Calls for new Dawlish avoiding line

[charlee]

There has been calls down here to build a new line avoiding the sea wall at dawlish, the floods seem to have reopened this particular issue. It's a good read, explains how the per war government was going to divert the line and what plans it made.

If the line was seen as " not fit for purpose" in 1937, that says it all really. Doubt anything will come of it. There is a comment below the article by hstmu4000 which seems to sum it up nicely regarding Exeter and its status qou.

The call comes from a Mr MItchell, a rail expert.

http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/bui...e-away-coast/story-17476633-detail/story.html

Call to build new Plymouth to London train line away from the coast

A TRANSPORT expert is calling for work to start on Westcountry rail links that were scuppered by Hitler 73 years ago.

After train services to London were twice cut in the past week, Neill Mitchell is urging the Government to look again at plans for a new railway line avoiding Dawlish, which were drawn up before the Second World War.

"It is simply not acceptable for the 21st century business, freight, tourism and leisure rail service in the peninsula to remain dependent on a solitary 'fair weather railway'," he said.

The rail line between Exeter and Newton Abbot was shut this week after a major landslip at Teignmouth followed by 14 smaller landslips on the route.

But the route's weakest point, and the cause of regular disruption, is the stretch along the sea wall at Dawlish.

Mr Mitchell said the problem was made more pressing now that Plymouth and its hinterland, with a combined population of about 400,000, had lost its direct air link to the capital.

He is calling for the Government to start by "drawing a line on the map" for a line which avoids the sea wall at Dawlish.

Plans for a "Dawlish Avoiding Line" were put forward by the Great Western Railway (GWR) in 1935 at a time when another Conservative-dominated coalition National Government was wrestling with the impact of global economic recession.

Mr Mitchell said GWR had planned a new line from Dawlish Warren to Newton Abbot "in minute detail, down to the level of drainage culverts and pedestrian accesses".

(read more)

 

[plymothian]

Never going to happen. There's no way to use the old line via Chudleigh as the track bed is now the A38, anything else would cost too much in tunnelling. The only more viable option is via Tavistock, yet that what is mainly single line and not without it's own problems of development on the former track bed.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

For a modern railway, the proposed diversion Dawlish - Bishopsteignton planned in the 1930's would be the best option, and speed up the service.
In the meantime the Okehampton LSWR route should be reopened asap.
Link to a previous topic (Bottom of page DavidBrown posts a link to an image of the plans)
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=60989&highlight=1937&page=3

 

[richw]

The major problems this week wouldnt have been solved by a diversionary route anyway, The line was closed between Exeter and Tiverton.
The tavistock diversionary route would have been useless as that route diverges at Cowley junction where it was flooded closing the existing main line.

 

[Kali]

Even pre-Beeching there'd be a bit of a torturous path for services to/from the north/Taunton with that level of flooding. I guess you could have sent them all through Chard, can't imagine the delays that would cause.

The LSWR route was originall double track, but there's a bit of an issue in Tavistock & Meldon to solve there. Rebuilding all of that to main line standards might cost rather more than a Dawlish bypass...

 

[The Ham]

The LSWR route was originall double track, but there's a bit of an issue in Tavistock & Meldon to solve there. Rebuilding all of that to main line standards might cost rather more than a Dawlish bypass...

However if it did go via Tavistock there is likely to be more passenger demand along the route than along a Dawlish bypass. It all very much depends on if you get rid of the Dawlish line all together or just run services away from it if there are problems/likely to be problems.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

The major problems this week wouldnt have been solved by a diversionary route anyway, The line was closed between Exeter and Tiverton.
The tavistock diversionary route would have been useless as that route diverges at Cowley junction where it was flooded closing the existing main line.

Cowley junction - the track needs raising slightly and culverts installing etc?

Even pre-Beeching there'd be a bit of a torturous path for services to/from the north/Taunton with that level of flooding. I guess you could have sent them all through Chard, can't imagine the delays that would cause.

The LSWR route was originall double track, but there's a bit of an issue in Tavistock & Meldon to solve there. Rebuilding all of that to main line standards might cost rather more than a Dawlish bypass...

Tavistock - the route just needs a little bulldozing, compensation won't be cheap!

