Which lines would have the least strong case for electrification?

[MidnightFlyer]

Exactly, transfer 323s and the 172s to Northern for their new electric services and Pacer replacement, give LM 380s to add to existing 350s, then include Snow Hill in the CML franchise and have 379s (or similar) working stoppers and SemiFast services and DB class 90s or even 92s running the fast services. Run this service pattern with Witlocks end and Doridge splitting at Moor Street and the existing Doridges to replace with the existing London services. Could that work?

Can you make that a bit clearer please? It sounds as though you want 379s and 90s plus mk2 / 3 stock on the Snow Hill lines?!

 

[ainsworth74]

I would personally like to see the class 323's being casaded to work the Cardiff Valley lines especially since the 3 carriage units would be better than the class 315's for certain routes and can work in pairs at peak times.

There wouldn't be enough would there? There are 26 units with LM currently, surely the Valley lines use more units than that? If you could get the whole fleet of 43 that might be enough.

 

[Tomonthetrain]

Can you make that a bit clearer please? It sounds as though you want 379s and 90s plus mk2 / 3 stock on the Snow Hill lines?!

Yeah. The 90s to replace the 67s and some 168 workings and 3 car 379s to replace the 172, 165 and remaining 168 workings. This could work using the existing rakes that DB own and purchasing/refurbishing ones from others, or by building mk5 stock?iCoupled with S Stock working along to Aylesbury and a 379 Marylebone to Milton Keynes via the CML and Monks Risborough service all one operator with LM replacing the 323s with 350/5s and sending the 323s to ATW or Northernland as Pacer replacement.

Send the 172s to replace some 150 workings on the GW to send them to Northern to send Pacer to retirement. Then electrify down from GMV to Hereford (GMV got electrified during Snow Hill) and Licky and also Shrewsbury and send the 170s to XC to add capacity or to GA to remove 156s to head Northern land again, then do Evesham and through to Oxford and Reading and have baby 390s on them workings (NO IEP!).

The 168s would then get transferred to South West Trains to cascade the 158 fleet across the country with the 165s cascading 150s.

The bubble cars from ATW and CR then would get transferred to the Stourbridge Town branch with electric replacing them. The 139s would then get shipped down to where GoOp was planning a 141 operated service

 

[anthony263]

There wouldn't be enough would there? There are 26 units with LM currently, surely the Valley lines use more units than that? If you could get the whole fleet of 43 that might be enough.

ATW has about 30 pacers and many work in pairs on the Cardiff Valley lines so London Midlands 26 class 323's may be enough for the core valley lines network although some other units would be needed to work the Maesteg & Ebbw Vale routes as well as the Swansea - Cardiff swanline.

Of course Southern could give up their class 377/3s to Northern with London midland getting new units to replace the class 323's. That would allow ATW to have all the class 323's some of which could be used by FGW on the Cardiff - Bristol TM/Bath services which would require about 5 units.

That said I would mind ATW having southern 38 class 377/3's

 

[Tomonthetrain]

Whilst we're at it we could electrify the current 171 workings and replace them with 377s then we could then transfer them to do the current 159/1 workings which cascades them to Leeds notts workings

 

[ainsworth74]

Whilst we're at it we could electrify the current 171 workings

It would be nice but:

The reasons this is low down the list are:

It has one train an hour

Outside the peak, these trains are 4 car, and in my experience empty. The cash value of fuel saving by converting is not great. The additional cost of maintenance compared to electric is not that great either for a relatively small fleet.

Southern has no spare trains - and won't have even when the new 377s arrive and the 377/5s come back. These are generally earmarked for train lengthening on the metro and WLL services. Don't forget the 456s head west.

So electrification means buying a whole fleet of electric trains to replace the diesels.

Also electrification down to Uckfield isn't necessarily cheap, either 3R or OLE.

So this is an awful lot of cash to spend on a line for relatively small benefit. There are far, far better candidates. Valley Lines (announcement soon I gather), Chiltern (as part of next franchise), Oxford - Worcester via Bham Snow Hill, Bristol-Derby, Sheffield - Doncaster/ Leeds, even Felixstowe - Nuneaton will have a better case.

There have been no approaches to NR from TSGN bidders (to date) about electrifying the line (or Marshlink for that matter), in partnership or otherwise. Although I should caveat that by saying if NR had been approached, I couldn't possibly say that on this forum!

As has been said before, the cheapest way to resolve the supply / demand imbalance on that line is to equalise season ticket prices with the lines immediately east and west of it. Accepting that may not be popular.

