letter from East Midlands Trains Prosecution Department

[sumanik]

Hello,

I was hoping someone could help me out. I got on the train at Swinton (South Yorkshire) where the ticket station was closed. I intended to buy a ticket on the train but I didn't see the train manager nor was I asked to purchase a ticket. I got to Sheffield station where I was then questioned by a member of the revenue protection team. She told me that East Midlands would send me a letter that I could respond to in order to explain my circumstances. I have now received the letter and I am quite frightened as it is from their prosecution department. Here is what the letter says:

On the ___________ a person giving the above name and address was questioned by a member of the East Midlands Trains rail staff about an incident that had occurred. Subsequently that matter has been reported to this office.

All the evidence available is being considered as to whether legal proceedings are appropriate. If you consider that there are further mitigating factors that may influence any decision that may be made about this matter you are invited to respond, in writing only, within 14 days of the date of this letter. Please ensure ALL details below are completed and returned to ensure our records are correct.

Additional correspondence may incur departmental costs

Do you think they are planning to criminally prosecute me? I called them and they said they are not currently planning to prosecute but it will depend on my letter outlining the mitigating circumstances. Does anyone know what is likely happen to me?

Here is the letter I have written in response. Could someone help me? I don't know if what I have written is suitable or if I have missed out something I should have included.

(Letter removed by moderator)

 

[LexyBoy]

Welcome to the forum.

The ticket station at Swinton station was closed and a sign was placed in the window saying that customers should purchase tickets on the train.

This is the key part. If this is true (and I see no reason to doubt it given that the publicised opening hours are Monday-Saturday 07:00-13:45, and that there is no TVM) then you should purchase a ticket at the first opportunity. There is no requirement to seek out the guard in this situation.

If you did not have an opportunity to purchase from the guard then the first opportunity would have been on arrival at Sheffield. I think there are a few more answers needed to clarify what exactly happened at Sheffield:
- Where were you stopped by the RPI? Had you left the station at all, e.g. by going to the tram stop or leaving the main concourse?
- Were you offered an opportunity to pay for the ticket at all?
- Did you buy a ticket after being questioned.

You would not have been able to buy a ticket for your journey from the ticket machines, so it might be possible that by heading to them instead of the ticket office your intention was misconstrued by the RPI to be to leave the station.

Going on what has been said so far I would offer a full explanation of the situation and offer to pay the fare due (if not paid already). You have done nothing wrong so should not be penalised with extra costs.

 

[Waldgrun]

Hi there!

I believe that in order to answer your questions, further details are needed.

1). Where were you travelling to?
2). Where did the incident occur?
3). Was any payment taken?
4). Was any paperwork issued?
5). On what service where you travelling?

A quick look on the National Rail website states that Penalty Fares do not apply when travelling from Swinton (Yorks) station. With the Ticket office opening Monday-Saturday 07:00-13:45, and no self service machines, so you should not have had any problems! So I think some more information is required.

 

[sumanik]

I was questioned just I left the platform and entered the main concourse. They had set up a temporary barrier so I could not go further.
I was not offered the opportunity to pay. I offered to pay but she told me that this was not possible
I did not buy a ticket after being questioned because she had already told me that this was not possible and she had told me that it was likely that East Midlands would request me to pay the fair.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Welcome to the forum.




If you did not have an opportunity to purchase from the guard then the first opportunity would have been on arrival at Sheffield. I think there are a few more answers needed to clarify what exactly happened at Sheffield:
- Where were you stopped by the RPI? Had you left the station at all, e.g. by going to the tram stop or leaving the main concourse?
- Were you offered an opportunity to pay for the ticket at all?
- Did you buy a ticket after being questioned.

I was questioned just I left the platform and entered the main concourse. They had set up a temporary barrier so I could not go further.
I was not offered the opportunity to pay. I offered to pay but she told me that this was not possible
I did not buy a ticket after being questioned because she had already told me that this was not possible and she had told me that it was likely that East Midlands would request me to pay the fair.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hi there!

I believe that in order to answer your questions, further details are needed.

1). Where were you travelling to?
2). Where did the incident occur?
3). Was any payment taken?
4). Was any paperwork issued?
5). On what service where you travelling?

