already appear to be up in arms on Twitter with regard to the amended timetable tomorrow on SWT, given that the MET Office is forecasting snow for around 12 hours throughout the SWT area I think they've called it right. In December 2010 SWT ran an amended timetable with little disruption meanwhile Southern tried to run a full timetable and it was bedlam for a number of days.

And let's not forget that there was mass criticism of SWT when the whole day's service went into meltdown on December 5th following a light dusting of snow in the early hours.

SWT have also posted times for the whole weekend just in case and whilst there are some big losers who lose their whole service, in the main its a sensible plan and even allows extra journey time. All very sensible and practical in my opinion. Admittedly if no snow falls they'll be ripped to shreds but trying to run some sort of a timetable is better than half assing one as at least passengers have a idea.

 

[YorkshireRider]

East Coast have lifted all ticket restrictions tomorrow on all trains, except those arriving/leaving London KX before 10am, morning peak still apply into and out of London.

 

[wintonian]

Well more misleading reporting by the BBC

South West Trains (SWT) said it would not be running trains between Ascot in Berkshire and Ash Vale in Surrey.

No services will run between Salisbury and Bristol or Virginia Water and Weybridge in Surrey, the company said.

As far as I can see the impending railway Armageddon is going to pass FGW by seeing as there is nothing on their website about it.

 

[Poggs]

I'll be keeping an eye on the real-time performance statistics on http://www.opentraintimes.com/stats!

 

[wintonian]

I'll be keeping an eye on the real-time performance statistics on http://www.opentraintimes.com/stats!

Shameless but rather interesting.

 

[michael769]

I'll be keeping an eye on the real-time performance statistics on http://www.opentraintimes.com/stats!

Nice. The pie charts don't render properly on a Ipad though!

 

[Poggs]

Nice. The pie charts don't render properly on a Ipad though!

Really?! *goes to fix*

 

[Harbon 1]

I'm just hoping Doncaster is under snow, it'll make for great pictures on Saturday and as for the Leeds journey on page 1, I live as close as you possibly can to the Birmingham derby line, and the snow is slowing in Burton but that's good for the journey and my journey to Lincoln tommorrow
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Really?! *goes to fix*

They're cut off on the right for me. As in there is 3/4 of a pie chart, with a bit of the right hand side cut off

 

[Ferret]

I live as close as you possibly can to the Birmingham derby line, and the snow is slowing in Burton

Seeing as we in the Midlands were supposed to be snow free until the early hours of the morning, I'd say this afternoon's snow just highlights my earlier point - the Met Office don't have a clue.

 

[8J]

Virgin said today on twitter that they had 5 different diesel locos on standby, who knows what diesel locos. My thoughts are why not run the pretendolino on 1k39 or more Birmingham diagrams throughout the day... It will free up rolling stock which will undoubtedly become stranded across the country in different locations.

 

[FGW_DID]

Well more misleading reporting by the BBC

As far as I can see the impending railway Armageddon is going to pass FGW by seeing as there is nothing on their website about it.

I posed the question earlier on Twitter and FGW are planning on running a normal timetable tomorrow.

 

[sheff1]

If you believe the media, a dusting of snow stops everything :roll:

Quite. Seem to recall hysterical reports from the (London-based) media the winter before last that the country's rail network was at a virtual standstill. Meanwhile, up here in the 'frozen north' there was not really much disruption at all.

 

[455driver]

That appears to be what is going to happen tomorrow for people in London, with the snow due to start falling in the middle of the day.

Sure, the west of England and Wales will get the snow much earlier, but it doesn't become a problem until it hits London and the south east...!

The South West is forecast to get rain and it turns to snow as it moves East.

Met office is saying the South East will get 40 hours of snow over the next 3 days.

SWT are instigating the snow plan "just in case", if they wait for it to snow the crews and trains will be in the wrong place, there are more trains already running causing congestion at terminal stations as they then need extra drivers (which wont be available at the best of times never mind when its snowing) to get rid of the excess trains and there are then issues if the relieving crews are not available at intermediate stations such as Woking, Basingstoke, Bournemouth etc meaning platforms get blocked and a lot of fed up passengers being left halfway home. All this is why it goes base over apex as it did 2 years ago when they tried to implement the plan at Lunch time which is the last thing they want to be doing.

The snow plan requires-
Less trains and crews so giving a margin for staff who cant get in,
The running times are also slower to allow for the extra driving requirements (extra brake tests, 10mph below linespeed etc) which minimising snow being ingested into the running gear causing failures,
Some services wont run so the points at "delicate" junctions can remain in one direction, its the changing of the points that compacts the snow in the blades causing the failures.

There is more but that will do for now.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Looks like the disruption is starting. XC arrivals in York from the south west are running 1 1/2 hours late already

 

[87015]

Looks like the disruption is starting. XC arrivals in York from the south west are running 1 1/2 hours late already

221131 traction issues on the first northbound XC...