More than four in 10 trains are late

[Ferret]

I'm actually shocked at this news cearly unlike everyone else here, really shows how bad punctuality on UK railways is!

Really? How late was your last car journey based on when satnav said you'd arrive?!

 

[radamfi]

If your trip involves going around the M25 then down the M4, if you are delayed on the M25, you can still get on the M4 immediately after leaving the M25. Trains, on the other hand, need to be on time because of the need to make connections.

 

[jon0844]

I tend to drive at the speed limit, as recommended by the Insitute of Advance Motorists (as in, unless there's a good reason not to - drive at the limit). I don't buy the 'a speed limit is a limit not a target' argument at all - as it's just an excuse for people who are too timid to drive, or are selfish enough to take it easy when others wish to make progress.

Thus, if something happens, going faster for me will mean nothing else than illegally speeding. I am not going to lie and say that I don't nudge over the limit at times, but that's not a serious suggestion of how to ensure being on time. How fast would you need to go if you were stuck in a jam for 30 minutes after a nasty accident ahead?! No, there are many, many times when I've been very late because of problems on the road - sometimes problems that aren't even problems, like huge queues because people were slowing down to look at a broken down vehicle on the hard shoulder or two lanes merging into one, with nobody aware of the 'merge in turn' rule.

However, when you're in your own car, you tend to feel in control of things. In reality, you might well end up totally stuck and unable to get off the road or turn around - but you still have ultimate responsibility for your actions. You can also, as many people do, break rules that a railway driver cannot.

I like the idea of a reading of late measured based on a percentage of the overall route... thus making an XC that has done a 400 hour journey and arrived 20 minutes late not as bad as a 30 minute commuter service arriving 10 minutes late. I'd also like to see measurements based at points along a route, as it's no good having a commuter train that has got everyone late to their station along the way, but thanks to padding, is counted as on time at the terminal station.

 

[craigwilson]

...an XC that has done a 400 hour journey and arrived 20 minutes late...

Crikey!! hock: I assume you mean 400 miles?

 

[LexyBoy]

Don't know, I've been on a few that felt like 400 hours...

 

[Zerothebrake!]

Don't know, I've been on a few that felt like 400 hours...

Take the car next time then.

 

[AndyLandy]

For me, it really is just the connection issue that's my bugbear with the whole thing. I've had a few occasions where a train has arrived 10 minutes late, but meant I've missed a connection for an hourly service, so I end up having to spend the best part of an hour waiting for the next train.

This is even more frustrating when you miss the last train of the night. It's never been catastrophic, but there have been times where I've had to be picked up from Crewe, or go on to Runcorn, since the last Hartford train had already left by the time I arrived at Crewe.

Of course, the most frustrating thing is when I'm on a delayed Incercity service and it's stuck behind the local service I want to connect to! I've had that happen once or twice.

What's the rules on Delay Repay in the circumstance when your whole journey is an hour late, but no individual train service was running any later than 15 minutes?

 

[calc7]

What's the rules on Delay Repay in the circumstance when your whole journey is an hour late, but no individual train service was running any later than 15 minutes?

The delay paid out on is your actual arrival time versus your expected arrival time at destination.

So if your final leg is an hourly connection that you miss by 5 minutes due to the express being delayed by 15, then you are treated as having an hour's delay.

 

[jon0844]

Crikey!! hock: I assume you mean 400 miles?

No, I've seen the timetable.

 

[LexyBoy]

For a true figure, it should be delayed journeys rather than delayed services which count. This would mean that delays at intermediate stations are counted, and missed connexions become much more significant. It would probably be a lot more work to do, unless quite a few assumptions were made.

Take the car next time then.

Which car is this? Also, it was a joke!

 

[90019]

Really? How late was your last car journey based on when satnav said you'd arrive?!

I normally spend most of my journey with the ETA on my satnav getting gradually earlier.

A reasonable compromise would be to use the standard 5 minutes leeway that already applies to shorter distance trains.

It got a bit tedious standing on the platform at Pitlochry waiting on a train that the screens were adamant was on time, watching the time gradually ticking away.
It eventually turned up just shy of 10 minutes late.

 

[AndyLandy]

It got a bit tedious waiting on the platform at Pitlochry waiting on a train that the screens were adamant was on time, watching the time gradually ticking away.
It eventually turned up just shy of 10 minutes late.

That's another particular peeve of mine. You're at the station 15 minutes before your train is due. It shows as on-time. It's 10 minutes before it's due, now it's showing as 2 minutes delayed. It's 5 minutes before it's due, it's now showing 5 minutes delayed. You get to the due time, and now it's showing as 10 minutes late. Eventually, it shows up, 20 minutes late.

