Do I need to give up my seat?

[AlexS]

Make a claim for what?

To quote the EMT passenger charter as an example, if you have a seat reservation and are unable to find a seat for all or part of your journey, you can claim compensation of 25% of that part of the journey ticket price. This is fairly standard across TOCs that offer reservations, I believe.

 

[yorkie]

...Before reading this thread, if I were seated and someone came along with a ticket and seat reservation then I would get up and give them their seat, I would also expect the same action from someone occupying my seat if I had the ticket with the seat number reserved printed on it....

It falls down when you consider that the vast majority of passengers use non-Advance tickets and use the railways as a convenient mode of on-demand travel and not as an airline.

I'd not expect a parking space to be reserved if it didn't have a notice on it to that effect, and many other similar examples could be given. Anything that is available 'on demand' and does not require pre-booking should not force someone to have to move seat with no warning potentially every 5 minutes!

Surely the problem here is that if there are no announcements made....

That is the problem. Guards should announce this.

Hmm ... on a number of occasions on DB I have taken a meal in the restaurant car before going to my reserved seat. I have never had any problem claiming the reserved seat ... maybe that is just down to the natural politeness of German rail travellers.

Or you being polite when asking If someone who has a need for a seat asked me nicely to give up their seat as a favour because they needed it, then I am far more likely to give up a seat than someone who rudely demands it.

I would expect that. If I have a little card in my hand that says I have seat C18 booked on the 15:26 between Leamington and Manchester, then if I get on that train I'd expect to be able to sit there. If the TOC hasn't labelled the seat, then it's unfortunate for the person sat there, but surely my holding the little card should be the decider?

Say you live in Penzance, you have to urgently get to London to see an ill relative. You buy a ticket to London for immediate travel. There are no reservations on the train. But just before departure someone turfs you out, you'd move? And at St Erth, someone again tries to turf you out, you'd move again? And at Cambourne, someone else wants your seat, so you'd move a third time? The train then gets to Redruth, the same happens, you'd move again? Then you get to Truro... I won't list the other stops, but, you're telling me at every station you'd be prepared move from one apparently unreserved seat to another unreserved seat? Seriously?

... i got on the train and went to my seat and a businessman was sitting there.

so i asked him to move ...

Were reservations provided on the train and your seat had your reservation details on it and you held the coupon for it? If so, clearly you were in the right. However if an equivalent alternative is available it's best for the Train Manager to use their judgement to avoid confrontation. If a suitable seat was not available then the Train Manager would need to either ensure one was provided or else you would have a valid complaint in which case I'd then contact Customer Services... but only after the TM was given every opportunity to provide a suitable alternative.

And, of the members of the public, which should be inconvenienced for this - the passenger who has taken all steps available to him to ensure that he has a seat for his journey, or the passenger who has not but has bagged the seat anyway?

And, of the members of the public, which should be inconvenienced for this - the passenger (A) who knew in advance they could only take that train and got a reservation in the anticipation it would be honoured but on the understanding it could not be guaranteed (as per NRCoC), or the passenger (B) who bought an appropriate ticket to allow flexibility of train with the hope that they could get a seat but an equal understanding that it could not be guaranteed, who on boarding discovered that no reservations were in force on the train and therefore had no way of knowing which seats were originally reserved and which were not and therefore sat in an appropriate seat on the understanding that this was effectively an unreserved train (which most trains are!) and therefore the reasonable expectation that someone would not randomly ask them to vacate their seat at any station en route?

Not quite the same question when you consider it like that, is it?

Remember there are statistically far more people are in the position of passenger B than A.

 

[Greenback]

The difficulty is where do you draw the line. Suppose a seat is reserved between Birmingham International and Manchester Piccadilly, is it lost if not reclaimed by Birmingham New Street? Or Wolves? Or Stafford? Or Stockport?

