letter from East Midlands Trains Prosecution Department

[Qwerty133]

I really wouldn't bother, unless you're on their payroll or have been directly affected by their departure from the rules they're supposed to follow.

Couldn't be bothered in the end but have posted most in the UK railway discussion forum

 

[RPI]

That does not necessarily mean that Northern have an agreement with EMT to do barriers on their behalf, and vice versa. Northern have a set way of doing their revenue blockades, and as we have seen in the past, the way that EMT conduct themselves at stations such as Sheffield and Meadowhall, it doesn't show Northern in a good light.

It doesn't matter which TOC the RPI works for, any "Officer of the railway" can deal with any offences within the entire national rail network, I work for a TOc and we prosecute and issue PF's on behalf of other TOC's.

 

[island]

You must personally be authorised by a TOC to collect PFs for it.

 

[6Gman]

The East Midlands Trains passenger charter (valid from June 2010(not sure if this is the current edition however I picked it it up at derby station recently so would presume it is)) states on page 5 'if you could not buy a ticket because there were no ticket retailing facilities available at the station where you started your journey you can buy a range of tickets on board. It is your responsibility to approach the Train Manager or Senior Conductor at the earliest opportunity to purchase a ticket.' Which could be read to mean it is your job to find the guard to pay for your ticket.

EDIT: just checked on the emt site and this is the current version of the passenger charter

1. This surely can only apply to EMT trains?

2. Cannot over-ride NRCOC?

3. Would a Northern Swinton-Sheffield service carry a Train Manager or Senior Conductor? Wouldn't it simply be a Conductor?

4. And it's a very stupid idea! Perhaps I could get a gang together to board an EMT 153 at Alsager and we can all stampede after the Conductor/ SC/ TM insisting he sells us tickets before we get to Crewe! !

 

[Qwerty133]

1. This surely can only apply to EMT trains?

2. Cannot over-ride NRCOC?

3. Would a Northern Swinton-Sheffield service carry a Train Manager or Senior Conductor? Wouldn't it simply be a Conductor?

4. And it's a very stupid idea! Perhaps I could get a gang together to board an EMT 153 at Alsager and we can all stampede after the Conductor/ SC/ TM insisting he sells us tickets before we get to Crewe! !

And then send our tickets off when there's only a senior conductor not train manager as this is also agaisnt their passenger charter (see page 6)

 

[6Gman]

And then send our tickets off when there's only a senior conductor not train manager as this is also agaisnt their passenger charter (see page 6)

Wow! What a bizarre 'promise'! To have a Train Manager on every train!

So how does EMT define a "Train Manager" ?

 

[John @ home]

for the benefit of the OP, the fare for Swinton-Sheffield single ticket in Avantix is £3.60. You should not pay a penny more.

The incident took place on 15 November 2012. See post #1. The Swinton - Sheffield single fare was then £3.50.

 

[Ferret]

The incident took place on 15 November 2012. See post #1. The Swinton - Sheffield single fare was then £3.50.

Yes, that's a good point! Well spotted

 

[Qwerty133]

Wow! What a bizarre 'promise'! To have a Train Manager on every train!

So how does EMT define a "Train Manager" ?

Who knows ,how can a senior conductor be a train manager

 

[sheff1]

! Perhaps I could get a gang together to board an EMT 153 at Alsager and we can all stampede after the Conductor/ SC/ TM insisting he sells us tickets before we get to Crewe! !

Don't forget the 'earliest opportunity' will be as he/she opens the doors. Insist they sell the tickets before they despatch the train !!

Going back to the original post, my only concern is that I thought there was a TVM at Swinton (despite what NRES says). There again, is it fair to assume that a notice in the booking office window telling you to buy on the train overides the notice advising you to buy before you board ?

 

[yorkie]

There again, is it fair to assume that a notice in the booking office window telling you to buy on the train overides the notice advising you to buy before you board ?

Agreed.

Though if the passenger was paying by credit/debit card, then it would be possible to use the machine, assuming the machine was in working order, so if the passenger tried to pay by card then the guard may not be happy about it.

If the passenger was intending to pay by cash then of course they have to board the train without pre-purchasing as the Northern ticket machines at stations such as Swinton do not accept cash.