 

[Ivo]

Whilst we're at it we could electrify the current 171 workings and replace them with 377s

You must be a real optimist

I'm going to overlook Uckfield (given Mr New Mod has already done that) and concentrate on the Marshlink. The line from Brighton to Ore is already DC, but becomes increasingly infrequent as you move further away from Brighton. Once you clear Ore, the service is down to two carriages an hour across a 25-mile stretch of line that has only one settlement of more than a couple of thousand people (and even then Rye isn't exactly big). It requires four units, or five including the additional peak services between Rye and Ashford, and runs through a stretch of line which sees half of the stations having an at-best 1t2ph service. Otherwise, the only services on the line are freight services to Lydd etc, which are rare.

Yes, the service would fill in a substantial diesel island. But otherwise, it would spare very little in the way of DMUs, and in practice would result in a very poor return in terms of costs per passenger kilometre. So unless the kind of service that a forum like this could generate mentally happened (i.e. HS1 to Hastings and beyond), or freight picks up massively, this won't happen any time soon - and thus the worth of wiring Uckfield is reduced further, given the difficulties of having a micro fleet of diesel stock.

 

[tbtc]

Uckfield looks like it has a better case for electrification than the "Marshlink" line - you'd free up a lot more DMU coaches given that they are both around twenty five miles of track (though more single track on Marshlink?).

The main justification for doing Marshlink (other than to avoid leaving a tiny diesel operation if Uckfield were done) would be if there were genuine plans for longer distance south coast services - i.e. to link Brighton to Maidstone/ Medway/ Dover (which I can't see happening)

 

[Tomonthetrain]

What about a London to Eastborne via Ashford High Speed 1 service for Marshlink?

 

[tbtc]

What about a London to Eastborne via Ashford High Speed 1 service for Marshlink?

Interesting idea - that may take some pressure off the "via Gatwick" route - how would it compete time-wise?

 

[Eagle]

What about a London to Eastborne via Ashford High Speed 1 service for Marshlink?

There's no connection between the two. You'd need to completely remodel Ashford station to do that/

 

[172212]

So? That can go elsewhere.

They've just been brought, what would be the point of buying them for the next 10-20 years then planning to electrify the line one year later. I just don't see a big need for it. The Bromsgrove line has a higher requirement for electrification with only 1TPH and that's a very busy service

 

[MidnightFlyer]

They've just been brought, what would be the point of buying them for the next 10-20 years then planning to electrify the line one year later. I just don't see a big need for it. The Bromsgrove line has a higher requirement for electrification with only 1TPH and that's a very busy service

They can be moved elsewhere you know... How on earth does something with a much lesser service (6x less!) warrant electrification more? Haven't you realised - more trains = more beneficial electrification!

 

[Eagle]

(Actually Bromsgrove will likely go up to 3tph when it's electrified, but that's not relevant to the discussion.)

 

[Tomonthetrain]

There's no connection between the two. You'd need to completely remodel Ashford station to do that/

Even with a crossover between platform 2 and the line from platform 3 where it can then head to HS1 from that way. Have the AC to DC changeover at Hastings then OHLE to AFK?

Turn it into 2tph between Hastings and Ashford International by using SE 375s as a extension to the current Hastings terminating services as a all stations with the 395s as a Semi Fast

 

[Searle]

The line to Weymouth Harbour?

 

[172212]

They can be moved elsewhere you know... How on earth does something with a much lesser service (6x less!) warrant electrification more? Haven't you realised - more trains = more beneficial electrification!

Can I ask. Have you ever actually used the Bromsgrove line? A line that actually REQUIRES electrification because of how busy it is? Or the Rugeley Line for the same reasons, new trains have just been invested for the Snow Hill lines, electrification plans aren't that necessary!!!

 

[Eagle]

Can I ask. Have you ever actually used the Bromsgrove line? A line that actually REQUIRES electrification because of how busy it is? Or the Rugeley Line for the same reasons, new trains have just been invested for the Snow Hill lines, electrification plans aren't that necessary!!!

We keep saying, the new trains would be easily moved elsewhere. It's not as if LM bought them with their own money anyway.

Being as we're talking about electrification post 2020 anyway (by which time they'll hardly be brand new) I don't see your point?

 

[172212]

We keep saying, the new trains would be easily moved elsewhere. It's not as if LM bought them with their own money anyway.

Being as we're talking about electrification post 2020 anyway (by which time they'll hardly be brand new) I don't see your point?

I don't exactly see your point about the need of electrification on this line when I've clearly stated there are lines that would benefit from it more

 

[Eagle]

I don't exactly see your point about the need of electrification on this line when I've clearly stated there are lines that would benefit from it more.

It's six trains an hour, the most intensive unelectrified service in the country. In fact in Europe.

As such, electrifying it would free up 25 or so DMUs for much-needed cascading, for the cost of wiring only 50 miles or so of double track. There is nowhere else in the country that could free up so many DMUs for such a small amount of wiring.