The seat should not be lost at all! If I have a reserved seat and the train has standees, I would not mind someone using my seat while I battled my way to the toilet, probably waited for it to become vacant, used the facilities and battled my way through the crowd to get back again. Especially if I had to walk through a coach or two to find a working toilet!

I certainly would mind if I got back and someone refused ot move out my seat, and quoted a rule that doesn't even exist!

I am old enough to remember when there was an awful lot of compartment stock around the network, and one of the nice thigns about those carriages was the chance to stand up and look out of the window for a bit. It's probably a good thing that these have all gone, if I am now in dange rof losing a seat because I have popped out of the quiet coach to make a phone call between Birmingham International and New Street!

(Not that I would do that )

If a seat is already claimed, I do not see it unreasonable for the occupant to regain it after a period of temporary absence.

Ah, so did you mean claimed rather than unclaimed earlier? Even so, suppose you buiy a ticket with the intention of starting short, and get a seat reservation at the same time. What if your ticket is from International, but you always intended to board at Wolverhampton? Or Stafford? If your seat is marked up as reserved, would you be entitled to insist that anyone occupying your seat vacates it? I think this is where the muddiest waters are likely to be!

I don't agree with this. As I said on the last thread about this my interpretation of the rule is that your seat is reserved from Station A all the way to Station B not from Station A to somewhere just after Station A. So whilst it is entirely reasonable to occupy an unoccupied reserved seat, you should be prepared to vacate if the reservation holder arrives to claim it. Even if they act like a child and shout at you.

I agree with this interpretation!

I personally agree with Ian, however there is nothing stopping you politely asking the reservation holder to show you their reservation coupon before giving up the seat. Personally, I don't bother querying it if they've got on at the station stated on the ticket/screen, but will always ask if they get on after the supposed starting station.

I can't diagree with this view either!

Yet again, a discussion about passengers has come down to the By-laws and other rules that operate against the passengers interests. If I have taken the trouble to identify a particular train and reserve a seat in advance, then I believe that transaction with the company should be honoured (despite it being free of monetary value). If I do not reserve, then I am happy to take my chance.

I agree that reservations should be honoured, but that is between the supplier and the consumer - if the supplier does not supply the service (the reservation label or screen) it has nothing to do with an innocent bystander.

And I believe that if I board a train without a reservation and there is nothing to indicate that a seat is reserved, I am entitled to sit in it.

Quite. The crux being that there is nothing to show the seat is reserved.

If you have a reservation card that says you have seat C18 booked, all that indicates is that the train operator intended to arrange to keep that seat for you. If the reservations slips haven't been put out or the electronic display is not working, the operator has failed to arrange for the seat to be kept for you so anyone can sit there.

Agreed.

 

[bb21]

The seat should not be lost at all! If I have a reserved seat and the train has standees, I would not mind someone using my seat while I battled my way to the toilet, probably waited for it to become vacant, used the facilities and battled my way through the crowd to get back again. Especially if I had to walk through a coach or two to find a working toilet!

That would then be temporary absence. On a crowded train, if a passenger leaves his seat and goes to the toilet or the buffet, there will be others nearby who would be able to point out to whoever sitting down that it was already taken. Even if not, upon the return of the original passenger, I would be very happy to give the seat back. If there is no one nearby to point that out, the train is likely to be fairly empty anyway so it would not have been an issue.

Ah, so did you mean claimed rather than unclaimed earlier? Even so, suppose you buiy a ticket with the intention of starting short, and get a seat reservation at the same time. What if your ticket is from International, but you always intended to board at Wolverhampton? Or Stafford? If your seat is marked up as reserved, would you be entitled to insist that anyone occupying your seat vacates it? I think this is where the muddiest waters are likely to be!

Yes, I think "claimed" would have been a more appropriate term.

If someone intends to start short, then they should not have reserved a seat from a station for part of a journey they do not require. If they hold a walk-on ticket, they should have made the appropriate reservation. If they hold an Advance ticket then this is not permitted anyway.

