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Scottish Independence(if it happens)

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Xenophon PCDGS

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What's with the obsession in some quarters for dissolving the entire Union? Also if we're going down that road let me be the first state that the People's Republic of Yorkshire will be declaring it's independence from England!

At my age, I still remember comments in the press about...."The Socialist Republic of South Yorkshire"
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
They used to make Irn Bru in Mansfield, Nottinghamshire. Opposite the college I did a course at :D

Whatever happened to the once-proud advertising boast....Made in Scotland from girders....:D
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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Personally, I think if they get independence then both governments should strike a deal for Scottish bases, I mean we have had bases in foreign countries for years, Germany springs to mind, The USA have bases here. Or I would like to see a deal thrashed out where we take responsibility for the defence up to the point where a Scottish Defence Force has been formed and a deal where we train there forces in exchange for keeping bases going in Scotland,.but should not permanently be part of their defence plans...

While we are discussing the resolution of reversion of past historical matters, should Scotland gain its Independence, will the Kingdom of Norway then make representations to Scotland to regain all territories that were ceded by them to Scotland in early medieval times ?
 

ReverendFozz

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What is the opinion in Scotland regarding Independence, is there any opinion polls to suggest what may happen

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Johnuk123

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michael769

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What is the opinion in Scotland regarding Independence, is there any opinion polls to suggest what may happen

There is little majority support for independence, and it is hard to see how they could ever get a yes vote through unless Westminster does something idiotic to offend the entire nation.

For example there was a slight boost in support when it looked like Westminster might try to derail the vote, which was perceived as London ignoring the wishes of Scottish people, now it is clear that is not the case that extra boost as drifted away.
 

wolfman

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independence will never happen the majority of scots will vote against.the only people in favour are the tartan trannies and certain supporters of a football club that resides at the glitterdome and despises all things british except of course british dole and social security money.
 

HawkeyeTheNoo

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independence will never happen the majority of scots will vote against.the only people in favour are the tartan trannies and certain supporters of a football club that resides at the glitterdome and despises all things british except of course british dole and social security money.

I don't know what team you are referring to as I've never heard of the term glitterdome for any ground but I'm assuming it's the team I support who play in green and white hoops. I can assure you that I and I'm sure most of my fellow supporters do not want independence and are proud of being both Scottish and British. I've even fought for Queen and country and want nothing to do with Chancellor Eck and his cronies. Oh and we all work!
 

MidnightFlyer

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I get the impression from studying politics and on trips around Scotland that the only people who truly want it and truly believe in it are the SNP and a few people here and there, I don't not believe for a second over 50% of those who could vote in a referendum want it. As a staunch Unionist I don't want to see it happen, and I don't know how Scotland would survive; however the political side of me does in a way as it would instigate considerable damage to Labour gaining a majority in a general election.
 

LE Greys

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I get the impression from studying politics and on trips around Scotland that the only people who truly want it and truly believe in it are the SNP and a few people here and there, I don't not believe for a second over 50% of those who could vote in a referendum want it. As a staunch Unionist I don't want to see it happen, and I don't know how Scotland would survive; however the political side of me does in a way as it would instigate considerable damage to Labour gaining a majority in a general election.

Also, once you're outside the Central Belt, there are plenty of people who would rather have independence from Edinburgh than London.
 

kylemore

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The situation is very volatile and my own view is that 30% could turn into 60% overnight.
Theres just a feeling in the air that everythings up in the air, all the true blue and green stuff old hat, pathetic, from the black and white era and fading, this will be a very post-modern separation process..
And that's the key word - PROCESS - Tam Dalyell was right - once this process started it would only go one way, even if the referendum fails thats just a blip, slow or fast, uphill a bit, downhill a bit, theres only one end to this.
The glue of Empire and Industry was finished by the 60s/70s (that's when this process started). The Union is already in the past......
Bye bye :|
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I get the impression from studying politics and on trips around Scotland that the only people who truly want it and truly believe in it are the SNP and a few people here and there, I don't not believe for a second over 50% of those who could vote in a referendum want it. As a staunch Unionist I don't want to see it happen, and I don't know how Scotland would survive; however the political side of me does in a way as it would instigate considerable damage to Labour gaining a majority in a general election.