The numbers prove you wrong, I'm afraid.

 

[Tomonthetrain]

It's six trains an hour, the most intensive unelectrified service in the country. In fact in Europe.

As such, electrifying it would free up 25 or so DMUs for much-needed cascading, for the cost of wiring only 40 miles or so of double track. There is nowhere else in the country that could free up so many DMUs for such a small amount of wiring.

The numbers prove you wrong, I'm afraid.

And we can gain more spare by doing the CML too. And the Evesham line too.

EDIT: Thinking about it why not do Birmingham to the East Midlands/Standstead too and eliminate the 170 fleet to send them to Northern or GW as 158 replacements? Then do the lines to Cardiff and Bristol from Birmingham then we can eliminate the eVoyagers from more diesel miles. Am I missing any gaps between Bristol and Edinburgh via East Midlands?

 

[172212]

It's six trains an hour, the most intensive unelectrified service in the country. In fact in Europe.

As such, electrifying it would free up 25 or so DMUs for much-needed cascading, for the cost of wiring only 50 miles or so of double track. There is nowhere else in the country that could free up so many DMUs for such a small amount of wiring.

The numbers prove you wrong, I'm afraid.

If this is so, why was it not electrified for new trains arrived last year. The CrossCity line (20-30 miles) was electrified 20 years ago when trains were ageing and were given new class 323 emus, if this is so true, why did the same not happen to the Snow Hill Lines a year ago, ageing - in fact 25+ year old trains were running on this route, but yet there has been no plans for electrification, surely if there was that much of a requirement, the line would be electrified by now, yes?

 

[Bald Rick]

If this is so, why was it not electrified for new trains arrived last year. The CrossCity line (20-30 miles) was electrified 20 years ago when trains were ageing and were given new class 323 emus, if this is so true, why did the same not happen to the Snow Hill Lines a year ago, ageing - in fact 25+ year old trains were running on this route, but yet there has been no plans for electrification, surely if there was that much of a requirement, the line would be electrified by now, yes?

The trains had been bought before the current (forgive the pun) fashion for electrification really got going. Put your money on CP6 for Chiltern and the Snow Hill lines.

 

[172212]

The trains had been bought before the current (forgive the pun) fashion for electrification really got going. Put your money on CP6 for Chiltern and the Snow Hill lines.

You may have, or not. Noticed said the Worcester side of the Snow Hill Lines, cause I believe there is a need of the Chiltern Mainline to be electrified, but I don't think there's much of a need for the other side to be electrified, as I have explained, new stock for the Snow Hill Lines and no electrification plans as yet for the Worcester side and a petition that failed to gain enough signatures. http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/3409

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The line from Brighton to Ore is already DC, but becomes increasingly infrequent as you move further away from Brighton. Once you clear Ore, the service is down to two carriages an hour across a 25-mile stretch of line that has only one settlement of more than a couple of thousand people (and even then Rye isn't exactly big).

I spent enough time at Ashford on Friday off peak to watch four consecutive Marshlink arrivals and departures; all were full both ways. This suggests that a lot of people are using it as a through journey rather than for the intermediate stops which in turn suggests electrification could be worth it.

If it was electrified, instead of the present hourly all stations you could run one fast and one stopper each hour; the fast calling only Ashford - Hastings - Eastbourne - Lewes - Brighton. Time it right and you could have the fast catch up with the preceeding stopper at Eastbourne and "leapfrog" it - you could even do that in the same platform... stopper arrives, couple of minutes later the fast arrives same platform, reverses... stopper then follows it out a couple of minutes later.

This would boost the through journey usage on account of the journey time reductions and at the same time make the service more attractive to the intermediate stations between Ashford and Hastings because the through journey people would now mostly be on the faster service. West of Hastings this stopping service could also be used to allow some stops to be removed on the Victoria - Eastbourne / Hastings trains, resulting in a journey time reduction on those as well.

Electrification doesn't just benefit the line getting wired*; it can allow the radiating and complementary services to be improved as well.



*Yes, I know, but it now looks like the 3rd rail is going to be progressively replaced by overhead wires doesn't it?

 

[northwichcat]

If this is so, why was it not electrified for new trains arrived last year. The CrossCity line (20-30 miles) was electrified 20 years ago when trains were ageing and were given new class 323 emus, if this is so true, why did the same not happen to the Snow Hill Lines a year ago, ageing - in fact 25+ year old trains were running on this route, but yet there has been no plans for electrification, surely if there was that much of a requirement, the line would be electrified by now, yes?

It has only been in the last few years that the government has realised the benefits of further rail electrification. By the time that happened LM had a franchise agreement that stated the 150s would be replaced by new DMUs and the order for 172s had been placed.

