Calls for new Dawlish avoiding line

[Kali]

The recent flooding closed off any access to Okehampton too.

You'd need to rebuild the entire route; the only bits at mainline standards are Exeter - Cowley Bridge, and Plymouth to whatever the junction is called. The 20 mile missing section probably ends up the cheap bit then... either shoring up the existing route or bypassing the few miles on the coast seems by far the most attractive option. If Okehampton could generate enough traffic for a regular service then why isn't there one already?

 

[yorksrob]

The recent flooding closed off any access to Okehampton too.

You'd need to rebuild the entire route; the only bits at mainline standards are Exeter - Cowley Bridge, and Plymouth to whatever the junction is called. The 20 mile missing section probably ends up the cheap bit then... either shoring up the existing route or bypassing the few miles on the coast seems by far the most attractive option. If Okehampton could generate enough traffic for a regular service then why isn't there one already?

The chances are that those sections will need to be rebuilt anyway at some stage (permanent way doesn't last forever). Why not take the opportunity make a real strategic improvement to services in the West.

 

[John S2]

I haven't ventured SW of Bristol since 1987, so I am not a local just wanting the best for my local area. I do not agree with those that say there is no money for a Dawlish avoiding line. Money can be made available for anything given the necessary political will.
Personally I think a new section of [electrified] line is needed and would rate this as higher priority than Crossrail or HS2 [even though I agree with the principle of each of these].
It is only a matter of time before the existing line is completely washed away by a storm surge. Experts are currently predicting sea level to rise by about 1 metre by the end of this century due to a combination of thermal expansion and ice melt [eg Greenland].
I think it should be higher priority to have a secure line in place for this region than providing second or third lines between places that are already connected.

 

[hello]

how about epetition

 

[PHILIPE]

Duplicated threads here. See "Dawlish Yet again" on this Board also live today on same topic.

 

[Penmorfa]

I haven't ventured SW of Bristol since 1987, so I am not a local just wanting the best for my local area. I do not agree with those that say there is no money for a Dawlish avoiding line. Money can be made available for anything given the necessary political will.
Personally I think a new section of [electrified] line is needed and would rate this as higher priority than Crossrail or HS2 [even though I agree with the principle of each of these].
It is only a matter of time before the existing line is completely washed away by a storm surge. Experts are currently predicting sea level to rise by about 1 metre by the end of this century due to a combination of thermal expansion and ice melt [eg Greenland].
I think it should be higher priority to have a secure line in place for this region than providing second or third lines between places that are already connected.

Was'nt today's problem caused by high winds driving waves over the line? I believe this only happens when the wind is from a south easterly direction - which does'nt happen that often. Would it not be a cheaper option to build an off shore breakwater to take the power out of the waves before they reach the shore? This has been done in other parts of the country affected by such conditions.

 

[Kali]

Yep, you could turn the entire stretch into a somewhat enclosed harbour, or reclaim some land in front of it, or a myriad of ways of dissipating wave energy ( provided it didn't screw up some other area of the coast anyway ). Or build a large wall between the railway & the sea - not that the inhabitants of Dawlish would appreciate that much, I imagine.

If there's going to be an alternative route across Devon I'd really rather it was a new highspeed route rather than reusing an old alignment that just happened to go from one end to the other. What would happen to Newton Abbot, Paignton, Totnes if the eventual aim is to abandon the Dawlish route?

 

[yorksrob]

Yep, you could turn the entire stretch into a somewhat enclosed harbour, or reclaim some land in front of it, or a myriad of ways of dissipating wave energy ( provided it didn't screw up some other area of the coast anyway ). Or build a large wall between the railway & the sea - not that the inhabitants of Dawlish would appreciate that much, I imagine.

If there's going to be an alternative route across Devon I'd really rather it was a new highspeed route rather than reusing an old alignment that just happened to go from one end to the other. What would happen to Newton Abbot, Paignton, Totnes if the eventual aim is to abandon the Dawlish route?

Is the eventual aim to abandon the Dawlish route rather than providing a diversion for severe weather ?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Is the eventual aim to abandon the Dawlish route rather than providing a diversion for severe weather ?