Meldon Viaducts - I am sure that the North Viaduct could be reused. New timber decking and replacing wasted wrought iron around this woodwork. Probably around £5m?? Any advance?
Anyone know of any serious defects?

Dawlish Diverion.
Build a new Dawlish Station / parkway etc on this new route.
The old route could be left open for local services, but the reduced spending / more erosion could leave a break in the track around the sea walls, and eventually part become a scenic branch line to Exeter.

 

[Goatboy]

The major problems this week wouldnt have been solved by a diversionary route anyway, The line was closed between Exeter and Tiverton.

No it wasn't - this opened at the beginning of the week, the rest of the disruption was caused by a landslide at Dawlish.

 

[richw]

No it wasn't - this opened at the beginning of the week, the rest of the disruption was caused by a landslide at Dawlish.

Exeter to Tiverton reopened on Tuesday, and is limited to 2 trains per hour each way still. This disruption is still ongoing since the Dawlish part has reopened

Owing to flooding earlier between Tiverton Parkway and Exeter St Davids fewer trains are able to run on all lines.
Impact:
Train services running through these stations may be cancelled or delayed by up to 25 mins at short notice. Disruption is expected until 03:45 03/12.
Customer Advice:
The railway line has now reopened between Tiverton and Exeter St Davids following the earlier flooding. However, owing to the reduced level of infrastructure available, as a result of water damage to the signalling equipment, fewer train services may be accommodated over that section of line and journey times will be extended by up to 25 minutes

 

[SJDCornwall]

When is the Government going to listen to us down here West of Exeter?

I should have been on a trip to London today to see old friends, instead I have had to cancel this.

We need the old Southern line from Bere Alston to Okehampton restored and used as a diversionary route to avoid the coastal route.

I am fed up of the stupidity of where we West of Exeter are fobbed off with limited road replacement transport which leads much to be desired. The closure of this line back in the May of 1968 was an act of spite against the Southern and certainly lacked intelligence. Maybe there is someone out there on this forum who will read this article and has influence and power and lives West of Exeter who could take up the cudgel on behalf of many people?

The present situation is diabolical and is ridiculous for the 21st Century.

Reopening this line is not difficult; Meldon Viaduct may be an issue but it is an engineering issue and not impossible to sort out. We do not need a cycle trail, we need a reopened railway.

 

[charlee]

The local MPs have been to government and argued the case with ministers.........

And today the line is flooded once again ha.

From Plymouth Herald

Plymouth is behind the rest of the UK in transport investment

PLYMOUTH is lagging behind most of England when it comes to government spending on transport, say city MPs.

The Government spent an average of £315 a head on transport across the UK in 2011/2012.

​
Plymouth railway station

But in the South West spending was a paltry £184 a person.

Spending on rail transport was equally uneven, with the average in the South West at just £40, substantially lower than the national average of £119.

"We are the poor relation," Oliver Colvile, the MP for Sutton and Devonport, said yesterday after meeting the Transport Secretary in London.

Mr Colvile led a city delegation to see Patrick McLoughlin, the Secretary of State.

Alison Seabeck, the MP for Plymouth Moor View, went armed with statistics on government spending which showed the disparity between the South West and the rest of the country.

"You can't have the 15th largest city in the country having the lowest investment in transport," she said. Rail infrastructure had to be made "more resilient" in the wake of this month's floods.

Ms Seabeck said figures provided by the Department for Transport showed that average spending on transport in the North West was £279 a head – £95 more than in the South West.

Mr Colvile said the delegation pressed the case for improved rail services to Plymouth and the rest of the peninsula.

In particular, he said there was an urgent need to have more three-hour trains between London and Plymouth, and trains arriving earlier in the morning. He said the Secretary of State had promised to visit Plymouth next year.

"We are the poor relation. What has happened is that over the years money has not been spent in the South West.

"For 13 years we had a Labour government and although I am sure our MPs worked hard to get investment, it did not happen.

"There has to be pressure on civil servants. I suspect there has not been enough pressure on ministers to deliver improvements to our transport infrastructure.

"We need to have more money spent on improving the A38, dualling the A303 and improving the railways. If we are going to play our part in the Government's growth agenda this is an important issue."

