Scottish Independence(if it happens)

[ReverendFozz]

Scottish indepemdence has been on another board regarding railways, I brought the Military issue here to to keep the other thread on topic.

What will happen to the forces, we have Faslane Navy Base for Nuclear Subs, and there has always been opposition to that place, we got RAF bases army barracks up there, would the Scots start raising Armed Services or would they want our Armed Forces as part or their defence.

What would there constitution status be, would they be Republic, or would the queen still be head of state, like canada, oz and nz.

Over to you guys

Sent by Comrade Marxista Fozzski

 

[Eagle]

What would there constitution status be, would they be Republic, or would the queen still be head of state, like canada, oz and nz.

The SNP have stated that an independent Scotland would remain a constitutional monarchy with the Queen as head of state. (Being as she is still the rightful heir to the 300-years-defunct throne of Scotland.)

There are some who would prefer a Scottish republic, but no more than republicanists in the rest of the UK.

 

[wintonian]

Mod Note: This post was originally contained in this thread

So if Scotland obtain Independece and decide to all in with the EU they will end up being forced into Schengen and adopt the Euro...

A bit off topic what would happen with the Military, we got the navy base at Faslane, RAF stations and army barracks in Scotland. Would they need to form there own armed services or would they look our Military as part of there defence, I read somewhere ages ago quite a few people dont like Faslane as it i am sure it is a nuclear submarine base

Sent by Comrade Marxista Fozzski

Apparently us on the British side of the potential boarder are expected to remove and clean up Faslane whilst the Scottish government walk off with a large proportion of British armed forces personnel and hardware.

To quote Mr Salmond:

"Only somebody with the arrogance of a Westminster politician would say to the Scottish people, apparently in all sobriety, that you'd place and station weapons of mass destruction in Scotland over a period of half a century, impose substantial clean-up costs and then try to send Scotland the bill.

"I don't think that's a feasible position."

The SNP's white paper says this:

"We would retain all the military bases in Scotland at the point we become independent. The big difference is that we would not have nuclear weapons, allowing us to divert the money currently spent by the UK, perhaps as much as £250m each year, to other, more useful projects."

A few of the question in this thread are answered here. Quite a bit of the media has thought of and tackled related questions as well.

 

[ReverendFozz]

Is that a similar status to Australia, Canada and New Zealand.

As for the military, would they start there own Armed Forces, or would the present Scottish Batallions be absorbed by Scotland

Sent by Comrade Marxista Fozzski

 

[Eagle]

Is that a similar status to Australia, Canada and New Zealand.

Yes. And Jamaica, Barbados, the Bahamas, Grenada, Papua New Guinea, the Solomon Islands, Tuvalu, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Belize, Antigua and Barbuda, and Saint Kitts and Nevis.

 

[ainsworth74]

Speaking of the military there is a rather interesting blog post by an MOD Civil Servant on the issue which can be found here. His take (and I tend to agree) is that for the time being the SNP talk of defence policy is all bluster and sugar coating (the SDF would not need all the airbases that RAF currently have up there for example) rather than a rational debate of what Scotland actually wants/needs.

 

[ReverendFozz]

That blog is talking about a 19,000 strong Defence Force, could a Force of those numbers be worth it, I'm not so sure.

As for the Navy and Air Force, I couldn't see them being anymore than a coastal defence force and would they need an air force.

Personally, I think if they get independence then both governments should strike a deal for Scottish bases, I mean we have had bases in foreign counries for years, Germany springs to mind, The USA have bases here. Or I would like to see a deal thrashed out where we take responsibility for the defence up to the point where a Scottish Defence Force has been formed and a deal where we train there forces in exchange for keeping bases going in Scotland,.but should not permanantly be part of there defence plans...

 

[transmanche]

That blog is talking about a 19,000 strong Defence Force, could a Force of those numbers be worth it, I'm not so sure.

It's about twice the size of Ireland's Defence Forces, with a similar-sized population.

 

[DarloRich]

It is quite simple. I would cut them loose on the following terms:

1) The newly independent state of North Britain will assume responsibility for 1/4 of the national debt of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland as it stands at the date of North British Independence

2) North Britain will repay all of the money generously given to them by the Parliament of Great Britain & Northern Ireland to support their country over the years. This, it turns out, was a loan and not a gift. Repayment terms to be agreed but interest in the region of 12% per annum ought to do. We will keep the oil as a non refundable deposit.

