Snow related disruption (Jan 2013)

[trwilson]

Hey all

I absoloutly HAVE to travel from wolverhampton to liverpool tommorow... i cant delay it, and will be setting off about lunchtime.

As you all no doubt know, we are expecting heavy snow tommorow

I guess this may well stop the london-liverpool line in its tracks so to speak.

Question is, when the snow stops the line, do they put bus's on, or simply provide no service at all?

I can maybee get a bus to stafford- and do my journey from there...

Thanks

 

[Ferret]

Hey all

I absoloutly HAVE to travel from wolverhampton to liverpool tommorow... i cant delay it, and will be setting off about lunchtime.

As you all no doubt know, we are expecting heavy snow tommorow

I guess this may well stop the london-liverpool line in its tracks so to speak.

Question is, when the snow stops the line, do they put bus's on, or simply provide no service at all?

I can maybee get a bus to stafford- and do my journey from there...

Thanks

If the trains are all cancelled, it's a fair bet that the roads will also be gridlocked too. Draw your own conclusions about what this means for providing an alternative road transport service.

 

[michael769]

In the light of the Met office warnings I suggest that you prepare a contingency plan in the event that travel becomes impossible, and consider what you will do if you reach your destination and cannot return home.


The weather does not really care how important your journey is!

On the upside there is still some uncertainty about the track and severity of the snow so I advise paying attention to the Met office forecasts tonight and tomorrow morning before travelling, and recommend that you take note of any advice given.

 

[willc789]

Im in the same boat as the OP, I have to make an essential journey from Birmingham to Leeds tomorrow morning and return on Saturday lunch time. Its a route I'm not too familiar with so not sure about disruption beyond cross country e.g. wires down and backing things up. I've had a good check of the forecasts and most of the weather is due at the Birmingham end but just how fragile are the services on towards Leeds?

 

[Ferret]

Im in the same boat as the OP, I have to make an essential journey from Birmingham to Leeds tomorrow morning and return on Saturday lunch time. Its a route I'm not too familiar with so not sure about disruption beyond cross country e.g. wires down and backing things up. I've had a good check of the forecasts and most of the weather is due at the Birmingham end but just how fragile are the services on towards Leeds?

I'll just get my crystal ball out!

 

[burneside]

Southwest Trains has already announced a revised service for tomorrow, and Southeastern is advising passengers to "consider if your journey is necessary", and a snowflake has not even dropped yet.

 

[wintonian]

Replacement road transport is usually provide providing it is practical to do so, i.e. the road conditions mean it is possible and safe to do so and there are buses/ coaches available with drivers - there being only so many not on normal duty's and available at any one time.

Beyond that 'Force majeure' will be invoked and the TOC's will advise against travel, alleviating them of any obligation to the passenger (bar refunds etc.) so if travel is possible it would be at the passengers own risk and the TOC will not promise to get you to your destination, let alone back fro it.

If a journey really is essential then the only advise that can be given is to seek alternative transport or travel today instead.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Southwest Trains has already announced a revised service for tomorrow, and Southeastern is advising passengers to "consider if your journey is necessary", and a snowflake has not even dropped yet.

Umm, snowflakes are indeed dropping past my window in Winchester as I type.

 

[chris89]

Hey all

I absoloutly HAVE to travel from wolverhampton to liverpool tommorow... i cant delay it, and will be setting off about lunchtime.

As you all no doubt know, we are expecting heavy snow tommorow

I guess this may well stop the london-liverpool line in its tracks so to speak.

Question is, when the snow stops the line, do they put bus's on, or simply provide no service at all?

I can maybee get a bus to stafford- and do my journey from there...

Thanks

As all the West Midlands have weather warnings up for heavy snow i suggest going to the station early or potentionaly getting a earlier train if it is possible for you. Also continually check National Rail Enquires website as well.

I have done journeys to Scotland a lot in bad weather and more then common it's been the buses that have been the let down compared to the trains.

Chris

 

[Ferret]

Southwest Trains has already announced a revised service for tomorrow, and Southeastern is advising passengers to "consider if your journey is necessary", and a snowflake has not even dropped yet.

Ah, the white flag raised already I see! The Met Office don't even seem to be certain where the snow will fall yet for heaven's sake.

Still, if you do decide to travel - accept that you may not get to where you want to go. Although I'm making light of it here, it really is impossible for anyone to answer what will happen tomorrow or Saturday, so it really is pointless and a little silly to be asking questions like that.

 

[LCC106]

Hmmm... We berate people for not having a contingency plan on some threads telling them to be better prepared and now we berate them for trying to forward plan!