He said Plymouth's prosperity helped the whole of the far South West. Mr Colvile has asked for a parliamentary debate on transport infrastructure.

"The recent bad weather has highlighted how vulnerable we are. I am keen that we should rebalance our economy. Part of that is making sure we have decent transport links so that people can come and invest in the global leader in marine science research."

Ms Seabeck said: "We find it more than a little distressing that ministers of all three main parties have not understood how significant Plymouth is in terms of size and ability to generate money for the economy.

"I find it alarming that Plymouth has been compared to Hastings [the East Sussex resort town of 87,000 people].

"It is little wonder that in severe weather conditions our rail lines are regularly under water and lack resistance, leading to the far South West effectively being cut off from the rest of the region."

Cllr Mark Coker, the city's Cabinet member for transport, was part of the delegation.

He said: "Plymouth has been neglected. When the Secretary of State was shown the figures he said he was very aware of this.

"I really hope this continued pressure means they will actually take notice because it's vitally important.

"The latest government spending has been focused on the North East and the North West and we have missed out yet again."

The Secretary of State is expected to make a statement after the Brown review into the flawed West Coast rail franchise.

The Great Western franchise process has been put on hold because of mistakes made by Department of Transport officials, leaving the city and the region in transport limbo.

 

[Johnuk123]

Totally agree but unfortunately it is very unlikely it will happen.

 

[NSEFAN]

Does anyone have any statistics on how often the line via Dawlish is closed because of the weather?

 

[sonic2009]

Does anyone have any statistics on how often the line via Dawlish is closed because of the weather?

It's been closed twice in a month since the floods last month.

 

[starrymarkb]

Maybe there is someone out there on this forum who will read this article and has influence and power and lives West of Exeter who could take up the cudgel on behalf of many people?

You'd have to raise it with your MP. This is predominately an enthusiast forum so while we can discuss and debate we have no influence over the powers that be...

 

[charlee]

I am fed up of the stupidity of where we West of Exeter are fobbed off with limited road replacement transport which leads much to be desired. The closure of this line back in the May of 1968 was an act of spite against the Southern and certainly lacked intelligence. Maybe there is someone out there on this forum who will read this article and has influence and power and lives West of Exeter who could take up the cudgel on behalf of many

Well plymouth leaders are taking it to government! The local MPs have been to government and argued the case with ministers albeit for Plymouth ........

From Plymouth Herald

Plymouth is behind the rest of the UK in transport investment

PLYMOUTH is lagging behind most of England when it comes to government spending on transport, say city MPs.

The Government spent an average of £315 a head on transport across the UK in 2011/2012.

​
Plymouth railway station

But in the South West spending was a paltry £184 a person.

Spending on rail transport was equally uneven, with the average in the South West at just £40, substantially lower than the national average of £119.

"We are the poor relation," Oliver Colvile, the MP for Sutton and Devonport, said yesterday after meeting the Transport Secretary in London.

Mr Colvile led a city delegation to see Patrick McLoughlin, the Secretary of State.

Alison Seabeck, the MP for Plymouth Moor View, went armed with statistics on government spending which showed the disparity between the South West and the rest of the country.

"You can't have the 15th largest city in the country having the lowest investment in transport," she said. Rail infrastructure had to be made "more resilient" in the wake of this month's floods.

Ms Seabeck said figures provided by the Department for Transport showed that average spending on transport in the North West was £279 a head – £95 more than in the South West.

Mr Colvile said the delegation pressed the case for improved rail services to Plymouth and the rest of the peninsula.

In particular, he said there was an urgent need to have more three-hour trains between London and Plymouth, and trains arriving earlier in the morning. He said the Secretary of State had promised to visit Plymouth next year.

"We are the poor relation. What has happened is that over the years money has not been spent in the South West.

"For 13 years we had a Labour government and although I am sure our MPs worked hard to get investment, it did not happen.

"There has to be pressure on civil servants. I suspect there has not been enough pressure on ministers to deliver improvements to our transport infrastructure.

"We need to have more money spent on improving the A38, dualling the A303 and improving the railways. If we are going to play our part in the Government's growth agenda this is an important issue."

He said Plymouth's prosperity helped the whole of the far South West. Mr Colvile has asked for a parliamentary debate on transport infrastructure.