... The revenue protection officer who questioned me told me that it is my responsibility to find the train manager to purchase a ticket onboard the train. This was the first time I had heard of this as I am a Canadian citizen who has only recently settled in the UK....

This is not true, and I apologise that you've suffered bad treatment here in the UK.

Unfortunately EMT do employ people who will treat people badly and give out incorrect information. I know, I've seen it myself and heard many accounts from other passengers of this.

There is no such requirement to seek the guard, though if the guard does come round checking tickets then of course you should ask for the ticket then, and if this does not happen then you should locate the ticket office at your destination (if there is one, which in the case of Sheffield, there is). Nothing more than that.

Sadly here in the UK we don't have an effective rail Regulator, and we don't have a fully impartial, effective, knowledgeable and proactive passenger watchdog either, otherwise these sort of problems would be nipped in the bud and stamped out, and threads like this would be a rarity. But it's not the case, and sadly you're not by any means the first to be falsely accused, and you won't be the last either.

But I am confident that, assuming what you say is all true, and I don't have any reason to doubt it, nothing needs to be paid by you other than the £3.50 due.

I am happy to proof read a letter for you.

Edit: In fact, I've drafted a letter for you (based on your original). You have a PM.

 

[34D]

Agreed.

Though if the passenger was paying by credit/debit card, then it would be possible to use the machine, assuming the machine was in working order, so if the passenger tried to pay by card then the guard may not be happy about it.

If the passenger was intending to pay by cash then of course they have to board the train without pre-purchasing as the Northern ticket machines at stations such as Swinton do not accept cash.

Perhaps I'm being a pedant here. I'm travelling through Swinton tomorrow so will keep eyes peeled for any sign of a machine.

However, Northern's TVM policy is a card-only machine at stations that are completely unstaffed, and a card/caah one at stations which have a booking office for part of the day, so by that logic, Swinton _ought_ to have a cash/card machine.

The OP will presumably know, either way?

 

[John @ home]

Northern's TVM policy is a card-only machine at stations that are completely unstaffed, and a card/caah one at stations which have a booking office for part of the day, so by that logic, Swinton _ought_ to have a cash/card machine.

But National Rail Enquiries, which claims to be the definitive source of information, tells us that Swinton has no self-service machines. I think a passenger is entitled to rely on that statement, and does not have to go searching round every corner of a station's premises in case the statement is out of date.

 

[Chapeltom]

I travelled through Swinton earlier on a Northern stopper, there is definitely no machine of any kind at Swinton station.

 

[sheff1]

I travelled through Swinton earlier on a Northern stopper, there is definitely no machine of any kind at Swinton station.

OK. I must be mistaken.

 

[142094]

It doesn't matter which TOC the RPI works for, any "Officer of the railway" can deal with any offences within the entire national rail network, I work for a TOc and we prosecute and issue PF's on behalf of other TOC's.

Yes, but there will be some sort of an agreement between your TOC and the other TOC to do so. I cannot see one TOC suddenly doing UFNs etc for journeys on a different TOC without consulting them first.

 

[GadgetMan]

Yes, but there will be some sort of an agreement between your TOC and the other TOC to do so. I cannot see one TOC suddenly doing UFNs etc for journeys on a different TOC without consulting them first.

For PFs and UFNs there needs to be an agreement. But for Bylaw offences any member of railway staff can report a passenger and any TOC can prosecute regardless of which train/station operator the passenger has used.

 

[MichaelAMW]

In circumstances like this is it even a requirement to give your name and address?

Under the RoRA he has satisfied the requirement of offering either a ticket or the fare or name and address. The byelaws say that name and address can only be requested if there is reasonable suspicion of a byelaw offence, which there doesn't seem to be. The OP hasn't suggested that the RPI didn't believe he'd come from Swinton and the lack of ticket facilities at Swinton mean he can't breach byelaw 18. You're not even, under the NRCOC, required to get your ticket "as soon as is reasonably practicable;" you are simply required to pay the same fare as if you'd bought a ticket before travel and there's no mention of when that should happen.

Or am I missing something?!