3) North Britain will hand over to England any such military establishments that the English parliament deems necessary to ensure the safety of England (and our allies) and to ensure the good offices of the North British People. These bases shall include and shall not be limited to Faslane, Rosyth, Leuchers, Lossiemouth and Edinburgh Castle. These facilities will be leased unreservedly to the English crown for a period of 999 years for a peppercorn rent.

4) Any Scottish Battalions will serve in the English army as per the Gurkhas.

5) England shall retain the right to revoke any declaration of Independence at any time that we see without warning or notice.

6) A cross border liaison committee shall be created to discuss matters of Anglo-North British Cooperation. This committee (and any sub committees) shall have wide ranging powers to deal with any matters I see fit. It will be weighted 51%/49% in favour of England. All decisions of this committee shall be binding on all parties.

7) The North British will be required to swear alligence to HM Queen Elizabeth I of Scotland.

8) The secret recipe of Tunnocks caramel wafers will be presented to England as gift

Should you fail to accept or fail to perform any of the obligations under this agreement England reserves the right to repossess North Britain at any time.

A Royal Navy Warship will be moored at Berwick on 5 minute notice to move into North British waters at the first sign of any uppityness or you getting to close to the French. We can and will shell your capital.

We are England. We dont need to bargain with small no mark countries. These are the terms if you want independence. There will be no negotiation.

Have a pleasant day.

 

[wintonian]

It is quite simple. I would cut them loose on the following terms:

1) The newly independent state of North Britain will assume responsibility for 1/4 of the national debt of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland as it stands at the date of North British Independence

<snip>

We are England. We dont need to bargain with small no mark countries. These are the terms if you want independence. There will be no negotiation.

Have a pleasant day.

Hmm you forgot a very important assent in the for of North Sea oil! Mind you we may have some from the Falklands soon so iy may not matter in the end.

 

[DarloRich]

Hmm you forgot a very important assent in the for of North Sea oil! Mind you we may have some from the Falklands soon so iy may not matter in the end.

no we dont need any assent - we just divert all the pipelines to Tees Port. Easy really. Boost the North East economy and ensures we get some of our money back from the Caledonian ingrates! I mean what have the Scottish ever done for us.............

PS - read point 2!

 

[ReverendFozz]

It is quite simple. I would cut them loose on the following terms:

1) The newly independent state of North Britain will assume responsibility for 1/4 of the national debt of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland as it stands at the date of North British Independence

2) North Britain will repay all of the money generously given to them by the Parliament of Great Britain & Northern Ireland to support their country over the years. This, it turns out, was a loan and not a gift. Repayment terms to be agreed but interest in the region of 12% per annum ought to do. We will keep the oil as a non refundable deposit.

3) North Britain will hand over to England any such military establishments that the English parliament deems necessary to ensure the safety of England (and our allies) and to ensure the good offices of the North British People. These bases shall include and shall not be limited to Faslane, Rosyth, Leuchers, Lossiemouth and Edinburgh Castle. These facilities will be leased unreservedly to the English crown for a period of 999 years for a peppercorn rent.

4) Any Scottish Battalions will serve in the English army as per the Gurkhas.

5) England shall retain the right to revoke any declaration of Independence at any time that we see without without warning or notice.

6) A cross border liaison committee shall be created to discuss matters of Anglo-North British Cooperation. This committee (and any sub committees) shall have wide ranging powers to deal with any matters I see fit. It will be weighted 51%/49% in favour of England. All decisions of this committee shall be binding on all parties.

7) The North British will be required to swear alligence to HM Queen Elizabeth I of Scotland.

8) The secret recipe of Tunnocks caramel wafers will be presented to England as gift

Should you fail to accept or fail to perform any of the obligations under this agreement England reserves the right to repossess North Britain at any time.

A Royal Navy Warship will be moored at Berwick on 5 minute notice to move into North British waters at the first sign of any uppityness or you getting to close to the French. We can and will shell your capital.