Reservation is not always possible, perhaps the train was already fully reserved, or perhaps it was too late to reserve a seat on the chosen service when the ticket was purchased. Considering the proportion of reserved seats that are not taken on any given service, it would be a rather ridiculous situation that passengers without reservations should stand while maybe half the seats are unoccupied in case the person holding the reservation turns up halfway through their journey.

Given that there is no explicit rules written down either way, I fear this might just be one of those issues where people will disagree on.

 

[SussexMan]

And, of the members of the public, which should be inconvenienced for this - the passenger (A) who knew in advance they could only take that train and got a reservation in the anticipation it would be honoured but on the understanding it could not be guaranteed (as per NRCoC)

Which bit of the NRCoC are you quoting from Yorkie? The section about reservations says clearly that they are guaranteed.

40. Reserving seats
Seats in some trains can be reserved before you travel and you may have to pay a fee. Unless you have a seat reservation, the Train Companies do not guarantee to provide a seat for your journey. You must have a valid ticket for your journey before reserving a seat. Eachticket allows you to reserve no more than one seat per person for each part of your journey.

 

[cuccir]

It's quite clear that if reservations aren't indicated and the seats aren't available, that the TOC has failed to honour the reservation as stated in the NRCOC:

Train Companies and other Ticket Sellers must... Give you, if you ask, a full refund, if you find out after you bought your ticket that your journey is going to be delayed, your train has been cancelled or that your seat reservation will not be honoured.

Of course, what they refund is likely to be nothing given that

If a seat reservation, sleeper reservation or cycle reservation is not honoured, the Train Company responsible will refund any reservation fee paid.

Despite this, most TOCs offer some sort of % refund, as has been stated in this thread already.

However, Bylaw 19 states:

Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place

It is only an offence to occupy a reserved seat if a notice indicates that it is reserved.

So, while failure to honour the reservation is a problem, it is between the reservation holder and the TOC. This should not affect the third party who is now occupying the seat - they are fully entitled to do so and are breaking neither the bylaws nor the NRCOC.

 

[mrkjd]

Thanks to everybody who has contributed to this thread - it appears my particular case was fairly straightforward but slight changes in circumstances can quickly muddy the waters!

The stand-out issue from this debate in my view is the policy of some train companies enforcing "invisible reservations". Despite the growing length of this thread I still can't understand how the company could enforce this given bylaw 19 is clear on a notice of some form having to be provided at the seat. Can individual TOC's conditions of carriage terms supersede this bylaw? If so, can somebody post a link to an example of such a condition

 

[maniacmartin]

On XC, the notice is provided on the electronic display - it just isn't provided when you first sit down.

 

[mrkjd]

On XC, the notice is provided on the electronic display - it just isn't provided when you first sit down.

Once I sit down in an available seat (no reserved notice / display) as a passenger without a reservation then I have legitimately taken it for my journey under the conditions of carriage. I know having a ticket doesn't guarantee me a seat but that is not the same thing as saying I must physically give up a seat I have legitimately taken.

That begs the question - is it reasonable for a train company to process a reservation request for a seat that has been taken by another passenger earlier? If the train company is to offer reservations then it should have a robust system that does not result in this situation. If they can't manage it - they shouldn't be able to offer reservations in the first place.

Where this may differ from my original post is that the onus on challenging the situation was with the reservation holder (not the sitter) in my case (no reservation notice on the seats). In the hypothetic example above however, if the reservation holder has a ticket confirming his seat and the seat (belatedly)displays a notice, then the onus changes to the sitter to challenge the situation. Would people agree with this or is possession really 9/10ths of the law in this case and you'd stay firmly put!

This has been an interesting discussion and one which throws light on a seemingly poorly managed reservations process in the case of those operators who prefer to run an "invisible reservations" policy. Although in reality conflicts can probably be resolved amicably 90% of the time this should not detract from the fact that the train companies have a duty to ensure the procedures they have in place are adequate.

