Do I need to give up my seat?

[Seacook]

Since I was on the same train, I will answer these questions.

Thanks for that. I agree with the complaint. It is entirely reasonable to suppose that a seat reserved from the previous stop - even one as close as BHI - is now available. The other passengers can request, but not demand - it is their actions that misled you.

 

[Buttsy]

Coming back from Glasgow to Birmingham New Street once, 4 of us grabbed a table which we knew would be free to Preston (we had advanced tickets spread around the coach). On leaving Glasgow, I saw the conductor remove the reservation tickets (voyager screens not working) on 2 of the seats we booked as 2 people had sat in them at Glasgow. We asked them to move at Preston, which they kindly did, but I now realise it may have been better for us to point out that those were our seats but we were sitting elsewhere so we could play cards etc. and would they be good enough to vacate them when we got to Preston. I now realise we had no real 'right' to ask them to move at all.

 

[jon0844]

Last week I made four trips on FGW (two returns from Paddington to Bristol) on advance tickets. £11.50 from Hatfield to Bristol is, frankly, stupidly cheap.. How much is it from Hatfield to London Terminals at peak time?

Trip to Bristol: Got my seat fine. Seat next to me was reserved from Reading, but nobody boarded and took it.

Trip to Paddington: Train arrived in late, so was turned around without new reservations put out (old ones left on). Got my seat, but was next to someone else who said the train was likely to be pretty empty. It was, so I moved back to an aisle seat soon after we left and sat there. Later on, a passenger got on and said something to me - which I took to be asking if he could sit next to me. I said, of course, and moved so he could get in.

Later I wondered if he'd actually wanted MY seat but didn't ask him. He seemed happy by the window and fell asleep anyway.

(Day two) to Bristol: Got seat fine. Once again, lots of reserved seats that were never used. Person next to me opted this time to move to one, but ended up with someone sitting next to him that was one of those people who likes to spread out... he looked back at me as if to say 'wish I'd stayed where I was' as I now had both seats to myself!

To Paddington: Had to get an earlier train back, so ended up buying a super off-peak single for £30 and had to find an unreserved seat. Once more, lots of reserved seats were never claimed - and as I was coughing a fair bit having picked up a cold by then, nobody wanted to sit next to me!!

It is rather frustrating I can imagine to see many tickets marked as reserved that really aren't, so I presume people are still able (or forced?) to book a specific train even with an open ticket? Or make a reservation and later change it and the existing ones still get put out?

 

[IanD]

Thanks for that. I agree with the complaint. It is entirely reasonable to suppose that a seat reserved from the previous stop - even one as close as BHI - is now available. The other passengers can request, but not demand - it is their actions that misled you.

I don't agree with this. As I said on the last thread about this my interpretation of the rule is that your seat is reserved from Station A all the way to Station B not from Station A to somewhere just after Station A. So whilst it is entirely reasonable to occupy an unoccupied reserved seat, you should be prepared to vacate if the reservation holder arrives to claim it. Even if they act like a child and shout at you.

 

[Mike395]

I personally agree with Ian, however there is nothing stopping you politely asking the reservation holder to show you their reservation coupon before giving up the seat. Personally, I don't bother querying it if they've got on at the station stated on the ticket/screen, but will always ask if they get on after the supposed starting station.

 

[Butts]

Does this problem ever occur in 1st on East Coast,Virgin or FGW as I ever only travel off peak normally, or is it restricted to Standard Class ?

 

[Mark_H]

Problems with reservations can extend to people simply not understanding their tickets. A case in point, from this summer:

Heading to Sheffield on the Transpennine with my daughter, we had adjacent window and aisle seats on a table in A. Train got crowded after Doncaster, with some people standing, although the seats opposite ours were empty.

Returned from a quick bathroom break just before Meadowhall to find a lady sat in my seat, and a man opposite her on the other side of the table, despite my daughter having said the seat was taken, and my stuff being obviously on the table!

I challenged them and reclaimed my seat - they then claimed that they had the seat I was in reserved. I did the obvious and whipped out my reservation and challenged them to show me theirs. When produced (with some ill-feeling) I saw that they had seats in Coach C, not A. I pointed it out, but the guy pointed to his seat number which said "34A" (not the precise number) and claimed that meant Coach A. Nothing could shake him from this belief, not even the evidence of the seat-back tickets not matching his journey.

The truly crazy thing about this, that I only realised after getting off the train, is that the guy had these reservations from Doncaster. He had stood with his wife for a good hour, despite available seats, working himself up into righteous indignation, not challenging me directly for "his" seat, before finally sneaking into my seat when I'd stepped away. Bizarre.