A quick look on the National Rail website states that Penalty Fares do not apply when travelling from Swinton (Yorks) station. With the Ticket office opening Monday-Saturday 07:00-13:45, and no self service machines, so you should not have had any problems! So I think some more information is required.

I was travelling to Sheffield
I was stopped just as I was coming off the platform into the main concourse
No payment was taken even though I offered it
They didn't give me any paperwork, but they asked me a lot of questions
I was on a Northern Train, I think its final destination was Lincoln

 

[142094]

There was a case of this last year at Meadowhall, where a person who had just left a Northern service was stopped by someone working for EMT and the same as above happened. In reality as it was a Northern service, Northern should be dealing with it.

 

[Ferret]

There was a case of this last year at Meadowhall, where a person who had just left a Northern service was stopped by someone working for EMT and the same as above happened. In reality as it was a Northern service, Northern should be dealing with it.

Incorrect I'm afraid. London Midland and XC often do joint operations and deal with each other's revenue issues as they occur.

Of course, that doesn't alter the fact that if there was no opportunity to purchase a ticket at Swinton or on board the train, then the OP has committed no offence, unless they attempted to leave the station at Sheffield without paying. From the OP's account, although it's a little difficult to follow, it does not seem to be the case that he/she tried to leave without paying.
It should also be noted that there is no *legal* requirement to seek out staff on the train. It is a requirement to pay your fare before leaving the railway premises so long as there are facilities at the destination station.

 

[Max]

If what you say is true then you should have absolutely nothing to fear. I cannot understand why you simply weren't asked to pay at the gateline. Sadly I believe that East Midlands Trains RPIs can be very heavy handed.

 

[AlexS]

There was a case of this last year at Meadowhall, where a person who had just left a Northern service was stopped by someone working for EMT and the same as above happened. In reality as it was a Northern service, Northern should be dealing with it.

EMT RPOs based at Sheffield deal with revenue protection on behalf of Northern in the South Yorkshire area, hence you can find them carrying out blocks at places like Dore and Totley, and Chapeltown, as examples.

 

[142094]

Incorrect I'm afraid. London Midland and XC often do joint operations and deal with each other's revenue issues as they occur.

That does not necessarily mean that Northern have an agreement with EMT to do barriers on their behalf, and vice versa. Northern have a set way of doing their revenue blockades, and as we have seen in the past, the way that EMT conduct themselves at stations such as Sheffield and Meadowhall, it doesn't show Northern in a good light.

 

[Mojo]

There is no requirement to seek out the conductor/Train Manager on board, only to pay at the first opportunity

 

[142094]

EMT RPOs based at Sheffield deal with revenue protection on behalf of Northern in the South Yorkshire area, hence you can find them carrying out blocks at places like Dore and Totley, and Chapeltown, as examples.

I believe that this may be changing soon.

 

[Ferret]

That does not necessarily mean that Northern have an agreement with EMT to do barriers on their behalf, and vice versa. Northern have a set way of doing their revenue blockades, and as we have seen in the past, the way that EMT conduct themselves at stations such as Sheffield and Meadowhall, it doesn't show Northern in a good light.

It would appear the Northern and EMT *do* have an agreement. I agree that it would be better if Northern dealt with this, but that does not have to be the case.

 

[455driver]

I suppose the $1000 question is where was the gateline set up, if it was on the exit side of the ticket office then the OP has committed an offence by walking past the ticket office, if it was platform side then they have not!

 

[142094]

It would appear the Northern and EMT *do* have an agreement. I agree that it would be better if Northern dealt with this, but that does not have to be the case.

Probably should have spent a bit more time on the previous post. AFAIK the agreement was made only for stations where there was shared use between EMT and Northern (so Sheff and Meadowell, Dore). I'd be surprised if they were being used at Chapeltown regularly (certainly I did not know that and haven't seen it), unless it was short term cover.

Northern have enough problems with the situation at stations such as Man Vic and Wigan Wallgate with G4S, so extra conflict caused by EMT isn't likely to go down well. This probably explains the intake of Northern RPIs and the extension of the so-called Northern penalty fare zone along the Hope Valley.

 

[beeza1]

There is no requirement to seek out the conductor/Train Manager on board, only to pay at the first opportunity

I have an email from XC which (albeit reluctantly) confirms this, it states,
"It is not strictly documented that you have to approach the guard, this is more of a recommendation as this will help the guard make their decision as to whether a customer has genuinely been unable to purchase a ticket at this point, or if they are trying to avoid paying the fare."