I suspect this is caused by a train losing its paths and having to be squeezed back in, but it's frustrating, particularly when it shows as on-time and the delay minutes slowly creep up. If there were a way to tell us right from the outset that it's likely to be 20 minutes late, I could head over to the coffee shop and wait there instead.

 

[brompton rail]

The on time arrival time or otherwise is important for connections.

As an example of that, and the lack of joined up operations on today's railways:-

Animals on the line in the Church Fenton area this morning caused disruption between York and Leeds and resulted in line closure for a while. XC diverted their services away fromLeeds and via Doncaster to Sheffield. This resulted in the 07.45 and 08.45 Plymouth bound services calling at Doncaster, where passengers were advised to change for Leeds.

On the 08.45 we were scheduled to call at Doncaster(platform 4) at 09.10. There is a 09.12 service EC service to Leeds (from adjacent platform 8). Actual arrival from York was 09.13 and we passed the 09.12 to Leeds as it pulled out as we ran into the platform. The next Leeds train is 09.26 stopper which arrives Leeds after 10.10. In an organised railway NETWORK the 09.12 would have been delayed by several minutes to allow the connection and probably still arrived Leeds right time due to recovery minutes. However is our competitive, non joined up times, the delay to XCs passengers is of no concern to EC who would have incurred delay minutes by holding their train. Perhaps the saddest comment is though that no one at East Coast would have even thought about holding their service!

Oh!, the final irony ..... The next XC - 09.45 ex York, ran direct to Leeds as booked, right time, thus testing there before the passengers from the earlier train who had travelled via Doncaster.

 

[Ferret]

I normally spend most of my journey with the ETA on my satnav getting gradually earlier.

Is your first name Jenson, Lewis, or Sebastien per chance?

 

[jon0844]

I normally spend most of my journey with the ETA on my satnav getting gradually earlier.

Hehe, yes that's quite common!

That's another particular peeve of mine. You're at the station 15 minutes before your train is due. It shows as on-time. It's 10 minutes before it's due, now it's showing as 2 minutes delayed. It's 5 minutes before it's due, it's now showing 5 minutes delayed. You get to the due time, and now it's showing as 10 minutes late. Eventually, it shows up, 20 minutes late.

One big problem is that trains aren't linked, so when an inbound train is late (or even cancelled), the return service will show as 'on time' right up until the due time has passed by a minute - when it either shows as delayed, '1 minute late' or 'cancelled'. The latter almost certainly having to be done manually by someone.

If there was some link, then a cancelled inbound train would already flag up the new service as being cancelled (unless there's a way to get another train in to run it, which would then be done manually) and people wouldn't stand waiting ages for a train that appears to be just fine but doesn't exist.

I have no idea if there's any chance of this issue being addressed, but it would certainly improve the reliability of the information given. It would also make it possible to get a better clue in advance of your chances of making a connection, by not misleading you into thinking a train is going to run on time until it's maybe too late to do anything (like jump in a cab to another train station or whatever).

 

[87015]

One big problem is that trains aren't linked, so when an inbound train is late (or even cancelled), the return service will show as 'on time' right up until the due time has passed by a minute - when it either shows as delayed, '1 minute late' or 'cancelled'. The latter almost certainly having to be done manually by someone.

If there was some link, then a cancelled inbound train would already flag up the new service as being cancelled (unless there's a way to get another train in to run it, which would then be done manually) and people wouldn't stand waiting ages for a train that appears to be just fine but doesn't exist.

I have no idea if there's any chance of this issue being addressed, but it would certainly improve the reliability of the information given.

Thats down to the TOC and its systems. For the majority of trains, there is certainly an association in downstream systems with the next/previous working(s) which a CIS system can read off - but it tends to be a "costed option" so the TOC has to pay for it - some do others don't...

 

[jon0844]

Ah, interesting.

When I asked FCC they said it couldn't be done. Now I wonder if they meant it can't be done, or they can't do it because they haven't paid...!

 

[90019]

Is your first name Jenson, Lewis, or Sebastien per chance?

Depends on the road.


Seriously, though, my satnav seems to calculate arrival time using a lower speed than the limit on each road, so it can be quite easy to make up a lot of time.
I drove down to Leamington a while back, and despite sitting in traffic for 45 minutes on the M6 due to a crash, I still arrived earlier than the original ETA when I left Edinburgh.