As a train driver, I'll be setting off early to work on Saturday. If your journey is essential I recommend you do the same - or travel today as suggested - but be prepared that the weather forecast isn't always accurate so you may go to additional expense of hotel rooms etc. for no real need.

 

[trwilson]

Hey all

Thanks for all the information, i appreciate it isnt possible to predict things, i guess i was trying to get a feel for how hard they try to provide transport, and how fragile the network is.

If you believe the media, a dusting of snow stops everything :roll:

I have moved plans already- i was going to head out at 4pm, but now will head out at 12pm to give myself 4 hours for disruption.

Looking at the forecast though it has changed from heavy to light snow- so...fingers crossed.

Thanks all

 

[Ferret]

Hmmm... We berate people for not having a contingency plan on some threads telling them to be better prepared and now we berate them for trying to forward plan!

You don't need to ask questons like the two in this thread to forward plan now do you?! I'm working tomorrow afternoon, and have several options on how to get there if the weather deteriorates. I didn't have to go on a forum to ask if London Midland's service was likely to be fragile in order to figure out that it may be wise to plan ahead.

As a train driver, I'll be setting off early to work on Saturday. If your journey is essential I recommend you do the same - or travel today as suggested - but be prepared that the weather forecast isn't always accurate so you may go to additional expense of hotel rooms etc. for no real need.

I guess that's what's known as common sense - a misnomer if ever there was one, because it doesn't seem to be that common!

 

[Anon Mouse]

Makes you wonder how they manage in Scandinavia, Siberia and Northern China with a much higer snowfall than we will ever get. Their trains still get through, and often on time yet in Blighty the slight suggestion of snow and everyone panics and the network closes down!

 

[michael769]

The met office have issued a red warning for South West Wales.

Much of Western England and Wales has an amber warning in place. The rest of the country excluding the North and West of Scotland is under a yellow warning.

Issued at: 1230 on Thu 17 Jan 2013
Valid from: 0300 on Fri 18 Jan 2013
Valid to: 2100 on Fri 18 Jan 2013

A band of snow, heavy in places, will spread northeastwards across Wales and the southwestern half of England, during Friday morning, lasting through the afternoon and evening across much of Wales, the Midlands, southern and parts of southeast England. Winds will strengthen, leading to drifting of lying snow.

Many parts of the Red Warning area are likely to have 20-30 cm of snow with strong southeasterly winds causing blizzards, severe drifting of lying snow and thus severe disruption. The public should avoid all non-essential journeys.

Elsewhere, accumulations of more than 5-10 cm of snow will occur quite widely, with 15 cm in some western parts of the Amber area, falling within 3-6 hours. The public should be prepared for disruption, including altering travel plans.

Please watch for updates to these warnings.

 

[trwilson]

You don't need to ask questons like the two in this thread to forward plan now do you?! I'm working tomorrow afternoon, and have several options on how to get there if the weather deteriorates. I didn't have to go on a forum to ask if London Midland's service was likely to be fragile in order to figure out that it may be wise to plan ahead.



I guess that's what's known as common sense - a misnomer if ever there was one, because it doesn't seem to be that common!

Hey ferret

To be fair i guessed the service may be disrupted, and have planned ahead in terms of adding four hours to get there

The bit i was unsure about was provision of road replacement

Thanks

 

[michael769]

Makes you wonder how they manage in Scandinavia, Siberia and Northern China with a much higer snowfall than we will ever get. Their trains still get through, and often on time yet in Blighty the slight suggestion of snow and everyone panics and the network closes down!

They don't! A friend who is currently in Sweden told me that there was a huge media fuss last week when much of the country ground to a halt due to heavy snowfall.

The widespread view that other countries cope better is a groundless urban myth. When we try to take on mother nature we invariable lose.

 

[ffm]

The snow of 2011 caused disruption, but trains still ran - except where third rail was an issue. Where the overhead was being overloaded with accumulated snow the trains passed slowly, but I made journeys by rail during the worst of it that I could not have by road. There seems to be a considerable level of naivety among the travelling public and the press make matters worse, by making such a fuss about the fact that we have had snow and that traffic and trains are delayed/cancelled. They would be, wouldn't they? Sort of 'No s**t Sherlock'.

As to how do Scandinavian countries manage - well they build everything to deal with heavy, prolonged snow and sub-zero freezing conditions. Much the same for countries where the temperature is constantly high, they build accordingly (such as everywhere with aircon). We don't, because it is not the norm here. Makes you wonder how people never think of such things............

 

[Anon Mouse]

They don't! A friend who is currently in Sweden told me that there was a huge media fuss last week when much of the country ground to a halt due to heavy snowfall.