With regard to the ticket barriers at SHF, the only time I have ever seen them they have been situated at the bottom of the stairs leading to/from the platforms, which is BEFORE you reach the TVM's or ticket office, if you are arriving at SHF.

 

[GadgetMan]

I am incredibly sorry for the trouble I have caused and am happy to pay for any cost incurred by your department in the processing of this incident.

If you haven't walked by the ticket office when stopped then you've done nothing wrong, therefore there is no need to apologise or offer to cover any costs incurred processing the incident. So the above line should read you're happy to pay the fare due which is what you offered on the day in question.

If however you pass by an opportunity to pay whether intentional or not, then I would agree its best to offer to cover any costs incurred.

 

[Ferret]

I suppose the $1000 question is where was the gateline set up, if it was on the exit side of the ticket office then the OP has committed an offence by walking past the ticket office, if it was platform side then they have not!

Correct. I'm not sure where they put themselves at Sheffield when doing a barrier. To give the dodgers chance to walk past a ticket office and thus hang themselves though, you'd have to be at the main doors to the station. I doubt they were stood there, so I'm leaning towards there being no offence here.

Just one question for the OP though. You will have been asked something along the lines of 'if I'd not stopped you today, do you agree that the fare would've gone unpaid?'. How did you answer this question?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Welcome to the forum.
Do not offer to pay costs, explain the situation and say that, as you were on the day of the incident, you are prepared to pay the fare. You have done nothing wrong and do not be afraid of anything.

Not sure whether mentioned recently settled here may seem as an excuse. People on here are better at this than me and will advise you on content of your reply.

 

[Qwerty133]

The East Midlands Trains passenger charter (valid from June 2010(not sure if this is the current edition however I picked it it up at derby station recently so would presume it is)) states on page 5 'if you could not buy a ticket because there were no ticket retailing facilities available at the station where you started your journey you can buy a range of tickets on board. It is your responsibility to approach the Train Manager or Senior Conductor at the earliest opportunity to purchase a ticket.' Which could be read to mean it is your job to find the guard to pay for your ticket.

EDIT: just checked on the emt site and this is the current version of the passenger charter

 

[beeza1]

The East Midlands Trains passenger charter (valid from June 2010(not sure if this is the current edition however I picked it it up at derby station recently so would presume it is)) states on page 5 'if you could not buy a ticket because there were no ticket retailing facilities available at the station where you started your journey you can buy a range of tickets on board. It is your responsibility to approach the Train Manager or Senior Conductor at the earliest opportunity to purchase a ticket.' Which could be read to mean it is your job to find the guard to pay for your ticket.

EDIT: just checked on the emt site and this is the current version of the passenger charter

This tends to contradict the email I recieved from XC customer services recently, (post #15 above). Do EMT operate under different T&C's to the other TOC's?
The OP states he arrived at SHF on a Northern Service, so surely EMT's T&C's don't apply?

 

[RJ]

The East Midlands Trains passenger charter (valid from June 2010(not sure if this is the current edition however I picked it it up at derby station recently so would presume it is)) states on page 5 'if you could not buy a ticket because there were no ticket retailing facilities available at the station where you started your journey you can buy a range of tickets on board. It is your responsibility to approach the Train Manager or Senior Conductor at the earliest opportunity to purchase a ticket.' Which could be read to mean it is your job to find the guard to pay for your ticket.

EDIT: just checked on the emt site and this is the current version of the passenger charter

I'm quite happy to challenge the auspices of their passenger charter but fortunately for them, they haven't tried to use it against me!

 

[island]

The East Midlands Trains passenger charter (valid from June 2010(not sure if this is the current edition however I picked it it up at derby station recently so would presume it is)) states on page 5 'if you could not buy a ticket because there were no ticket retailing facilities available at the station where you started your journey you can buy a range of tickets on board. It is your responsibility to approach the Train Manager or Senior Conductor at the earliest opportunity to purchase a ticket.' Which could be read to mean it is your job to find the guard to pay for your ticket.

EDIT: just checked on the emt site and this is the current version of the passenger charter

The OP was not travelling with East Midlands Trains.