 

[bronzeonion]

Really? How late was your last car journey based on when satnav said you'd arrive?!

No idea, but road and rail transport is different. With road transport you will get traffic jams that the satnav did not know about, road works, accidents that hold you up etc but with rail transport you dont get any of that (on a regular basis) and when you do get engineering work lines are closed and a special timetable put in place. Whats the point of putting times to the minute down on timetables if nobody expects a train to arrive at the time written down, why not just put 'should arrive between 1005 and 1010 and if it doesnt meh who cares!

 

[michael769]

Sat-navs time calculations are a bit conservative. Probably to avoid accusations of encouraging people to drive too fast.

 

[WestCoast]

Sat-navs time calculations are a bit conservative. Probably to avoid accusations of encouraging people to drive too fast.

Depends on the manufacturer in my experience. I've had two Garmin sat-navs which have been on the conservative side with timings, whereas a Navigon sat-nav (now part of Garmin) I had was rather overoptimistic to say the least (it wasn't a cheap one either!). Even with all the settings appropriately adjusted, it gave me a time of 1h25m Preston to York once, if you know the A59, you'll know that's just not possible.

Anyway, I'd say to compare rail against car journeys is just not appropriate. Personal car journeys don't have published schedules, nor do they involve any sort of 'connection' which may be as short as 3-10 minutes. I accept that short delays are inevitable and it doesn't bother me as that just a fact of travelling. However, when you live on a lower frequency branch line like I do, a short delay on the longer sector can cause you to miss your connection and delay a total journey time by at least an hour. Connections aren't held because of the penalties and knock on effects of doing so.

I think the way PPM figures are calculated is quite important. A while back there was a thread comparing what appeared to be the UK's favourable on-time rail performance against 'poorer' mainland European counterparts. Only when you looked at the stricter criteria for on-time measurement did a more accurate reflection become possible.

 

[Ferret]

No idea, but road and rail transport is different. With road transport you will get traffic jams that the satnav did not know about, road works, accidents that hold you up etc but with rail transport you dont get any of that (on a regular basis) and when you do get engineering work lines are closed and a special timetable put in place. Whats the point of putting times to the minute down on timetables if nobody expects a train to arrive at the time written down, why not just put 'should arrive between 1005 and 1010 and if it doesnt meh who cares!

Accidents, road works, traffic jams, car breakdown v signal failures, trespass, passengers slow to board and train failures. One day as a nation, we might all grow up a little and be adult enough to realise that when travelling by any mode, the odd delay might occur due to something unexpected. Until then, we'll keep moaning about it....

 

[AndyLandy]

Accidents, road works, traffic jams, car breakdown v signal failures, trespass, passengers slow to board and train failures. One day we might all grow up a little and be adult enough to realise that when travelling by any mode, the odd delay might occur due to something unexpected. Until then, we'll keep moaning about it....

I've been travelling by rail semi-regularly for the last 12 years or so now. When I first started in 2000, the system was incredibly unreliable. Old, unmaintained ex-BR stock; failing left, right and centre. Arrival within 30 mins of the scheduled arrival time was a positive result. This remained the case up until about 2005-ish. I was submitting Delay Repay claims for probably over 50% of the journeys I was making.

Since then, reliability has improved massively. I've not submitted a DR claim in at least the last 3 years, possibly even longer. Delays do occasionally still occur, but I've found that staff are very good at keeping passengers informed these days and it's rare that a service is delayed by as much as half an hour.

 

[WestCoast]

I've been travelling by rail semi-regularly for the last 12 years or so now. When I first started in 2000, the system was incredibly unreliable. Old, unmaintained ex-BR stock; failing left, right and centre. Arrival within 30 mins of the scheduled arrival time was a positive result. This remained the case up until about 2005-ish. I was submitting Delay Repay claims for probably over 50% of the journeys I was making.

Since then, reliability has improved massively. I've not submitted a DR claim in at least the last 3 years, possibly even longer. Delays do occasionally still occur, but I've found that staff are very good at keeping passengers informed these days and it's rare that a service is delayed by as much as half an hour.

I find it hard to generalise, I do think that in general service levels have improved but the extent to which this has occurred varies. I'm split between Lancs and West Midlands now. Much of Northern's stock is the same as FNW in 2000 (all ex-BR), although punctuality and service is better. I'm on the Cross City Line when in Birmingham which is notoriously unreliable. I go expecting the worst, although thankfully the service is very frequent! I have submitted 4 DR claims to LM in as many months.