 

[Oswyntail]

... bylaw 19 is clear on a notice of some form having to be provided at the seat. ...

It doesn't actually say that, does it? It could be argued (and, IIRC, has been earlier in the thread) that the passenger's reservation slip is itself "notice" - especially given the propensity of by-laws relying on documentation that may be elsewhere!
But the nub of the problem is what the TOC should do about it? If I have reserved a seat from Aberdeen to Penzance on a rammed 5-car Voyager, I do not want compensation later, I need a seat today. In which case, IMHO, it is up to the train staff, as representatives of the TOC, to ensure the TOC part of the transaction is honoured. I can think of two ways to achieve this - turfing the unreserved passenger out or upgrading is available.

 

[Robsignals]

The XC case is an example of the NRCoC, Byelaws etc not keeping up with technology which don't cover the situation where, unknown to the unsuspecting occupant, a seat becomes 'Reserved' during the journey, an electronically displayed reservation may have no validity at all! There's a fundamental unfairness in it being impossible for passengers and probably TM's to know what was displayed when the seat was occupied by a passenger without a reservation.

What is the reason for offering reservations anyway? Passengers able to plan ahead get preferential treatment over those who may have paid a lot more for flexibility, does that make sense? It's surprising that TOC's don't use reservations to generate more revenue by charging £5+ but there's a general trend to question instructions given by those in 'authority' and if no good reason is seen ignore them. This is likely to become an increasing problem when TM's tell someone to vacate a seat which was empty when they boarded and I doubt it's realistic or appropriate to try charging a penalty.

Perhaps the approach taken by Southern for instance is better and abolish reservations entirely. Some areas are marked "Priority Seats" for the disabled or elderly, pregnant and new mothers plus fathers with infants and a card is issued to those eligible that they show people asking them to vacate the seats and notices point out that a disability or need for a seat may not be obvious, they've won an award for the scheme. Advance Tickets specify the train but holders have to find seats the same way as everyone else, perhaps a fairer way. On long distance routes some areas could be marked as "Reserved for 'Anytime' Ticket holders" (a sort of 2nd Class) but probably not practical to enforce.

 

[mrkjd]

But it does say that.....

any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is
reserved for a specified ticket holder

It also specifies that the reservation holders ticket is NOT the reservation but merely evidence that they have the right to take up the reserved place.

I agree that an upgrade to either the sitter (if he has to move) or the reservation holder (if his seat isn't available) would help resolve an issue that is, at root, caused by the TOC's poorly implemented reservation policy

There's a fundamental unfairness in it being impossible for passengers and probably TM's to know what was displayed when the seat was occupied by a passenger without a reservation

Yes - and this is why the system employed by the TOC should be robust enough to cover such scenarios. I can see no reason why we are subjected to all this speculation and musical chairs. And all this probably reflects why there is no charge to make a reservation.

 

[Greenback]

That would then be temporary absence. On a crowded train, if a passenger leaves his seat and goes to the toilet or the buffet, there will be others nearby who would be able to point out to whoever sitting down that it was already taken. Even if not, upon the return of the original passenger, I would be very happy to give the seat back. If there is no one nearby to point that out, the train is likely to be fairly empty anyway so it would not have been an issue.

Yes, that is correct. In the vast majority of cases common sense will apply and people nearby will know that the seat is only temproarily vacant.

My point, really, is that it can be a bit of a problem when someone believes that there is some rule whereby a seat can be taken shortly after departure from the origin station shown on any reservation label. If taken too literally, that could cause problems!

The common sense approach is that if I sit in a seat that is reserved from Llanelli to Cardiff on leaviong Llanelli, I am quite prepared to vacate it if the person has got on at the wrong end of the train and has taken a while to find their carriage and seat.

Yes, I think "claimed" would have been a more appropriate term.

If someone intends to start short, then they should not have reserved a seat from a station for part of a journey they do not require. If they hold a walk-on ticket, they should have made the appropriate reservation. If they hold an Advance ticket then this is not permitted anyway.