The widespread view that other countries cope better is a groundless urban myth. When we try to take on mother nature we invariable lose.

They still fair much better than we do, but to be fair thats maybe because their infastructure is designed to cope better with the extreme weather as they are used to it. I bet by percentage a lot more trains manage to run and get people to their destinations than here in Countries that have a hell of a lot more snow than we do. In Sweden it will take a lot more than the snowfall we get here to stop the network, here a few flakes and the panic sets in

 

[Ferret]

Hey ferret

To be fair i guessed the service may be disrupted, and have planned ahead in terms of adding four hours to get there

The bit i was unsure about was provision of road replacement

Thanks

The roads tend to become stuffed before the railways do in my experience. Alas I need my car to get home from work late tomorrow night/Sat morning so in anticipation of the roads being chaos tomorrow afternoon, I shall be depositing my car at work shortly so it is in position! I'll figure out a way of getting to work tomorrow when the snow starts! Leaves me a choice of train, bus, taxi, Shanks' pony if I'm really stuffed. Either way, I will get to work to take my train out!

 

[trainophile]

I have an Advance ticket for Sunday (Hereford to Southport via Crewe). Don't suppose there's any leeway for travelling on a different day with the AP ticket if there's a chance of disruption at the weekend?

Also, if the deluge (?) of snow happens tomorrow as forecast, and the temps are freezing, but no further snowfalls occur, how long would it take for the rail network to get back to normal? Are there procedures for making the tracks safe, or is it just a matter of waiting until nature sorts the snow and ice out?

 

[michael769]

The roads tend to become stuffed before the railways do in my experience. Alas I need my car to get home from work late tomorrow night/Sat morning so in anticipation of the roads being chaos tomorrow afternoon, I shall be depositing my car at work shortly so it is in position! I'll figure out a way of getting to work tomorrow when the snow starts! Leaves me a choice of train, bus, taxi, Shanks' pony if I'm really stuffed. Either way, I will get to work to take my train out!

Rail copes much better than road transport initially - probably because rail relies less on grip. problems on the rail are more usually due to low temperatures freezing points and taking down knitting. The only real weak point is the tendency of certain electric stock to suck snow into air intakes causing shorts.

Also, if the deluge (?) of snow happens tomorrow as forecast, and the temps are freezing, but no further snowfalls occur, how long would it take for the rail network to get back to normal? Are there procedures for making the tracks safe, or is it just a matter of waiting until nature sorts the snow and ice out?

Network Rail do have ploughs and other equipment but there is not a lot of it so it takes times to get around. Trains can run in up to 20cm of snow with those fitted with obstacle deflectors (aka mini-ploughs) such as the 156 fleet can coping with up to 30cm and these may be authorized to run in up to 45cm. During snow conditions Network Rail try to run mini plough equipped locomotives (mostly cl37s) throughout the night to avoid lines getting blocked due to a lack of traffic.

The main issue is with snowdrifts (which can be 6+ feet deep in even light snowfalls) and with high winds predicted this may be a problem especially in eastern areas tomorrow.The saving grace is that temperatures are not going to be exceptionally low - many of the problems in 2010 were more due to the extreme cold and icing rather than snow.

 

[Ferret]

Rail copes much better than road transport initially - probably because rail relies less on grip. problems on the rail are more usually due to low temperatures freezing points and taking down knitting. The only real weak point is the tendency of certain electric stock to suck snow into air intakes causing shorts.

That's about the size of it! Of course, 3rd rail areas like the southeast tend to do quite badly when the snow falls. Alas what we could really do with to keep the service running there is a fleet of diesel locomotives to drag units around to maintain an hourly service!

To the chap with an advance for Sunday, I'd suggest asking the question of the railway company's customer relations department! I'd expect them to honour tickets the following day at the very least.

 

[jon0844]

Makes you wonder how they manage in Scandinavia, Siberia and Northern China with a much higer snowfall than we will ever get. Their trains still get through, and often on time yet in Blighty the slight suggestion of snow and everyone panics and the network closes down!

Not quite true. While they do have the obvious benefit of knowing that they're likely to have snow for some time, they still get caught out and do suffer delays - and often have major problems on the roads despite clearing roads (with snow ploughs rather than constantly gritting) and having winter tyres fitted by law.

The trains are of course built to cope with snow, with different designs than a lot of the stock here to stop the electrical problems we suffer, which obviously helps - but there are limits. Bear in mind that in Sweden, chances are it snows and then the snow settles and stays as is for some time - perhaps with more snow to top things up from time to time.