I think any proposals include only the express services taking the direct route to Newton Abbot from Exeter. With the existing line for holiday expresses, occasional peak expresses and mainly local services for the entire stretch.
So no, no proposals at all give abandonment of the dawlish line as an option. Its not like the existing local services are empty!

 

[MarkyT]

Is the eventual aim to abandon the Dawlish route rather than providing a diversion for severe weather ?

Loadings on the existing local services have been very healthy in recent years and overcrowding is not unknown, so I hope the existing route would be retained, but downgraded to a local route and singled along the most vulnerable sea wall and tunnel section around Dawlish. That should reduce maintenance costs and allow the remaining track to be moved to the centre of the formation making it less vulnerable. Retaining the two routes would create the capacity for higher frequency 'Devon Metro' locals which could be overtaken by speeded-up Expresses between Exeter and Newton Abbot, without time consuming loop manoeuvres at Dawlish Warren. Short term closure due to weather/tide effects would only impact the local service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Here's an alternative alignment for Exeter-Newton Abbot, about 5 miles shorter than the existing route and potentially much faster.

http://www.townend.me/files/southdevon.pdf

 

[YorkshireBear]

Loadings on the existing local services have been very healthy in recent years and overcrowding is not unknown, so I hope the existing route would be retained, but downgraded to a local route and singled along the most vulnerable sea wall and tunnel section around Dawlish. That should reduce maintenance costs and allow the remaining track to be moved to the centre of the formation making it less vulnerable. Retaining the two routes would create the capacity for higher frequency 'Devon Metro' locals which could be overtaken by speeded-up Expresses between Exeter and Newton Abbot, without time consuming loop manoeuvres at Dawlish Warren. Short term closure due to weather/tide effects would only impact the local service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Here's an alternative alignment for Exeter-Newton Abbot, about 5 miles shorter than the existing route and potentially much faster.

http://www.townend.me/files/southdevon.pdf

Would chudleigh be large enough to warrant a stop? I dont know the area well enough to comment.

I dont think singling the line would really achieve much at all, and would create problems that many lines have today while being singled! Such as York-Harrogate which keeps the line to 1tph under usual cicumstances. I think its best left double. We are trying to enhance not replace and reduce.

 

[Kali]

Well, singling just along the sea wall - which isn't really that long a section, call it Starcross to Teignmouth - would give more space to provide some sort of barrier against the sea. I think it'd be a better idea to move the sea away a little though.

The argument seems to be - the current route will become unviable if left alone, so we need a new route to Plymouth. The flaw with rebuilding the old LSWR route is that as the Dawlish one is going to be unviable you have to build another new southerly route anyway - in which case why bother with the Okehampton route? Okehampton itself isn't generating enough traffic to even run a basic service.

The flaw in the original argument is that the seaside section needs fixing up if services to Dawlish are going to stay - so really the whole "new route because of the sea" issue is a red herring, it's "we want a faster route". I agree totally, it's just not really anything to do with weather-related issues...

 

[The Ham]

Well, singling just along the sea wall - which isn't really that long a section, call it Starcross to Teignmouth - would give more space to provide some sort of barrier against the sea. I think it'd be a better idea to move the sea away a little though.

The argument seems to be - the current route will become unviable if left alone, so we need a new route to Plymouth. The flaw with rebuilding the old LSWR route is that as the Dawlish one is going to be unviable you have to build another new southerly route anyway - in which case why bother with the Okehampton route? Okehampton itself isn't generating enough traffic to even run a basic service.

The flaw in the original argument is that the seaside section needs fixing up if services to Dawlish are going to stay - so really the whole "new route because of the sea" issue is a red herring, it's "we want a faster route". I agree totally, it's just not really anything to do with weather-related issues...

If the cost of providing the LSWR route was the same as a new route, then I would agree that it would be worth just building the new route.

However, the LSWR route is likely to be cheaper to build and is likely to attract more new passengers to rail than the new route, also the new route would almost only be benefitial to reduce the number of times that the line is closed other than a few minutes of time saving.