That is true, but there is always the possibility of an unintended incident of starting short as a result of a last minute change of plans. Is till think that the reservation is valid in those circumstances!

Reservation is not always possible, perhaps the train was already fully reserved, or perhaps it was too late to reserve a seat on the chosen service when the ticket was purchased. Considering the proportion of reserved seats that are not taken on any given service, it would be a rather ridiculous situation that passengers without reservations should stand while maybe half the seats are unoccupied in case the person holding the reservation turns up halfway through their journey.

That's not what I am saying! I want people tot ake up every available seat when they are available, but as soon as the holder of the reservation wants to claim it, they should be allowed to do so. What I don;t want is some kind of urban myth to build up that the reservation becomes void after a certain length of time.

Given that there is no explicit rules written down either way, I fear this might just be one of those issues where people will disagree on.

I don't think we disagree, well not on the main issues anyway. I don't want to see anyone stand unnecessarily, but I don't wan to see people lose their reserved seats unnecessarily based on a non existent rule either!

And I am deliberately avoiding a lot of comment on XC's electronic reservation can of worms!!!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I agree that an upgrade to either the sitter (if he has to move) or the reservation holder (if his seat isn't available) would help resolve an issue that is, at root, caused by the TOC's poorly implemented reservation policy

Yes, I very much agree with that.

Yes - and this is why the system employed by the TOC should be robust enough to cover such scenarios. I can see no reason why we are subjected to all this speculation and musical chairs. And all this probably reflects why there is no charge to make a reservation.

I think that's probably right! In these days of tight turn arounds there will always be times when it is not possible to put the paper reservations out. The priority must be to get the service out again as soon as possible when it is late coming in.

What is disappointing is that there are no enough announcements to tell passnegers that the train is now effectively unreserved, and that anyone can sit anywhere. What is even more disappointing is that the electronic reservations, where they exist, apepar to be very unreliable.

 

[toffeedanish]

With regards XC's reservation displays in this context, the exact wording could be easily amended to prevent confusion.

The current: 'This seat may be reserved' prompts comment such as: 'What? They don't know if it is reserved?' or: 'Well, is it reserved, or isn't it?'; usually followed by something along the lines of: 'What kind of a mickey-mouse train company is this?'.

Changing this to: 'This seat can be reserved en-route' would mean far less ambiguity and be an advertisement for what XC are trying to offer.

 

[maniacmartin]

That still sounds ambiguous.

When I first saw "This seat may be reserved" I thought it meant "You can reserve this seat". I was wondering why I would want to reserve a seat I'm already sitting in. Do I need to reserve it to go to the buffet car? To go the toilet? If so, how?

'This seat can be reserved en-route' doesn't solve that ambiguity. I prefer "Reservable by other passengers from future stops" or similar

 

[bb21]

That's not what I am saying! I want people tot ake up every available seat when they are available, but as soon as the holder of the reservation wants to claim it, they should be allowed to do so. What I don;t want is some kind of urban myth to build up that the reservation becomes void after a certain length of time.

That wasn't actually aimed at you. I should have made that clearer.

 

[AndyLandy]

Does this problem ever occur in 1st on East Coast,Virgin or FGW as I ever only travel off peak normally, or is it restricted to Standard Class ?

I travelled First Class with Virgin a couple of days ago, and someone was sat in my reserved seat. Rather than make a fuss, I just occupied an unreserved seat instead. As it happened, that particular train was pretty full up (Voyagers are too short, even for the Chester runs!)

I challenged them and reclaimed my seat - they then claimed that they had the seat I was in reserved. I did the obvious and whipped out my reservation and challenged them to show me theirs. When produced (with some ill-feeling) I saw that they had seats in Coach C, not A. I pointed it out, but the guy pointed to his seat number which said "34A" (not the precise number) and claimed that meant Coach A. Nothing could shake him from this belief, not even the evidence of the seat-back tickets not matching his journey.