It doesn't quickly melt and freeze, as it does here. That said, Sweden has been having warmer weather in recent years and some of the problems we have is beginning to become more common there, which is perhaps causing the increased problems that you can read about in the Swedish press (or thelocal.se if you want to see it in English).

The line I use when I'm in Sweden to go into Stockholm generally has 2tph (and not that much more in the peak) so it clearly has a lot less to worry about than our services into town which can't cope with even relatively small delays because of the knock-on effects. The number of passengers is significantly lower on many lines, so there's less chance of thousands of people being left stranded too.

Yet, if people are caught out then at least roads are still drivable in most cases because everyone has winter tyres. If we fitted them here, perhaps with insurance companies giving incentives to make it more affordable, our road network wouldn't grind to a half at the first few flakes. I doubt we could ever make fitting them compulsory, at least not until our climate changes a lot more to become like Scandinavia.

 

[wintonian]

I have an Advance ticket for Sunday (Hereford to Southport via Crewe). Don't suppose there's any leeway for travelling on a different day with the AP ticket if there's a chance of disruption at the weekend?

Also, if the deluge (?) of snow happens tomorrow as forecast, and the temps are freezing, but no further snowfalls occur, how long would it take for the rail network to get back to normal? Are there procedures for making the tracks safe, or is it just a matter of waiting until nature sorts the snow and ice out?

Any inter availability or provision to use tickets on another day will be announced by the TOC's on their update pages as and when they deem necessary.

As for how long it takes to recover that depends on how long it takes to thaw out and the amount of damage that's been done and if there is anyone not fixing stuff elsewhere to fix it.

 

[OuterDistant]

Don't forget, trains will do much better than the roads in heavy snow, provided that the staff can get in - which is usually by road!

 

[telstarbox]

Im in the same boat as the OP, I have to make an essential journey from Birmingham to Leeds tomorrow morning and return on Saturday lunch time. Its a route I'm not too familiar with so not sure about disruption beyond cross country e.g. wires down and backing things up. I've had a good check of the forecasts and most of the weather is due at the Birmingham end but just how fragile are the services on towards Leeds?

If the direct trains aren't running, you may be able to use these alternative routes if they are running but check with staff regarding your ticket's validity:

- Birmingham - Manchester Piccadilly - Leeds (via Huddersfield).
- Birmingham - Manchester Piccadilly - Manchester Victoria - Leeds (this is a different route, via Hebden Bridge)
- Birmingham - Leicester - Sheffield - Leeds.

 

[trwilson]

If the direct trains aren't running, you may be able to use these alternative routes if they are running but check with staff regarding your ticket's validity:

- Birmingham - Manchester Piccadilly - Leeds (via Huddersfield).
- Birmingham - Manchester Piccadilly - Manchester Victoria - Leeds (this is a different route, via Hebden Bridge)
- Birmingham - Leicester - Sheffield - Leeds.

Yeah id been looking at alternative routes

when i do this journey normally i simply go direct (london midland) wolverhampton to liverpool.

but i have considered getting a bus or even a taxi to stafford where i think there are virgin services as well

 

[telstarbox]

I have an Advance ticket for Sunday (Hereford to Southport via Crewe). Don't suppose there's any leeway for travelling on a different day with the AP ticket if there's a chance of disruption at the weekend?

TOCs often allow passengers on Advance tickets to travel the next day in times of severe disruption, or to claim a refund if they decide not to travel (on top of the provisions in the NRCoC).

See this thread for examples of additional validity offered during snow disruption in December 2010 (but don't assume that the same will automatically apply).

Also, if the deluge (?) of snow happens tomorrow as forecast, and the temps are freezing, but no further snowfalls occur, how long would it take for the rail network to get back to normal? Are there procedures for making the tracks safe, or is it just a matter of waiting until nature sorts the snow and ice out?

In my experience trains will run as long as it safe and possible to do so - it isn't the case (as the media tend to report) that everything grinds to a halt with the first snowflake. I've seen staff move heaven and earth to keep trains and passengers moving in bad weather.

 

[wintonian]

I've seen staff move heaven and earth to keep trains and passengers moving in bad weather.

I've even seen them move the snow!

 

[W230]

Makes you wonder how they manage in Scandinavia, Siberia and Northern China with a much higer snowfall than we will ever get. Their trains still get through, and often on time yet in Blighty the slight suggestion of snow and everyone panics and the network closes down!

With the exception of contact problems on third rail areas causing grief, I think alot of the problem is drivers not being able to get to work in the first place!

If they're already there (ie. the snow starts during the day and doesn;t stop people driving in, then I would expect less problems).