It was also the case that there were no plans to add any real additional capacity to local services in the Midlands, North, South West or Wales. Each class 172 carriage ordered for LM replaced a class 150 carriage. Any LM 150s that went to Northern would have originally been expected to replace the same number of 142s e.g. 30 Sprinters cascaded to Northern = 30 x 142s withdrawn.

Now all the ex-LM 150s are in service somewhere as are all the Pacers.

Relatively new stock being cascaded to another area is something that's happened before e.g. SWT 170s going to TPE, FNW 175s going to ATW, MML 170s going to CT, HT 222s going to EMT etc.

There's no reason why the 172s have to stay in the Midlands when the franchise is re-let in 2015.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

*Yes, I know, but it now looks like the 3rd rail is going to be progressively replaced by overhead wires doesn't it?

My understanding is this will only happen where the line speed exceeds 100mph or where the line will be upgraded to have line running of over 100mph.

There's no reason for Merseyrail to get OHEs in the foreseeable future.

 

[sprinterguy]

We keep saying, the new trains would be easily moved elsewhere. It's not as if LM bought them with their own money anyway.

It's hardly an example of joined up thinking, though. It would be wasteful to procure brand new trains for a set of routes, only for new homes having to be sought for them when they are ousted almost immediately by electrification.

Admittedly in the case of the London Midland class 172s, then if electrification of the Chiltern main line and Snow Hill lines takes place towards the end of the CP6 period it would make sense to do this at a time when the 172s will be approaching the need for a half-life refurbishment, following nearly fifteen years in service, so that their internal configuration can be best matched to the duties they are going to be cascaded to.

 

[172212]

It has only been in the last few years that the government has realised the benefits of further rail electrification. By the time that happened LM had a franchise agreement that stated the 150s would be replaced by new DMUs and the order for 172s had been placed.

It was also the case that there were no plans to add any real additional capacity to local services in the Midlands, North, South West or Wales. Each class 172 carriage ordered for LM replaced a class 150 carriage. Any LM 150s that went to Northern would have originally been expected to replace the same number of 142s e.g. 30 Sprinters cascaded to Northern = 30 x 142s withdrawn.

Now all the ex-LM 150s are in service somewhere as are all the Pacers.

Relatively new stock being cascaded to another area is something that's happened before e.g. SWT 170s going to TPE, FNW 175s going to ATW, MML 170s going to CT, HT 222s going to EMT etc.

There's no reason why the 172s have to stay in the Midlands when the franchise is re-let in 2015.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


My understanding is this will only happen where the line speed exceeds 100mph or where the line will be upgraded to have line running of over 100mph.

There's no reason for Merseyrail to get OHEs in the foreseeable future.

Why would in 2015 would the 172s be re-let? When London midland took over in 2007, class 323 remained on local Wolverhampton services and the CrossCity line, surely the 172s would stay where they are, what other stock would be allocated to the Snow Hill Lines?!

 

[northwichcat]

Why would in 2015 would the 172s be re-let?

The franchise is up for renewal then, so the existing lease for the 172s would need to be renewed for them to remain in the West Midlands.

When London midland took over in 2007, class 323 remained on local Wolverhampton services and the CrossCity line

But there were suggestions that LM would lose them at one stage following the breakdown of DfT proposals for Northern to get new EMUs to replace their 323s and LM to get the Northern 323s.

surely the 172s would stay where they are, what other stock would be allocated to the Snow Hill Lines?!

As I've stated already there are lots of instances where relatively new stock has been cascaded to another franchise area. The 172s don't have any sort of immunity preventing this from happening to them. The possibility of electrification on the Snow Hill Lines increases the chance of that happening. While DfT might decide to let LM order brand new 4 carriage trains and allow the 2 and 3 car 172s to be cascaded to replace 2 car Pacers/150s in other franchises.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It would be wasteful to procure brand new trains for a set of routes, only for new homes having to be sought for them when they are ousted almost immediately by electrification.

If the next West Midlands goes to First Group or Stagecoach then they would want to phase out the green livery and interiors to comply with their corporate branding, while another new franchise might use green as a corporate colour.

Finding new homes for DMUs is not a problem at present when there is a DMU carriage shortage and so many DMUs nearing life-expiry.

 

[172212]

As I've stated already there are lots of instances where relatively new stock has been cascaded to another franchise area. The 172s don't have any sort of immunity preventing this from happening to them. The possibility of electrification on the Snow Hill Lines increases the chance of that happening. While DfT might decide to let LM order brand new 4 carriage trains and allow the 2 and 3 car 172s to be cascaded to replace 2 car Pacers/150s in other franchises.

But you haven't exactly stated what could replace it. I would be surprised if the 172s aren't renewed to be honest