You have now raised a point that I had not previously considered. If Scotland did (hypothetically) achieve Independence, what would happen to the Unionist section of the British political system ?
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On the other side of the same coin, the matter of the Union did not seem to bother overmuch to Winston Churchill in the early days of the Second World War, when he sent that telegram to de Valera offering the Six Counties to Eire if Eire would renounce its neutrality and fight against Hitler's Nazi regime and the Axis countries. Political and military expediency always seem to give exceptions to the rule.
 
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ReverendFozz

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When it comes to Independence, do other parts of Britain have active Independence movements, would Wales ever fancy going after it, how about Northern Ireland, how about England, would there ever be chance to dissolve the Union all together with Wales and England being independent of the Union
 

Greenback

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When it comes to Independence, do other parts of Britain have active Independence movements, would Wales ever fancy going after it, how about Northern Ireland, how about England, would there ever be chance to dissolve the Union all together with Wales and England being independent of the Union

There are certainly people in Wales who support independence, though their numbers are pretty small according to most commentators.

I have also read quite a few comments, both here and elsewhere, from English people who would be only too happy to be rid of the Celtic nations! :D
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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One point that was strongly made in days of the past by those who espoused Cornish Nationalism is that Cornwall is technically legally a territorial and constitutional Duchy that has the right to veto any Westminster legislation. They also contended that Cornwall has never been formally incorporated into England via an Act of Union.
 

ReverendFozz

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I saw on the news the other day if Scotland gets it's independence, they will have to apply for EU membership, does that mean Scots would lose rights like free movement around the European Union, which I guess the Schengen Agreement is all about, and would that affect the rest of the UK's relations with Scotland e.g if they are not in the EU would we have to close the borders with Scotland.

Also, what if Scotland vote yes would they actually be completely cut off from the EU or would it be possible to rush a resolution through that give them some of afilliate or observer status in the EU...

I am quite confused about how the whole thing is going to work

As for the Union debate, while not having a particular firm opinion on it, I think we should all have a referendum(Wales and N.Ireland included) about dissolving the Union all together and going with an Independent England and Wales, the only difference being would be Northern Ireland asking them whether they want Independence or reunification with the Republic of Ireland, although I guess that idea would be very controversial

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Bill EWS

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There was a discussion by the Scottish Government on these very issues, either earlier today or perhaps yeaterday. If you are seriously interested in learning more about these issues it would be worth your effort to listen to this...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-20709124

I'm afraid there is too much nonsense and dirty politics going on by those against to allow anyone not close enough to the situatiuon to know what is true and what is not. Maybe this will help a bit.
 

transmanche

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I saw on the news the other day if Scotland gets it's independence, they will have to apply for EU membership, does that mean Scots would lose rights like free movement around the European Union, which I guess the Schengen Agreement is all about, and would that affect the rest of the UK's relations with Scotland e.g if they are not in the EU would we have to close the borders with Scotland.
'Free movement' and Schengen are two different things.

'Free movement' refers to the right of an EU citizen to go and work in another EU country. You can up sticks tomorrow and go to work in Germany, Italy, Spain etc and have the same rights (and responsibilities) as a citizen of those countries.

Schengen refers to the policy of removing border controls between those countries that have signed up for it. Not all EU countries are in the Schengen zone (the UK isn't, which is why you have to go through passport control when travelling to/from the 'mainland') and some non-EU countries are in the Schengen zone.

The only situation that would require border controls between England & Scotland would be if one country was in Schengen and one country was not - irrespective of the EU membership status of either.
 

LE Greys

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I saw on the news the other day if Scotland gets it's independence, they will have to apply for EU membership, does that mean Scots would lose rights like free movement around the European Union, which I guess the Schengen Agreement is all about, and would that affect the rest of the UK's relations with Scotland e.g if they are not in the EU would we have to close the borders with Scotland.

Also, what if Scotland vote yes would they actually be completely cut off from the EU or would it be possible to rush a resolution through that give them some of afilliate or observer status in the EU...

Curiously, that would make me more likely to support it. An 'independent' Scotland in the EU would seem a bit pointless. If Scotland has a chance to split off entirely, then negotiate entry and (hopefully) put it to an additional referendum, then they would have achieved a better relationship with the EU than England has. A relationship more like Norway would be even better.

<EDIT> Or maybe not.
 
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transmanche

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A relationship more like Norway would be even better.
Norway, a country which has to pay their share of costs of running the Single Market and has to adopt most EU legislation. But not being an EU member, has no say in how the Single Market is run and no input into the EU legislative process.