As such it is likely that it would be better to reopen the LSWR as a diversion route and then when it comes to electrify to Plymouth then rebuild the line and increase the line speed to as high as possible. In doing so, there will be more time to build up the passenger numbers so that it further improved the cost benefit of the new route.

 

[charlee]

If the cost of providing the LSWR route was the same as a new route, then I would agree that it would be worth just building the new route.

However, the LSWR route is likely to be cheaper to build and is likely to attract more new passengers to rail than the new route, also the new route would almost only be benefitial to reduce the number of times that the line is closed other than a few minutes of time saving.

As such it is likely that it would be better to reopen the LSWR as a diversion route and then when it comes to electrify to Plymouth then rebuild the line and increase the line speed to as high as possible. In doing so, there will be more time to build up the passenger numbers so that it further improved the cost benefit of the new route.

Yeah it's ridiculous that the journey from plymouth to Exeter is sometimes in excess of an hour. Where by road it's 45mjn tops.

 

[Tiny Tim]

Okehampton itself isn't generating enough traffic to even run a basic service.

It seems unlikely that Okehampton will attract many passengers whilst it remains disconnected from Plymouth.

I think it's time to play the blame game. Why are we stuck with a railway built unsustainably close to the sea? Step forward Mr I.K. Brunel. He didn't get everything right. This section from Exeter to Newton Abbot was originally built to run on the atmospheric system, another technical disaster.

 

[MarkyT]

Would chudleigh be large enough to warrant a stop? I dont know the area well enough to comment.

Looks a good parkway site next to the A38 junction. A wide motorised catchment including Chudleigh, Bovey, Kingsteignton, even as far as Ashburton, but only about 5 miles out of Newton Abbot so difficult to justify stopping expresses at both.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Well, singling just along the sea wall - which isn't really that long a section, call it Starcross to Teignmouth - would give more space to provide some sort of barrier against the sea. I think it'd be a better idea to move the sea away a little though.

The argument seems to be - the current route will become unviable if left alone, so we need a new route to Plymouth. The flaw with rebuilding the old LSWR route is that as the Dawlish one is going to be unviable you have to build another new southerly route anyway - in which case why bother with the Okehampton route? Okehampton itself isn't generating enough traffic to even run a basic service.

The flaw in the original argument is that the seaside section needs fixing up if services to Dawlish are going to stay - so really the whole "new route because of the sea" issue is a red herring, it's "we want a faster route". I agree totally, it's just not really anything to do with weather-related issues...

The up line through Dawlish has bi directional signals.
The Dawlish diversion will benefit Plymouth & Cornwall immensely, cutting over 10 minutes off journey times. 125 between Newton Abbot and Exeter!
'Petit Cash' compared to HS2, Crossrail etc!!
A new Dawlish parkway could be built on the route.

 

[DavidBrown]

I don't see what would be so wrong, or difficult, about building the Newton Abbot-Exeter inland route for non-stop services (and as such there would be no stations - you only have to look at how few people use Ivybridge to realise that there is a lack of demand for a Parkway type station - either for Dawlish or Chudleigh). This would allow the local service from Paignton to be enhanced massively, and make new stations at Exminster and Marsh Barton much, much more feesable.

Re-opening Bere Alston-Okehampton is something I support on a local level, but there's no way on earth you could justify giving Okehampton and Tavistock an Intercity service whilst taking it away from Torbay, Newton Abbot and Totnes.

 

[HSTEd]

It may be "petit cash" compared to HS2.... but it would only support a single HST and a single Voyager per hour compared to 18 400m formations for HS2....

The okehampton route is almost worthless, it is too slow to be much use and bypasses the major population centres on the route.

If we are going to have a new route between Exeter and Plymouth we should do it properly, lay out for 320kph running and fit with ETCS from day one for 125mph/140mph as required using IEP train-sets.

In the short term the only other reasonable option is to build a breakwater along the vulnerable section of the line to prevent the worst of storm waves getting anywhere near the formation, and probably fit slab track to prevent ballast damage during flooding.

 

[MrC]

The okehampton route is almost worthless, it is too slow to be much use and bypasses the major population centres on the route.