 

[maniacmartin]

5 Penalty for avoiding payment of fare.

(1)Every passenger by a railway shall, on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, either produce, and if so requested deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or pay his fare from the place whence he started, or give the officer or servant his name and address; and in case of default shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding [F4level 1 on the standard scale][F5[F6level 2 on the standard scale]].

(2)If a passenger having failed either to produce, or if requested to deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or to pay his fare, refuses [F7or fails] on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, to give his name and address, any officer of the company F8. . . may detain him until he can be conveniently brought before some justice or otherwise discharged by due course of law.

(emphasis mine)

My reading of RoRA supports your interpretation MichaelAMW, unless there is other legislation that I've overlooked.

 

[sumanik]

I got a letter yesterday saying that my file would be closed as long as I paid 3.50 to East Midlands within 14 days. It would have been a lot easier for them and me if I had just been allowed to pay the fare in the station. Thanks for all the help.

 

[causton]

Good to hear they realised what was going on eventually and woke up

 

[island]

Common sense has thankfully prevailed.

 

[34D]

I travelled through Swinton earlier on a Northern stopper, there is definitely no machine of any kind at Swinton station.

Not that it matters, but perhaps someone can alight and double check that there isn't one not visible from passing trains? I can try to do this myself over the next few weeks if okay.

 

[Clip]

Unfortunately however SHF is still owned by EMT, and since the OP has not stated otherwise I assume they haven't tried to issue him with a PF, only an UFN.

I assume that EMT still have the right to do this since they own the station.

No, Network Rail own the station, EMT manage it. /Pedant


But glad the OP got the right result in the end but what a waste of everybodys time involved here. There really is something rotten to the core about EMTs practices the more and mroe I read about them.

 

[Ferret]

But glad the OP got the right result in the end but what a waste of everybodys time involved here. There really is something rotten to the core about EMTs practices the more and mroe I read about them.

This was an example of poor staff training again - the RPI appears to believe that it is a legal requirement to seek out the Guard on the train and acted accordingly, based on an unenforceable section in the EMT Passenger Charter. EMT clearly have a problem with the training of their staff as a significant number of their front line staff seem to be struggling with the basics. It appears to be a lesson in how having even one person who isn't up to speed in a key role - in this case I'd suggest it's the training department - can have quite a negative impact on the business.

 

[yorkie]

I got a letter yesterday saying that my file would be closed as long as I paid 3.50 to East Midlands within 14 days. It would have been a lot easier for them and me if I had just been allowed to pay the fare in the station. Thanks for all the help.

Thanks for the update. That's good to hear. Was that a response to the letter I assisted with you with? I didn't want to sound too confident at the time, but I was pretty sure it would make them re-consider!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But glad the OP got the right result in the end but what a waste of everybodys time involved here. There really is something rotten to the core about EMTs practices the more and mroe I read about them.

Totally agree.

I've tried phoning them about a few of their misleading statements and incorrect working practices, but it's like talking to a brick wall. You can eventually get through to a manager, who promises to do something, but nothing actually happens!

 

[Clip]

Thanks for the update. That's good to hear. Was that a response to the letter I assisted with you with? I didn't want to sound too confident at the time, but I was pretty sure it would make them re-consider!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Totally agree.

I've tried phoning them about a few of their misleading statements and incorrect working practices, but it's like talking to a brick wall. You can eventually get through to a manager, who promises to do something, but nothing actually happens!

They are just paying lip service to you and will not get anything done. Thats what I cant stand about it all. Ill never say ill do something and not follow it up. Even if its something that probably wont get done right away Ill never promise it because by not following it up you look bad and thus make your TOC look bad.

Im sure there are some excellent people working for EMT that wont get their praise sang enough if at all but those that choose to ignore stuff and interpret things in their own way are the ones that are showing EMT to be very poor at what they are meant to do.

Its seemingly like they just dont care.

 

[WillPS]

What strikes me as so odd is that surely a lot of the personnel must be former Midland Mainline - who were nowhere near as bad!

 

[yorkie]

sumanik - please send me a PM, thanks

 

[6Gman]

Who knows ,how can a senior conductor be a train manager

I've now had a reply from EMT saying that Senior Conductors and Train Managers are the same thing - the varying terms having been carried over as part of the franchise agreement.