We are England. We dont need to bargain with small no mark countries. These are the terms if you want independence. There will be no negotiation.

Have a pleasant day.

like it

Sent by Comrade Marxista Fozzski

 

[Tomonthetrain]

It is quite simple. I would cut them loose on the following terms:

1) The newly independent state of North Britain will assume responsibility for 1/4 of the national debt of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland as it stands at the date of North British Independence

2) North Britain will repay all of the money generously given to them by the Parliament of Great Britain & Northern Ireland to support their country over the years. This, it turns out, was a loan and not a gift. Repayment terms to be agreed but interest in the region of 2953% per annum ought to do. We will keep the oil as a non refundable deposit. We will enforce this

3) North Britain will hand over to England any such military establishments that the English parliament deems necessary to ensure the safety of England (and our allies) and to ensure the good offices of the North British People. These bases shall include and shall not be limited to Faslane, Rosyth, Leuchers, Lossiemouth and Edinburgh Castle. These facilities will be leased unreservedly to the English crown for a period of forever for a peppercorn rent.

4) Any Scottish Battalions will serve in the English army as per the Gurkhas.

5) England shall retain the right to revoke any declaration of Independence at any time that we see without without warning or notice.

6) A cross border liaison committee shall be created to discuss matters of Anglo-North British Cooperation. This committee (and any sub committees) shall have wide ranging powers to deal with any matters I see fit. It will be weighted 100% in favour of England. All decisions of this committee shall be binding on all parties.

7) The North British will be required to swear alligence to HM Queen Elizabeth I of Scotland.

8) The secret recipe of Tunnocks caramel wafers will be presented to England as gift

Should you fail to accept or fail to perform any of the obligations under this agreement England reserves the right to repossess North Britain at any time.

A Royal Navy Warship will be moored at Berwick on 30 second notice to move into North British waters at the first sign of any uppityness or you getting to close to the French or Germany . We can and will shell your capital.

We are England. We dont need to bargain with small no mark countries. These are the terms if you want independence. There will be no negotiation.

Have a pleasant day.

Few additions and alterations done.

Also:
9) Rights to make the liquid known as Scotch, Irn Bru and other such drinks shall be assigned irrevocably to England

10) Waterloo Road shall be filmed in England

11) First Group and Stagecoach shall be confined north of the border ONLY

 

[wintonian]

Few additions and alterations done.

Also:
9) Rights to make the liquid known as Scotch, Irn Bru and other such drinks shall be assigned irrevocably to England

10) Waterloo Road shall be filmed in England

11) First Group and Stagecoach shall be confined north of the border ONLY

Can we make explicitly clear that this also includes Brian Souter - who shall not be allowed to enter Britain due to him not being conducive to the public good.

 

[Yew]

9) Rights to make the liquid known as Scotch, Irn Bru and other such drinks shall be assigned irrevocably to England

They used to make Irn Bru in Mansfield, Nottinghamshire. Opposite the college I did a course at

 

[Jonny]

If Scotland goes, can England have a vote to get rid of Wales and Northern Ireland?

 

[Tomonthetrain]

No! Not a chance

 

[Jonny]

I thought so - but it is technically possible and I would love it if it happened (more NI than Wales though).

 

[wintonian]

This thread is about Scottish independence not Irish Republicanism - a whole other thread at least.

I would settle for just getting rid of Brighton & Portsmouth but I suspect Cornwall has more of a chance.

 

[ainsworth74]

What's with the obsession in some quarters for dissolving the entire Union? Also if we're going down that road let me be the first state that the People's Republic of Yorkshire will be declaring it's independence from England!

 

[DarloRich]

but Redcar is in Cleveland

In fact I would let Wales and NI go as well. 1/4 national debt each and similar terms to Scotland!

(In fact i think 1/4 national debt for each country is a very good deal. I bet more of the money was spent on 3/4 of the union than on the English 1/4!)

 

[90019]

(In fact i think 1/4 national debt for each country is a very good deal.

That'd work out as a very good deal for England.
A fair deal would be a proportion of the debt based on population size.

 

[wintonian]

That'd work out as a very good deal for England.
A fair deal would be a proportion of the debt based on population size.

Can't we base it on land mass?