Seems like to worst of both worlds to me.
 

Metrailway

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Norway, a country which has to pay their share of costs of running the Single Market and has to adopt most EU legislation. But not being an EU member, has no say in how the Single Market is run and no input into the EU legislative process.

That is incorrect. Norway has input into how the single market is run and exerts its influence when EU legislation affecting EFTA countries in the EEA is proposed.

Norway is also able to veto any EU legislation.

From the Norwegian Ministry of Foreign Affairs:

According to the principle of unanimity applied in the EEA Joint Committee, all the EFTA states must agree in order for new EU legislation to be integrated into the EEA Agreement and for it to apply to cooperation between the EFTA states and the EU. If one EFTA state opposes integration, this also affects the other EFTA states in that the rules will not apply to them either, neither in the individual states nor between the EFTA states themselves nor in their relations with the EU. This possibility that each EFTA state has to object to new rules that lie within the scope of the EEA Agreement becoming applicable to the EFTA pillar is often referred to as these parties’ right of veto.


Previously, Norway did not exercise this right, as the governments of Norway believe Norway would be severely weakened if it did. I guess this is similar to the UK Government's position between 1973 and 2011, when the UK did not veto any EU legislation (it did secure opt outs though) in fear of weakening its standing within the EC/EU. Indeed many in Norway complain that their governments have been too passive when EU legislation has been implemented and a minority even want Norway to exit the EEA.

However, for the first time in the history of the agreement, the Norwegian Storting (Parliament) has voted against implementing postal service reforms in 2011, which amounts to a Norwegian veto of EU single market legislation.

Even before this veto, Norway has managed to assert its sovereignty, by passing legislation which violated a certain EU directive.

Sadly, much of the reporting of Norway's relationship with the EU by the British media is of poor quality, which leads to many in Britain to think that Norway has no say in legislation and no veto.

It is true, however, that the EFTA states in the EEA has lost its influence over the 20 years of the agreement, as it has become smaller. The increasing power of the EU parliament and council at the expense of the EU commission, has also caused the EFTA to lose its influence. I understand Iceland want representation in the EU parliament and EU council but the dominant power in the EFTA, Norway, is not interested.

It is likely if Scotland does leave the EU, it would have the same relationship with the EU as Norway does. If the UK (including Scotland) leaves the EU, it would be interesting to see whether the UK, as a great power, would be able to negotiate a better settlement with the EU.
 

transmanche

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That is incorrect. Norway has input into how the single market is run and exerts its influence when EU legislation affecting EFTA countries in the EEA is proposed.
Influence, maybe. Power, no. They're not represented in the Council of Ministers and they have no members in the European Parliament - the decision making bodies of the EU.

EFTA bulletin 2012 said:
There are examples showing that the trade-off between participation in the EU’s internal market and having only a minor influence in the internal decision-making process of the EU is not always easy for the EEA EFTA Member States to accept.

Norway is also able to veto any EU legislation.
I said Norway "has to adopt most EU legislation", not all legislation.

Between 2009 and 2014, Norway is contributing 95% of the €1bn "EEA and Norway Grants" to poorer EU member states. And that's on top of their contributions to other EU programmes.

Like I said. In simple terms - all of the costs, none of the say.
 

Butts

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Norway is of course an extremely wealthy Nation due to the fact it channelled most of it's "North Sea Oil Revenue" into a Sovereign Fund, unlike the UK which has blown most of it's benefit from Oil over the years.

Taxes in Norway are very high but so is the standard of living.
 

LE Greys

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Norway is of course an extremely wealthy Nation due to the fact it channelled most of it's "North Sea Oil Revenue" into a Sovereign Fund, unlike the UK which has blown most of it's benefit from Oil over the years.

Taxes in Norway are very high but so is the standard of living.

They also managed their fisheries considerably better than we did.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Influence, maybe. Power, no. They're not represented in the Council of Ministers and they have no members in the European Parliament - the decision making bodies of the EU.

I said Norway "has to adopt most EU legislation", not all legislation.

Between 2009 and 2014, Norway is contributing 95% of the €1bn "EEA and Norway Grants" to poorer EU member states. And that's on top of their contributions to other EU programmes.

Like I said. In simple terms - all of the costs, none of the say.

You may be right. I'd be interested to know how they handle ratification of their directives.
 
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