Agreed wholeheartedly. There's also the fact that the line was fairly badly affected during winter by snow (it does run around the back of Dartmoor). The line would probably be affected more by adverse weather than the existing line.

 

[charlee]

Agreed wholeheartedly. There's also the fact that the line was fairly badly affected during winter by snow (it does run around the back of Dartmoor). The line would probably be affected more by adverse weather than the existing line.

Agree too. I think maybe its best left to have two branch lines to tavistock and okehampton.

In a perfect world, we would have

• Branches to Tavistock and Okehampton
• A Plymouth to Exeter via dawlish line ( used as a local line/ local stopping service)
• A new main line that would see a journey from Exeter st David's to plymouth at 30 mins

 

[SJDCornwall]

Many valid points of view here reference the old Southern Railway route to Plymouth however some points to be considered. Trains on the coastal route are becoming overloaded for London, it is not everybody who wishes to travel to London. A reopened LSWR route would not only help the local economies of places like Tavistock and Oakhampton but could also be used to remove pasengers intending to travel along the South Coast to places like Hampshire nd Sussex and therefore reduce overcrowding on the Paddington route. Multiple unit stock would be ideal as it could be split at Salisbury and Exeter as required accordinging to pasenger loadings and therefore offer betterconectivity along the South Coast instead of people trying to get onto crowded trains at Westbury. Also another point trains from Cardiff to Portsmouth are becoming heavily loaded and people changing at Westbury can end up standing for ages, Cardiff is a major university city, Bristol is a major city and likewise Bath. Warminster is a reasonable size army garrison town then you hve many aramy camps around Salisbury plus the fact that Salisbury is a major raiilway crossroads. Romsey supplies a useful local commute and Southampton again is a major player with two universities plus the cruise liner port and freight terminal. Fareham is again another useful commute with its own connections to London and at the end of the line is Portsmouth with a large population. This means the first Great Western trains are already very busy by the time they reach Westbury. A new Plymouth to Waterloo and the South coast via a reopened line via Tavistock and Oakhampton could help to alleviate this problem and also offer new employment opportunities for people, Tavistock and Oakhampton have very little employment to offer, most people have to travel into Plymouth or Exeter for their employment. High petrol prices plus agressive parking policies against the motorist are likely to stay now, and both getting into Plymouth or Exeter nowadays can be quite bad by road. Many young people are not taking up driving As insurance etc has become very expensive and are threrefore stumped for getting decent employment and training if they live out in the rural towns. The take up of the young persons railcard in recent years has been considerable therefore reopening this route would be a win win for many. In the longer term a new route inland from Dawlish could be then built to alleviate the coastal issues and downgrade the Dawlish line to serve local trains by the proposeded Devon metro service. This would at least get rid of the appalling present situation of having to put up with a tedious long winded bus journey between Newton Abbot and Exeter St Davids .

 

[tbtc]

Trains on the coastal route are becoming overloaded for London, it is not everybody who wishes to travel to London.

There's only a couple of trains some hours on that stretch of line though - suggesting plenty of scope for extra (local) services without the need for any expensive inland route to be reopened (which would presumably be just as prone to weather related problems, albeit slightly different ones).

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Re Dawlish - The old LSWR route imo would only serve as useful emergency route for freight & passengers.
It should be reopened as a through route.
Okehampton should become a bus/ train hub. Bude - Holsworthy - Okehampton, Also Tintagel - Camelford - Launceston - Okehampton
and conecting to rail - Tavistock, Plymouth & Exeter etc.
edit - It should be a fast service running at speeds over 70mph.
Dawlish diversion is essential for a modern day railway, as identified in the 1930's!

 

[John S2]

without the need for any expensive inland route to be reopened (which would presumably be just as prone to weather related problems, albeit slightly different ones).

The inland route will become essential not optional. There is no comparison between any infrequent and temporary problems an inland electrified route might have with wind and snow when compared with flooding of the coastal route - which will only get worse [see my previous post].

 

[The Ham]

Looking at the train times it takes an hour to get between Plymouth & Exeter, it also takes 40 minutes to get from Okehampton to Exeter, so it is likely that it would take 90 minutes via the LSWR.