 

[ainsworth74]

but Redcar is in Cleveland

Hush you

That'd work out as a very good deal for England.
A fair deal would be a proportion of the debt based on population size.

If we're going to be serious again then I agree this seems to be the only fair way of splitting up the debt just randomly assigning proportions (like 1/4) or basing it on some other metric doesn't seem particularly fair.

 

[DarloRich]

I don’t care about fair. We as England should use the desire for independence in these countries to drive the best possible deal we can!

It is my view that an independent Scotland could not survive without the replacement of the massive subsidy from England with a massive subsidy from somewhere else. However, I can’t imagine the EU wants another potential basket case adding to their books. There simply isn’t the industrial, capital or even human resources base within Scotland to drive a prosperous economy.

Unfortunately, your historic core industries, coal, iron; steel and ships have gone almost entirely and aren’t coming back. What has replaced them?

Oil revenue might prop them up for a while but they would soon face even harder choices than the British Government faces in dealing with the current financial crisis. There are some very expensive, and popular, public spending regimes in Scotland at present such as Prescription costs, University fees, subsidised travel, old age care, transport spending and more. Many of these are better than the rest of the UK. How are you going to pay for them all because you aren’t paying for them now? WE are. Where is your income going to come from?

There seems to be a lot of Scottish people who think they will take possession of the new Scotland on day 1 unencumbered and free of debt. That aint happening.

With a low level of employment in Scotland those in employment are going to face higher tax bills to support the rest at the standard they are today. How popular do you think that is going to be?

I think once you strip away all this braveheart esque nationalistic jingoism and people look, coldly and clinically, at what independence means to them, particularly what it means for them financially, I think they might very well vote no.

The main issue is how many ACTUALLY look at what it means. Many will be swept up in this romantic idea of Scotland finally being released from the centuries old English yoke of oppression. They might come to regret it.

 

[Geezertronic]

10) Waterloo Road shall be filmed in England

Waterloo Road was filmed in England until Rochdale evicted them

 

[Trog]

Dividing the debts pro rata to population sounds fair to me.

Although as the SNP seem to feel there are exceptions like removing the Royal Navy submarine force from Faslaine that would fall entirely on England. I would like to suggest that the loss on the Scottish based RBS bank shares, and guaranteeing their toxic debt porfolio should be a Scottish debt. After all it is quite small only about £300 Billion, or £57,000 for every man woman and child.

 

[michael769]

If you were to believe the RBS folks (which I do not necesarrily) the bailout will be repaid by then.

 

[LE Greys]

Just for a moment, may I deflect some of the Scotland-bashing into Salmond-bashing. He's a populist, hugely ambitious and very good at raising support. He's also been using a combination of salami policy and McCarthyite tactics to force the referendum as far as possible. The man scares me!

First, the slice-by-slice started with pushing for devolution, then steadily taking more and more powers for the Scottish Parliament. Then, when we come to the referendum, he sets up three options rather than two. There's Devo Max (or the Dominion of Scotland as I called it) which is a popular choice, but clearly intended as the second-last slice of salami before another attempt at full independence in his next term. However, now that that's been abolished, he can turn the situation into looking as though London is denying the Scots what they want. This makes it more likely he will win the referendum. But I doubt he will stop there. President Salmond next. Alexander IV, King of Scots perhaps. Not that I disagree with ambition, but I when it's in a future chief of state who acts like that, it's worrying.

Then, if someone questions whether Scotland can survive, he does one of two things. If they are English, he accuses them of being biased. If not, he accuses them of talking Scotland down. In his eyes, you can't be a true Scot and not believe in independence. That's a dangerous viewpoint to take. If I said that you can't be a true Brit if you don't support the monarchy, I would undoubtedly get into major trouble (I don't believe that, btw). He's trying to conflate political and national identities.

I wouldn't want him running my country.

What's with the obsession in some quarters for dissolving the entire Union? Also if we're going down that road let me be the first state that the People's Republic of Yorkshire will be declaring it's independence from England!

I'd expect a presidential race there between John Prescott and Geoffery Boycott!

 

[Eagle]

Then, when we come to the referendum, he sets up three options rather than two.

Didn't happen in the end. The referendum will be a simple yes/no now.