I had something similar recently, a woman was occupying my seat so I asked her to move. She told me she was in the right seat and showed me her reservation, it said B-21A (can't remember the exact number). Seat B-21 was the window seat next to her, she was definitely sat in my seat, B-22. She was having none of it, though. The "A" meant aisle, as far as she was concerned. In the end, I just sought out a seat elsewhere.

With regards XC's reservation displays in this context, the exact wording could be easily amended to prevent confusion.

The current: 'This seat may be reserved' prompts comment such as: 'What? They don't know if it is reserved?' or: 'Well, is it reserved, or isn't it?'; usually followed by something along the lines of: 'What kind of a mickey-mouse train company is this?'.

Changing this to: 'This seat can be reserved en-route' would mean far less ambiguity and be an advertisement for what XC are trying to offer.

Don't XC still offer an "unreserved" coach? They always used to in Virgin's days. Having a system by which you can reserve seats on-the-fly is all well and good. If you can back it up by providing accommodation for travellers without reservations as well, all the better. It seems to me that this is yet another case where simply providing enough information to the passengers is all that's required.

 

[Greenback]

That wasn't actually aimed at you. I should have made that clearer.

No problem!

I've had a few conflicts over the years, both with people having taken my reserved seat, and people trying to claim that I am in their seat. I have absolutely no problem in moving if the seat is indicated as being reserve din some way, and most of the time there is an amicable solution.

Only twice has an issue been unresolved to everyone's satisfaction, and strangely both occasions involved XC...

 

[CC 72100]

Don't XC still offer an "unreserved" coach? They always used to in Virgin's days. Having a system by which you can reserve seats on-the-fly is all well and good. If you can back it up by providing accommodation for travellers without reservations as well, all the better. It seems to me that this is yet another case where simply providing enough information to the passengers is all that's required.

The other day the TM on a 221 was saying head to coach B for unreserved seats, which leads to me to believe that they try to make sure that no reservations are put in coach B (which doesn't exist on 220s), so that in the case of a 4 car turning up, there's not a load of non-existent reservations. The up side to this is that on a 221, coach B is therefore unreserved.

I'm not 100% sure on this, but that's what a TM announced the other day upon departure from Birmingham NS.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You should know by now that when it comes to reservations, XC are a bit 'different' :roll:

 

[Greenback]

You should know by now that when it comes to reservations, XC are a bit 'different' :roll:

I prefer to think of it as 'stupid' rather than different!

 

[TUC]

It does seem entirely unreasonable for seat reservations to be not valid simply because the reservation system on the train has failed. If family with young children has reserved seats so that they can be together or a pregnant woman has for comfort on a long journey why should they be deprived of a seat as long as they can prove it via a reservation coupon?

 

[yorkie]

Don't XC still offer an "unreserved" coach?

Some do, but they don't all have such a coach. However a forum member contacted XC a few months ago about this issue, and someone from XC Customer Services stated "All our services operate a non-reservable carriage which is always the carriage B" and stated that the passenger must have not have realised this. XC did not back down and Customer Focus were as ineffective as usual! There is no effective regulator so nothing we can do about it.

Some TOCs have members on this forum who I can contact to refer things to and resolve issues of this nature, but there is no such contact at XC, but if anyone from XC is reading this and would prefer to work with customers than against them, feel free to contact me!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It does seem entirely unreasonable for seat reservations to be not valid simply because the reservation system on the train has failed.

How so? Is it right that a walk-up passenger from, say, Edinburgh to Birmingham should be forced to move seats at Alnmouth, Berwick, Newcastle, Durham, Darlington, York, Leeds, Wakefield Westgate, Sheffield, Chesterfield, Derby, Burton and Tamworth? That's potentially 13 rounds of "musical chairs". You're entitled to your view but it's clear that most contributors to this thread disagree with it.