 

[Oswyntail]

Yet again, a discussion about passengers has come down to the By-laws and other rules that operate against the passengers interests. If I have taken the trouble to identify a particular train and reserve a seat in advance, then I believe that transaction with the company should be honoured (despite it being free of monetary value). If I do not reserve, then I am happy to take my chance.

 

[jon0844]

I had to ask someone to move on a Virgin train, and the lady in my seat said I could sit in her seat (which was one row forward on the other side) but I'd gone for a seat with a window and fancied sitting there - not her reserved seat (and what if she was getting off earlier than me, and someone had booked that seat from there?)

I am sure people thought I was just being an arse for asking her (however politely) to move, but surely you don't reserve a seat and then aim to take another seat that looks better?

OR you ask someone. I am sure many people aren't that bothered about a window on a 390 if they travel regularly, so just ask 'excuse me, would anyone care to swap with me as I'd really like to be able to see out?'.

 

[Trog]

In my experience of sitting in reserved seats the reservation holder only turns up about once in every eight to ten journeys. In which case I move on without making a fuss.

The other thing I find about traveling when I do have a reservation is that it is always for an aisle seat with no window, even if on an empty train in the early hours.

 

[jon0844]

I always go for an aisle seat and it's not just to make it unappealing to go by me to get to the window, but simply so I can have a bit of room to stretch my legs out to the aisle, or my arm, or indeed just look around.

I do the same on planes too.

 

[Be3G]

It is rather frustrating I can imagine to see many tickets marked as reserved that really aren't, so I presume people are still able (or forced?) to book a specific train even with an open ticket?

‘Able’ is the best word to use – ticket offices and online journey planners will offer to reserve seats for you with an open ticket, but you don't have to accept. If you choose not to make reservations at the time of booking, they can be made later at a ticket office (in the same manner as for long-distance season tickets), although some TOCs theoretically charge for this service.

 

[elagueesti]

How could someone be made to sit there ? Unless it was an Advance ticket there is no way of knowing whether they held a reservation or not (unless they advertised the fact themselves).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I once did that, in the 'good old days' when the restaurant was open to allcomers

Maybe everyone with an advance ticket (as I presume that most reservations are those made in connection with advance tickets) should be asked to sit there? I don't suggest there is a patrol of the train to check, but I would think making an announcement along the lines of "Would passengers with advance tickets and seat reservations please ensure they are occupying the seat specific on their reservation" would be enough to remedy the problem.

 

[yorkie]

Yet again, a discussion about passengers has come down to the By-laws and other rules that operate against the passengers interests. If I have taken the trouble to identify a particular train and reserve a seat in advance, then I believe that transaction with the company should be honoured (despite it being free of monetary value). If I do not reserve, then I am happy to take my chance.

I don't agree. In most cases most TOCs act in accordance with the interests of the majority of passengers on this issue.

XC appear to implement a policy of being against the interests of the majority of passengers that can potentially cause someone to move seats at every single station, the policy benefits a minority of customers rather than the majority. But they're the exception.

If you have reserved a seat and there is no seat available at all then I've known TMs upgrade people to 1st Class in such circumstances (this is relatively rare though as usually there are seats available but people just don't want to move down the train) and if there really is no seat provision then most operators will issue compensation, which is often quite generous. Some operators will even refund the ticket in full if there is no seat provided even though travel has been provided and there is no entitlement of a seat.

I think that the vast majority of TOCs are sensible and very reasonable on this issue. XC are the exception, but then XCs pricing policy puts many people off travelling with them anyway (if I book far enough ahead even a journey like York-Bristol is cheaper via London). I think XC have basically decided that, as their trains at peak times are so full of people doing relatively short-hops on walk-up tickets, they just want to put people off using them!

 

[snail]

If I have taken the trouble to identify a particular train and reserve a seat in advance, then I believe that transaction with the company should be honoured (despite it being free of monetary value).

And I believe that if I board a train without a reservation and there is nothing to indicate that a seat is reserved, I am entitled to sit in it.

The NRCoC allows for compensation if you hold a reservation and are unable to sit down, as do TOCs' passenger charters. I think TPE will refund half the fare if you have to stand.

If a reservation notice is not displayed your dispute is with the TOC, not the person sitting in the seat. And it's no good arguing that buying a ticket is not an entitlement to a seat, as that's an obscure clause in the NRCoC, which you don't believe in.

 

[gazzak]

This is a difficult one for me because not being a regular rail traveller I would have no idea what the rules were.

Before reading this thread, if I were seated and someone came along with a ticket and seat reservation then I would get up and give them their seat, I would also expect the same action from someone occupying my seat if I had the ticket with the seat number reserved printed on it. Surely the problem here is that if there are no announcements made, then the uninformed traveller such as myself is going to expect the person in the seat to get up without any issues?