"The recent bad weather has highlighted how vulnerable we are. I am keen that we should rebalance our economy. Part of that is making sure we have decent transport links so that people can come and invest in the global leader in marine science research."

Ms Seabeck said: "We find it more than a little distressing that ministers of all three main parties have not understood how significant Plymouth is in terms of size and ability to generate money for the economy.

"I find it alarming that Plymouth has been compared to Hastings [the East Sussex resort town of 87,000 people].

"It is little wonder that in severe weather conditions our rail lines are regularly under water and lack resistance, leading to the far South West effectively being cut off from the rest of the region."

Cllr Mark Coker, the city's Cabinet member for transport, was part of the delegation.

He said: "Plymouth has been neglected. When the Secretary of State was shown the figures he said he was very aware of this.

"I really hope this continued pressure means they will actually take notice because it's vitally important.

"The latest government spending has been focused on the North East and the North West and we have missed out yet again."

The Secretary of State is expected to make a statement after the Brown review into the flawed West Coast rail franchise.

The Great Western franchise process has been put on hold because of mistakes made by Department of Transport officials, leaving the city and the region in transport limbo.

 

[DarloRich]

When is the Government going to listen to us down here West of Exeter?

I should have been on a trip to London today to see old friends, instead I have had to cancel this.

We need the old Southern line from Bere Alston to Okehampton restored and used as a diversionary route to avoid the coastal route.

I am fed up of the stupidity of where we West of Exeter are fobbed off with limited road replacement transport which leads much to be desired. The closure of this line back in the May of 1968 was an act of spite against the Southern and certainly lacked intelligence. Maybe there is someone out there on this forum who will read this article and has influence and power and lives West of Exeter who could take up the cudgel on behalf of many people?

The present situation is diabolical and is ridiculous for the 21st Century.

Reopening this line is not difficult; Meldon Viaduct may be an issue but it is an engineering issue and not impossible to sort out. We do not need a cycle trail, we need a reopened railway.

OK no problem - Please send the cheque to:

Department for Transport
Great Minster House
33 Horseferry Road
London
SW1P 4DR

Make it out for about 3/4's of a billion quid. I assume you are paying for it because no one else has any spare cash.

 

[Buttsy]

OK no problem - Please send the cheque to:

Department for Transport
Great Minster House
33 Horseferry Road
London
SW1P 4DR

Make it out for about 3/4's of a billion quid. I assume you are paying for it because no one else has any spare cash.

Not a good idea to send it to them, they'll only fritter it away on other schemes & compensation payments to failed franchise bidders, you're better off sending it to Network Rail or employing your own Network Rail compliant contractors after you've bought all the land.

 

[jopsuk]

Make it out for about 3/4's of a billion quid.

That'll cover the design work. Maybe.

 

[dstrat]

If thats the case, then planning costs are absurd. Surely theres not a great deal to plan if you are building over an old alignment; land which possibly is owned by the BRB / local council for fairly easy repossession?

 

[kylemore]

OK no problem - Please send the cheque to:

Department for Transport
Great Minster House
33 Horseferry Road
London
SW1P 4DR

Make it out for about 3/4's of a billion quid. I assume you are paying for it because no one else has any spare cash.

Yeh if they can spend £30billion on HS2 and Umpty £billion on Crossrail and Thameslink and Electrifcation galore then they can find whatever this would cost!

 

[Buttsy]

There seem to be 2 threads about this at the moment.

 

[Ironside]

While acknowledging that there isn't the money, would it not be better to build a new fast, resiliant,and direct line between Plymouth and Exeter.

 

[starrymarkb]

If thats the case, then planning costs are absurd. Surely theres not a great deal to plan if you are building over an old alignment; land which possibly is owned by the BRB / local council for fairly easy repossession?

Meldon Viaduct would be a big issue. It was found to be weak and the track was lifted in 1990 as there were concerns about the structure being able to take the weight of a train without further strengthening

 

[jopsuk]

You'd certainly want a new alignment in places- notably at either end, where the old aligment would mean Paddington-Penzance trains reversing at Exeter AND Plymouth wouldn't it? Ideally also you'd be looking at maximising line speeds- no point spending money on a trundle. Clearing everything for electrification (in fact, by the time it would happen, electrifying from the start) would be a given.