 

[CallySleeper]

This tends to contradict the email I recieved from XC customer services recently, (post #15 above). Do EMT operate under different T&C's to the other TOC's?
The OP states he arrived at SHF on a Northern Service, so surely EMT's T&C's don't apply?

The OP was not travelling with East Midlands Trains.

Unfortunately however SHF is still owned by EMT, and since the OP has not stated otherwise I assume they haven't tried to issue him with a PF, only an UFN.

I assume that EMT still have the right to do this since they own the station.

 

[Ferret]

I suppose the $1000 question is where was the gateline set up, if it was on the exit side of the ticket office then the OP has committed an offence by walking past the ticket office, if it was platform side then they have not!

The East Midlands Trains passenger charter (valid from June 2010(not sure if this is the current edition however I picked it it up at derby station recently so would presume it is)) states on page 5 'if you could not buy a ticket because there were no ticket retailing facilities available at the station where you started your journey you can buy a range of tickets on board. It is your responsibility to approach the Train Manager or Senior Conductor at the earliest opportunity to purchase a ticket.' Which could be read to mean it is your job to find the guard to pay for your ticket.

EDIT: just checked on the emt site and this is the current version of the passenger charter

Nice try EMT, but this has no basis in law. You'll be laughed out of court if you try bringing a byelaw 18 in those circumstances....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Unfortunately however SHF is still owned by EMT, and since the OP has not stated otherwise I assume they haven't tried to issue him with a PF, only an UFN.

I assume that EMT still have the right to do this since they own the station.

No they do not. Swinton is not a penalty fare station! Even if it was - the ticket office was shut! What's happened here is some idiot has put that drivel about seeking out the Guard on board the train into EMTs Passenger Charter, and the RPI has taken that as meaning it's a legal requirement. A real facepalm moment so far as I'm concerned.

Now, if it stated words to the effect that you must pay the Train Manager when he comes through the train, that would be far better. And crucially, you can be prosecuted for RoR Act S.5 if you ignore the train manager passing through the train, as by doing so, you demonstrate intent to avoid the fare.

 

[CallySleeper]

Also, the OP has said above that no paperwork was issued. From that I understand that a UFN has not been issued. Will EMT be looking purely to prosecute or may they still issue a UFN on the basis of the OP's response?

 

[Ferret]

Also, the OP has said above that no paperwork was issued. From that I understand that a UFN has not been issued. Will EMT be looking purely to prosecute or may they still issue a UFN on the basis of the OP's response?

All it means is that they are investigating the matter further. Nothing more at this stage.

 

[Qwerty133]

I'm quite happy to challenge the auspices of their passenger charter but fortunately for them, they haven't tried to use it against me!

Not saying that I agree about this condition which I don't it is one of a few points in there which I was going to send an email about being incorrect or agaisnt the NRCOCs

 

[sumanik]

Correct. I'm not sure where they put themselves at Sheffield when doing a barrier. To give the dodgers chance to walk past a ticket office and thus hang themselves though, you'd have to be at the main doors to the station. I doubt they were stood there, so I'm leaning towards there being no offence here.

Just one question for the OP though. You will have been asked something along the lines of 'if I'd not stopped you today, do you agree that the fare would've gone unpaid?'. How did you answer this question?

I answered this question: I would have gone over to the ticket machine right over there and purchased a ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Thank you so much for all the advice! I am feeling much better now.

 

[Ferret]

I answered this question: I would have gone over to the ticket machine right over there and purchased a ticket.

Good answer. I can't see any breach of byelaw 18, there's no evidence of a s5 Regulation of Railways Act offence as far as can be ascertained. So, all that remains is to write back, thanking them for their letter, pointing out that there were no facilities to purchase a ticket on the train or at Swinton, offering to pay the Swinton-Sheffield fare as you would have at the time and indeed offered to do, and asking to whom should a cheque be made payable. I'd keep it simple for now, until EMT agree that you haven't done anything wrong...

Edit: for the benefit of the OP, the fare for Swinton-Sheffield single ticket in Avantix is £3.60. You should not pay a penny more.

 

[RJ]

Not saying that I agree about this condition which I don't it is one of a few points in there which I was going to send an email about being incorrect or agaisnt the NRCOCs

I really wouldn't bother, unless you're on their payroll or have been directly affected by their departure from the rules they're supposed to follow.