Unless you know how these things work then there will be arguments between passengers. I now know and am better informed for future travels, so for me this has been a useful read.

 

[Deerfold]

Now what really gets on my pip, and, unfortunately to say, where I have lost my temper with certain passengers, is when people sit in a reserved seat, despite the fact that one can clearly see it is reserved. In fairness, I am a bit more understanding if an elderly or a disabled passenger made this mistake, as it is obviously a lot more difficult, but a businessman (who I absolutely despise on trains anyway) did this to me last week and it was most irritating. It really is not difficult to see that a seat is reserved; a lot of businessmen, who I find highly ignorant, think they can just sit there anyway and that it is a first-come first-serve basis. Unfortunately, in the case of reserved seats, it isn't.

Wow, there's some fairly sweeping generalisations about businessmen there. How do you think they should travel?

I travel on trains which are often 90% reserved. Sometimes many people do not use their reservations (often businessmen travelling London - Peterborough ). If I remain standing I'm in the way of other passengers so I will sometimes sit in a reserved seat. I'm quite happy to move if the holder of the reservation comes along.

Do you lose your temper if they are simply sat in your reserved seat or only if they refuse to move?

 

[Olympian]

I personally like the Deutsche Bahn policy whereby seat reservations are only kept for up to 15 minutes after the train has departed, so you can't just turn up later in the journey or get on at a (much) later station and claim your original reservation.

 

[sheff1]

I personally like the Deutsche Bahn policy whereby seat reservations are only kept for up to 15 minutes after the train has departed, so you can't just turn up later in the journey or get on at a (much) later station and claim your original reservation.

Hmm ... on a number of occasions on DB I have taken a meal in the restaurant car before going to my reserved seat. I have never had any problem claiming the reserved seat ... maybe that is just down to the natural politeness of German rail travellers.

 

[Amy Worrall]

Before reading this thread, if I were seated and someone came along with a ticket and seat reservation then I would get up and give them their seat, I would also expect the same action from someone occupying my seat if I had the ticket with the seat number reserved printed on it. Surely the problem here is that if there are no announcements made, then the uninformed traveller such as myself is going to expect the person in the seat to get up without any issues?

I would expect that. If I have a little card in my hand that says I have seat C18 booked on the 15:26 between Leamington and Manchester, then if I get on that train I'd expect to be able to sit there. If the TOC hasn't labelled the seat, then it's unfortunate for the person sat there, but surely my holding the little card should be the decider?

The main problem is that Cross Country's little LCD screens are almost never right. It probably doesn't help that I can reserve a seat up to about an hour before departure, even though the train has long since left its origin. Certainly the station staff have implied that if I have a reservation I'm entitled to sit in the seat — not "if I have a reservation and the train's onboard tech works properly".

 

[SWTCommuter]

I would expect that. If I have a little card in my hand that says I have seat C18 booked on the 15:26 between Leamington and Manchester, then if I get on that train I'd expect to be able to sit there. If the TOC hasn't labelled the seat, then it's unfortunate for the person sat there, but surely my holding the little card should be the decider?

The main problem is that Cross Country's little LCD screens are almost never right. It probably doesn't help that I can reserve a seat up to about an hour before departure, even though the train has long since left its origin. Certainly the station staff have implied that if I have a reservation I'm entitled to sit in the seat — not "if I have a reservation and the train's onboard tech works properly".

In this context, the Oxford English Dictionary's definition of 'reserve' v is

To arrange for (a room, seat, ticket, etc.) to be kept for a particular person.

If you have a reservation card that says you have seat C18 booked, all that indicates is that the train operator intended to arrange to keep that seat for you. If the reservations slips haven't been put out or the electronic display is not working, the operator has failed to arrange for the seat to be kept for you so anyone can sit there.

 

[Olympian]

Hmm ... on a number of occasions on DB I have taken a meal in the restaurant car before going to my reserved seat. I have never had any problem claiming the reserved seat ... maybe that is just down to the natural politeness of German rail travellers.

I think you may be right, but it still seems to be a good "official" and consistent policy to avoid potential confrontation if any reserved seats go unclaimed, even if it perhaps doesn't need to be invoked as much as it would no doubt need to be in the UK!