 

[yorksrob]

When is the Government going to listen to us down here West of Exeter?

I should have been on a trip to London today to see old friends, instead I have had to cancel this.

We need the old Southern line from Bere Alston to Okehampton restored and used as a diversionary route to avoid the coastal route.

I am fed up of the stupidity of where we West of Exeter are fobbed off with limited road replacement transport which leads much to be desired. The closure of this line back in the May of 1968 was an act of spite against the Southern and certainly lacked intelligence. Maybe there is someone out there on this forum who will read this article and has influence and power and lives West of Exeter who could take up the cudgel on behalf of many people?

The present situation is diabolical and is ridiculous for the 21st Century.

Reopening this line is not difficult; Meldon Viaduct may be an issue but it is an engineering issue and not impossible to sort out. We do not need a cycle trail, we need a reopened railway.

Very good first post. Agree totally.

I would rather spend money on this than simply re-aligning the Dawlish route because you would gain better connectivity for Tavistock and Okehampton (and their hinterland areas) as well as the diversionary route.

Scotland has managed a number of re-openings in recent years. This is one we should consider.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yeh if they can spend £30billion on HS2 and Umpty £billion on Crossrail and Thameslink and Electrifcation galore then they can find whatever this would cost!

Quite !

 

[DarloRich]

That'll cover the design work. Maybe.

well you need to make sure it is feasible before you send the proper money

 

[tbtc]

Yeh if they can spend £30billion on HS2 and Umpty £billion on Crossrail and Thameslink and Electrifcation galore then they can find whatever this would cost!

Presumably these schemes have more passengers per hour than the line through Dawlish does.

Whilst the large amount of infrastructure spending taking place this decade is great, there's a danger of it annoying those in "untouched" areas even more - they now feel even more hard done by (though I'm sure I read on here recently that the North East of England had the lowest spend "per head", rather than the South West?).

Everyone feels like their local area is hard done by, of course.

 

[The Ham]

You'd certainly want a new alignment in places- notably at either end, where the old aligment would mean Paddington-Penzance trains reversing at Exeter AND Plymouth wouldn't it? Ideally also you'd be looking at maximising line speeds- no point spending money on a trundle. Clearing everything for electrification (in fact, by the time it would happen, electrifying from the start) would be a given.

If it was a diversion route extend the Exeter/Waterloo services for normal services (no reversing required). That service would then be replaced by the long distance services when there was a problem.

Ideally do a driver change at both Exeter and Plymouth which would reduce the increase in journey times and although this would be costly, it would only be when there were problems.

If there was the possibility of some line speed improvements on the Exeter/Waterloo line at the same time there could be two services between London & Plymouth with one that took maybe an hour longer than the other, but depending on fares that could still attract passengers.

 

[YorkshireBear]

When is the Government going to listen to us down here West of Exeter?

I should have been on a trip to London today to see old friends, instead I have had to cancel this.

We need the old Southern line from Bere Alston to Okehampton restored and used as a diversionary route to avoid the coastal route.

I am fed up of the stupidity of where we West of Exeter are fobbed off with limited road replacement transport which leads much to be desired. The closure of this line back in the May of 1968 was an act of spite against the Southern and certainly lacked intelligence. Maybe there is someone out there on this forum who will read this article and has influence and power and lives West of Exeter who could take up the cudgel on behalf of many people?

The present situation is diabolical and is ridiculous for the 21st Century.

Reopening this line is not difficult; Meldon Viaduct may be an issue but it is an engineering issue and not impossible to sort out. We do not need a cycle trail, we need a reopened railway.

I believe the line was closed due to rain flooding. With all due respect this could equally happen on any new line as they are going through the same area! The recent poor weather could have rendered both lines blocked and then how annoyed would you have been then?
So should we build a replacement WCML and ECML because the northern sections have been both taken out recently? (note HS2 does not cover the sections that regularly fall due to the weather.)
The dawlish sectionn is rarely closed compared to some lines as signalling problems and cable thefts are fewer down there generally. So it all evens out that generally it is blocked just as often.
I see no reason why huge expense should be down just because of the recent flooding, whos to say it wont flood for 12 months now?