London Overground completes the orbital

[SF-02]

Buses in Denmark Hill? Hopeless. Not an option at peak time, and barely one at off peak. I don't understand why the southeastern Dartford to Vic trains via Denmark Hill can't run later than 7pm, or on a Sunday. It'd only need a 4 coach train and the frequency is only every 30 mins daytimes.

 

[GodAtum]

Whats going to happen with the lines from Wandsworth Road to Victoria, are they now disused?

 

[jopsuk]

as far as I'm aware, maintained with a ECS service for route knowledge by Southern- and a single LO service to Battersea Park at 2257.

 

[pendolino]

Whats going to happen with the lines from Wandsworth Road to Victoria, are they now disused?

My understanding (which may well be wrong) is that the junction London end of Battersea Park will be removed and the lines truncated to allow platform lengthening for 10 cars. So Battersea Park will become a terminus from the Wandsworth Rd direction. I think the idea is that it will be used as a turnback in times of disruption which is why the one train a day terminates there, to keep driver route knowledge current.

 

[hwl]

My understanding (which may well be wrong) is that the junction London end of Battersea Park will be removed and the lines truncated to allow platform lengthening for 10 cars. So Battersea Park will become a terminus from the Wandsworth Rd direction. I think the idea is that it will be used as a turnback in times of disruption which is why the one train a day terminates there, to keep driver route knowledge current.

That is my understanding too, based on what was originally said when the transfer to LO was announced. However that was while ago and things may have changed since then.
P3 at Battersea Park (Down Slow to Clapham) is the only one being extended to 10 car according to the latest NR CP4 progress update I have seen.

 

[RJ]

Maybe you know more about bus timings than the TfL website (?), but I'd still take it as a fair benchmark for public transport information...

In this specific case, 24 minutes is not a realistic approximation of the journey time between Denmark Hill and Victoria in the morning peak. I might be missing something so can I ask GodAtum, how did you arrive at the conclusion of 24 minutes travel time for the journey in the morning peak?

I've just had a look at the TfL website inputting 08:00 tomorrow as the time of travel and it states the journey time between Denmark Hill Station and Victoria Station using Route 185 is 42 minutes between 07:31 and 08:50, which is a more realistic estimate.
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if you factor in the other 3 routes which stop outside Denmark Hill station during the morning peak, the 176 and 484 will also be packed, however Route 40 starts from Dulwich Library which would give the most likely opportunity for space on a bus. For those passengers who live close to DH station, Camberwell Green is a short 5-10 minute walk with regular services to Victoria.

Regardless of which mode of transport you use in London, they're always going to be packed. Who hasn't been been able to board the first service on the tube or NR during the morning peak due to delays. The same happens to buses.

During the morning rush hour, the 40s also reach crush loadings by the time they reach East Dulwich station. It's pot luck whether or not you will be able to board a bus when it turns up, even with 4 routes running along that stretch. The Tubes are often packed, but at peak times at least they tend to have a headway of 1-3 minutes over the busiest sections and are efficient people movers. Buses are somewhat less frequent and slower.

The point I'm making is, the 185 can hardly be considered to be a like for like alternative for the loss of a half hourly four carriage train service in the morning peak, when it takes 5 times as long as the train and has capacity problems of its own. Only someone who has no knowledge of the transport issues in the area would suggest that pushing people onto buses on roads that already can't cope with demand is a solution.

 

[Eagle]

Maybe they should show the ELL trains terminating at Canonbury, like they do with the slow Cambridge trains shown as Foxton!

ELL train leaves Clapham Junction at xx.29, arrives Canonbury at xy.13 and Highbury at xy.18.

NLL train leaves Clapham Junction at xx.30, arrives Highbury at xy.16 and Canonbury at xy.19.

But anyway, it doesn't really matter as NLL trains will never have Highbury & Islington as a destination, so the trains will be distinct on the departures board. The problem is at the other end at Canonbury and Highbury, where there will be trains with a destination of Clapham Junction departing in either direction via totally different routes. (Although in this case the trains are spaced far enough apart that they arrive in the same order they departed, so it'd be pointless to give either a fake destination as neither gets overtaken.) I'm guessing screens there just say "Clapham Junction via Willesden Junction" and "Clapham Junction via Surrey Quays" or whichever intermediate points they choose.

 

[bicbasher]

Whats going to happen with the lines from Wandsworth Road to Victoria, are they now disused?

Southeastern are operating two services. One from Victoria at 0530 calling at Wandsworth Road, Clapham High Street, Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye which is fast to Bromley South. The service to Victoria starts from Sevenoaks at 1818 and calls at Denmark Hill, Clapham HS and Wandsworth Road around 1900 Mon-Fri.