 

[317666]

Another thing to consider is that, with a car, if you're worried about being late you can always leave 10 minutes earlier or whatever. With railways, especially on lines with an hourly or even two-hourly frequency, you can't do that. Although I don't drive and would happily take the train somewhere over road transport any day, I think that punctuality should be measured so that five minutes counts as late, regardless of service type.

 

[infobleep]

I regularly catch the evening Harrow and Wealdstone services to Euston. It is rare that they are on time any day of the week. Southern services to Clapham Junction are rarely late Nd if they are it's down to London Midland being late.

These delays tend to be 2-4 minutes but up to 10 minutes is no u heard of. At no time does anyone apologise or say why the train is late. Online there is no reason given either.

now I have to travel using the underground to reach Waterloo and because of the generous allowances, and far greater than TFL allow, if you use their online journey checker, I'm never lTe into Guildford.

However if London Midland did run their trains in time I would on average save 60-100 minutes a week on my commuting time, a journey of 1 hour 30 would become just 1 hour 10 minutes. Not much per day but it soon mounts up when combined,

now if London Midland Re lTe almost every day, why don't they change their timetables to allow for this?

Then you get the other examples here passengers can arrive into London Waterloo when the train crew are late. The train Crewe for the 7.17 fast service are expected to arrive into Waterloo at 7.50 I believe. The passengers 7.54, yet both are in the same train. It's not physically possible. The 8.11 arrival is often described by the guard as 8.09. What he should be saying is 8.11 but it's not his fault that he's given different timings.

This wouldn't matter until a passenger tries to claim for a delay and is told no your train was only 58 minutes late. I know someone who was told there south Eastern train was only 28 minutes late so they didn't qualify for a delay payment. His Rgument was that his train was regularly 2 minutes early so it was effectively late.

 

[Tibbs]

Recently during the peak at Chelmsford the driver closed the doors ready to depart, a passenger physically forced the door to stay open to make sure his mate who was late could get on. After this the interlock system on the door was knackered so the train had to be declared a failure. This being at Chelmsford caused major delays and the company was slated for another train failure even though it was caused by a passenger. And like other ppl have said how many bus and car journeys during rush hour are made to within a minute of the specified arrival time. Also if you are stuck in a traffic jam for hours do you get Delay Repay?

Then they need to buy trains with doors that can cope with bring held open.

 

[Roverman]

Then they need to buy trains with doors that can cope with bring held open.

No people need to stop being mindless vandals.

I had a customer once, whilst I was repairing an ATM, ignore the fact it was switched off, ignored the sign on the screen saying 'out of service' and forced the debit card into the slot. I say forced, as when they are out of a service a plastic tab moves up to stop people putting their cards in, this 'gentleman' ignored this too and pushed his card in so much force it broke the tab and the mechanism and the card flew through the slot and caught me on the forehead as I was fixing the ATM. He then had the temerity to storm into my branch ranting and raving that the machine had 'swallowed his card and it must be fraud call the police etc'. I picked up his card from where it had landed after bouncing off my head passed it to a colleague sat behind the counter and asked her to find me the name and address of the customer. The man walks over saying 'it doesn't need posting I am here, give it to me now'. I smiled and said 'We need the address to send the bill to for wrecking the machine mate' I then turned to my colleague and said 'make sure it goes back 2nd class, I don't want to be accused of wasting public money' and walked off to have my cut head seen to.

 

[Dave1987]

Then they need to buy trains with doors that can cope with bring held open.

You have got to be kidding me. Are you serious? The train was on time before this passenger did this. The doors were half closed are forced them back open again to let his mate on who was late he ended up delaying 000's of people and the company got the blame.

 

[johnnychips]

Been on the mid-Cheshire lines twice in the last three weeks and been delayed by 9 minutes both times, once Chester-Stockport, where I assume there's no "padding" as the train continues to Manchester and once Stockport-Chester, where I assume there is. Two things struck me:

1) When the Pacer stopped, it seemed to take a good 10-15 seconds before the doors would open, and this didn't seem to be due to any tardiness on behalf of the guard. May not seem much, but on a line with about 10 stops...

2) At about four stations there were so many passengers boarding and alighting, there was sometimes a three minute wait at stations.

There was also a very slow section over a viaduct west of Northwich, but I'm not sure if this was normal or was a temporary thing.

In both cases, neither the guards and drivers' actions could be faulted, nor the performance of the Pacers, which seemed to be doing their best.

So should you pad out the timetable to allow this and be more realistic, and face criticism that trains are getting slower; or run an optimistic timetable that I'm sure the mid-Cheshire could run to on a wet Wednesday midday service?