 

[old thumper]

just to add my view of some people sitting in reserved seating!

i had a problem on the 09:21 to london paddington from taunton (first great western) on the 5th of december i got on the train and went to my seat and a businessman was sitting there.

so i asked him to move but he said he had a ticket for that seat and showed his ticket i looked at it and it was for another train so i explained this to him this but he refused to move but by this time the train was moving so their was two seats next to it free so sat myself there.

so to sort it out i took walk along to the train to see the train manager and he came back to me and he checked the man's ticket and he said he was on the wrong train but get this he was allowed to sit in that sit all the way to paddington as we had found two free seats!

i thought that with advance tickets you are told only to sit in the ones you are allocated on your ticket?

so to sum this up i found the train manager did not seam to do his job and the man very arrogant

old thumper

 

[Deerfold]

just to add my view of some people sitting in reserved setting!

i had a problem on the 09:21 to london paddington from taunton (first great western) on the 5th of december i got on the train and went to my seat and a businessman was sitting there.

so i asked him to move but he said he had a ticket for that seat and showed his ticket i looked at it and it was for another train so i explained this to him this but he refused to move but by this time the train was moving so their was two seats next to it free so sat myself there.

so to sort it out i took walk along to the train to see the train manager and he came back to me and he checked the man's ticket and he said he was on the wrong train but get this he was allowed to sit in that sit all the way to paddington as we had found two free seats!

i thought that with advance tickets you are told only to sit in the ones you are allocated on your ticket?

so to sum this up i found the train manager did not seam to do his job and the man very arrogant

old thumper

Was the "businessman" on an advance ticket or did he have an open ticket but reservations for another train?

Presumably things weren't too bad if you found seats. If you had reasons for wanting that seat did you make them clear to the train manager?

 

[Oswyntail]

OK, leaving aside the obscure and self-serving get-out clauses known as the by-laws (etc), who is in the wrong - the passenger who has taken all steps available to him to ensure that he has a seat for his journey, or the TOC who, for reasons of faulty equipment or faulty staff has failed to complete their side of the transaction? And, of the members of the public, which should be inconvenienced for this - the passenger who has taken all steps available to him to ensure that he has a seat for his journey, or the passenger who has not but has bagged the seat anyway?

 

[noddingdonkey]

Of course if the Government would allow and enable the TOCs to operate trains that were of a suitable capacity to suit the demand this wouldn't be an issue.

 

[Deerfold]

Of course if the Government would allow and enable the TOCs to operate trains that were of a suitable capacity to suit the demand this wouldn't be an issue.

Whilst there are many areas which could badly do with more capacity I doubt you'll find many places in the world where there are always spare seats available on every service.

 

[trainophile]

I was once booked Southport to Hereford using a Manchester Piccadilly to Hereford train, only there was flooding on the line between Southport and MAN, so I was re-routed on the Merseyrail network. I actually caught up my original train at Crewe, which was packed, and needless to say someone was in my reserved seat.

As I was 58 at the time, and the occupant was a youngish woman, I did ask if I could claim my seat, and luckily she obliged, moving to the other side of the table to squash up next to her two travelling companions. It wasn't my fault that I couldn't be on the train from MAN, so I didn't feel I should have to stand once I'd managed to reach it.

It is annoying that nowadays ATW not only don't, but won't even when asked, issue a seat res. on Advance tickets. Especially as many of their services state that reserving is recommended. Are Advance ticket users viewed as hoi poloi not worthy of the luxury of a reserved seat? I prefer to think of us as savvy travellers!

 

[Deerfold]

OK, leaving aside the obscure and self-serving get-out clauses known as the by-laws (etc), who is in the wrong - the passenger who has taken all steps available to him to ensure that he has a seat for his journey, or the TOC who, for reasons of faulty equipment or faulty staff has failed to complete their side of the transaction? And, of the members of the public, which should be inconvenienced for this - the passenger who has taken all steps available to him to ensure that he has a seat for his journey, or the passenger who has not but has bagged the seat anyway?

The TOC is clearly at fault. The question is only whether the passenger who has "bagged a seat" should be inconvenienced when they could have quite possibly "bagged" a genuinely unreserved one if they'd been properly labelled - and there may be no free seats left when a reservee requests they vacate the seat.

 

[old thumper]

Was the "businessman" on an advance ticket or did he have an open ticket but reservations for another train?

Presumably things weren't too bad if you found seats. If you had reasons for wanting that seat did you make them clear to the train manager?

i think it was a open ticket and he was booked on another train we were lucky as there was the only two seats left and if there was no seats left i would of kicked up more of a fuss!

also first great western say that advance ticket holders should only sit in your allocated seats and i do always book advance/seats as i am disabled.

then i asked the train manager if it was ok to sit in the other seats so he checked the seats if their was any reservations on them but they had got off before we got on so he said it was ok to sit in them.

its just more the attitude of the person sitting in the seat that made me mad!

old thumper