That would mean that it would be quicker for most locations along either current branch line to get to Exeter or Plymouth along the LSWR than it is at present to go via the other (i.e. to get to Plymouth from Okehampton via Exeter).

That then means there is the possibility of a lot more traffic than just Plymouth to Okehampton (as suggested by others).

 

[HSTEd]

The inland route will become essential not optional. There is no comparison between any infrequent and temporary problems an inland electrified route might have with wind and snow when compared with flooding of the coastal route - which will only get worse [see my previous post].

If we must have a new route it must be one that is fit for purpose, not a route reopened for the purpose of returning to some golden age of rail travel.

The SR route is worthless as a modern main line.

Two reversals is not going to help journey times......
And you would have to reinstate lots of track to avoid the Plymouth reversal and the Exeter one looks impossible to eliminate.

 

[charlee]

Plymouth MP vows to keep up pressure over rail links
Monday, January 21, 2013
By GRAEME DEMIANYK and LISA BOYLE

A PLYMOUTH MP has vowed to keep pressure on the Government to improve rail services to the city.

Alison Seabeck made the stand after Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin admitted it is "unacceptable" the city was cut off during the December floods.

​
Plymouth MP vows to keep up pressure over rail links

The minister has asked Network Rail to brief MPs and meetings are expected early next month.

Ms Seabeck said: "He hasn't actually said what he's going to do"

"This is a good start but we'll be keeping the pressure on.

"I believe the Environment Agency are also weighing in on this because they've got some work to do.

"I'm looking forward to this meeting. There are lots of rumours flying around, but it's important they become fact."

Heavy rain battered the region last year, with the London-to-Penzance main line at Cowley Bridge, near Exeter, failing three times – leaving the region marooned by rail.

The resilience of the rail network is now seen as even more important following the loss of Plymouth's air link, and the region having just one fully dualled road into the far South West despite long-standing calls for improvements.

During Transport Questions in the House of Commons, the minister was pressed by Ben Bradshaw, Labour MP for Exeter, over Devon and Cornwall effectively being cut off cut off from the rest of the country by rail for periods lasting more than a week.

"That is not acceptable for rail travellers or our economy," the former Cabinet Secretary said.

In response, Mr McLoughlin said: "The situation that people in the South West faced over that period was unacceptable.

"It was the result of weather that we do not see often.

"I have asked Network Rail to give a briefing to members from those areas."

The meetings are expected to take place in February.

He was also questioned by Adrian Sanders, Liberal Democrat MP for Torbay.

"There are two other important areas within the South West that raise potential problems for the resilience of rail services," Mr Sanders said.

"One is the rail line between Exeter and Honiton, which also floods, but most crucially there is the coastal route between Exeter and Newton Abbot, which for decades has required a great deal of maintenance."

Mr McLoughlin said ministers are "aware of the problems", adding he hoped the meetings would help "come to some solutions".

Network Rail's 2014 to 2019 plan for the Western Route – a vast swathe of the country covering London to Oxford and Worcester and down to Bristol, Exeter and Penzance – offered little hope of immediate improvements to vulnerable stretches of line.

But since the repeated flooding it has been ordered to review 40 vulnerable sites on the route.

David Cameron last week pledged the Government will do "everything we can" to safeguard the Westcountry's vital rail link.

It comes after Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg admitted the coalition could "do more" to prevent a repeat of the region being cut off.

Comment – Page 11

Source

I bolded the bit that interested me, what rumours are flying around regarding the route?

 

[Goatboy]

The Dawlish diversion will benefit Plymouth & Cornwall immensely, cutting over 10 minutes off journey times. 125 between Newton Abbot and Exeter!

As a regular user of this stretch of line I cannot really see how cutting a whole 10 minutes off the journey time will benefit Plymouth 'immensely'.

It's 10 minutes. It's not a big deal.

 

[Zoe]

It's 10 minutes. It's not a big deal.

Indeed and I don't find the current Exeter to Newton Abbot journey time of 18 minutes to be that bad at all.