Incidentally I was at Canada Water on my evening commute. The 1707 to Clapham Junction had plenty of space and seats (although not as much space as the New Cross service), so is going through it's holiday romance period which seems like a long time ago for us on the other branches! The next train, the 1710 to West Croydon which now starts at Dalston Junction was still busy, but bearable in comparison to last Monday.

The point I'm making is, the 185 can hardly be considered to be a like for like alternative for the loss of a half hourly four carriage train service in the morning peak, when it takes 5 times as long as the train and has capacity problems of its own.

I understand the SLL morning peak services towards the end were made up of 3 car 377s.

 

[PR1Berske]

I'm sure you've all seen Diamond Geezer has 'set' an Overground world record

http://diamondgeezer.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/the-overground-orbit.html

 

[Eagle]

as far as I'm aware, maintained with a ECS service for route knowledge by Southern- and a single LO service to Battersea Park at 2257.

And a return LO service from Battersea Park at 06.18. Also Southeastern will make the 05.30 Victoria to Bromley South and the 18.18 Sevenoaks to Victoria at Wandsworth Road and Clapham High Street.

 

[bicbasher]

ITV's London Tonight news speculated on the transport secretary's apparent nod to TfL as London Overground taking over the Southeastern and Greater Anglia metro services.

http://www.itv.com/news/london/story/2012-12-09/final-london-overground-extension-complete/

 

[GodAtum]

I'm sure you've all seen Diamond Geezer has 'set' an Overground world record

http://diamondgeezer.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/the-overground-orbit.html

He makes an interesting point:

What's particularly pointless about orbiting the Overground is that there's a much quicker way from one side of London to the other. Forget the choice of two Overground trains from Highbury & Islington to Clapham Junction and take the direct route instead. That's the Victoria line from H&I to Victoria or Vauxhall, then a mainline train to Clapham Junction. It's only non-obvious to most people because the latter journey isn't on the tube map. Hide these rail links away and nobody thinks to use them, whereas the appearance of the new Overground route on the tube map is sure to boost passenger numbers.
Highbury & Islington → Canada Water → Clapham Junction 46 minutes
Clapham Junction → Willesden Junction → Highbury & Islington 45 minutes
Highbury & Islington → Vauxhall → Clapham Junction 23 minutes

i wonder how many people will fall for this?

 

[cjohnson]

Only day 3, and the new branch is suspended, oops!

A signalling problem is causing disruption near Surrey Quays.

Because of this, the following changes will apply until further notice:

Trains between Highbury & Islington and Peckham Rye / New Cross Gate may be delayed by up to 20 minutes
There are currently no London Overground services between Surrey Quays and Clapham Junction

Although TfL say it's a signal failure at Peckham Rye...

 

[GodAtum]

A lot of commuters are going to be very angry going home today!

 

[Eagle]

Gospel Oak to Barking isn't too healthy today either.

 

[tripleseis]

Any ideas how long the 185s take during the morning peak? It's quicker to wait 30 minutes for the next train and take that to Victoria!

I take it you don't have much understanding of the local area at all?

I live in Herne Hill so I do know how get around.

Reasonable alternatives include a short bus ride (68 & 468) in the other direction to Herne Hill and grab a train to Victoria from there (a whopping 9 minutes journey!) or use the Victoria trains from Denmark Hill. Or take a train from there to Blackfriars and change to the District/Circle Line. Or take a short bus ride back to North or East Dulwich and grab a direct train to London Bridge. Or take the Overground to Canada Water and change to the Jubilee or to Clapham High Road and grab the Northern Line from Clapham North (not far apart at all). Or take the train one stop to Peckham Rye and change to a London Bridge train there!

Denmark Hill has hardly been cut off.

Sorry I'll keep my mouth shut next time.

 

[bicbasher]

All seems to be back to normal now. Earlier there were delays due to a signal fault at Battersea Park too which didn't help matters on the new SLL.

 

[RJ]

I live in Herne Hill so I do know how get around.

You know enough to suggest that an already packed beyond capacity bus service taking 5 times as long as the train is a perfectly reasonable like for like alternative, just because they serve the same two stations. I'll be sure to consult you for travel advice again!

 

[tripleseis]

You know enough to suggest that an already packed beyond capacity bus service taking 5 times as long as the train is a perfectly reasonable like for like alternative, just because they serve the same two stations. I'll be sure to consult you for travel advice again!

You're welcome!!

I give you lots of other options and you choose to be rude to me. I bet you're a joy to be with.