If family with young children has reserved seats so that they can be together or a pregnant woman has for comfort on a long journey why should they be deprived of a seat as long as they can prove it via a reservation coupon?

Families with young children catch non-reserveable trains too! If they ask people nicely for a table so they can all be sat together, then many people will give it up on the basis that someone else has a greater need for it. In fact on a trip to/from Scotland a group of 4 of us ended up sat together both ways despite not being reserved to, as other passengers moved to other seats without us even asking. I have offered groups to sit together in similar circumstances and would do so again. The problem is when people DEMAND their "right" to a seat when there is no such right.

On a train without reservations it's a free-for-all but that is the case on MOST trains in the country and it's not a problem most of the time!

As for pregnant women, the "priority seats" cater for that!

By your argument someone with a broken foot could be forced to move a dozen or more times to make way for a family at each stop! How is that reasonable?

 

[Greenback]

It does seem entirely unreasonable for seat reservations to be not valid simply because the reservation system on the train has failed. If family with young children has reserved seats so that they can be together or a pregnant woman has for comfort on a long journey why should they be deprived of a seat as long as they can prove it via a reservation coupon?

Many people will offer to move from their seat without being asked to do so, to allow others to sit together whether or not there are reservations involved. And the majority of passengers will allow pregnant women and the elderly to sit down, again without being asked in the majority of cases.

The problems only really occur when you have the minority insisting that a family should move from their unmarked table seats so that they can claim 'their' reservation. Or when rude people start shouting the odds and demanding their 'rights'.

Fortunately, most people are reasonable, polite and considerate.

 

[AndyLandy]

Fortunately, most people are reasonable, polite and considerate.

I feel this is the key point which underpins the whole debate. So long as this is generally true, the rest doesn't really matter all that much. Who cares who has what reservations if we can all find an amicable solution?

 

[Greenback]

I feel this is the key point which underpins the whole debate. So long as this is generally true, the rest doesn't really matter all that much. Who cares who has what reservations if we can all find an amicable solution?

Indeed, the difficulties I have ever encountered or witnessed have been because people either refuse to move out of a marked seat, or try and evict someone from an unmarked one!

There sort of people tend to be the opposite of courteous and polite anyway.

 

[Seacook]

How so? Is it right that a walk-up passenger from, say, Edinburgh to Birmingham should be forced to move seats at Alnmouth, Berwick, Newcastle, Durham, Darlington, York, Leeds, Wakefield Westgate, Sheffield, Chesterfield, Derby, Burton and Tamworth? That's potentially 13 rounds of "musical chairs". You're entitled to your view but it's clear that most contributors to this thread disagree with it.

I have had a really evil thought. Take a similar journey (with BOJ permitted) but book a new reservation from every stop to the next one.

If anyone tries this, let me know how many arguments it causes.

 

[Deerfold]

I'm on an East Coast service which didn't have very long to turn round. Came into carriege E - only a couple of seat reservations out so I grabbed a seat. The guard then announced that there was not time to put out all reservations but any reservations held would still be valid. So far have seen one chap moved twice from his seat and a women coming up to someone saying "I've had to move as someelse had reserved my seat and this is mine - I wasn't going to bother aas I'd just grabbed a seat but now I don't have one."

 

[Hellfire]

Sitting on a Pendolino at the moment on which he electronic seat reservation system is down. Happens now and again.

As a hypothetical question, if you found someone else in a seat for which you had a confirmed reservation are you entitled to ask them to move and, if they refused, would the TM have any powers to compel them?

 

[Tim R-T-C]

I think it was established in a previous thread that if there are no marked reservations, then sadly all reservations are void.

Although obviously with the electronic systems then there is a chance for the system to come back online, so not sure what happens then...

 

[Phil6219]

I don't know the proper answer here however I wish they would say that if the electronic system is down then reservations go out the window, back when I lived in London and would come home to Manchetser each month I got so fed up with being shifted after the system comes online minutes before departure and after which all the seats are already taken.

Phil