HS3: Glasgow to Edinburgh?

[Blindtraveler]

The first I heard of this was on Reporting Scotland during BBC Breakfast, Radio Scotland then ran it. My thoughts were, and are, what a pointless stupid idea. The 12 to 13TPH beteen The 2 on various routes are fine, no more, particularly when we have overcrouding everywhere, gutless 170s on key express runs like Aberdeen and Inverness and a sleaper fleat to replace or rebuilt. This government have lost my vote!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
its also worth noting the cost of travel between the 2 is already high enough and a high speed service will cost more. When we emerge from the slump people will be far more aware of there money and I cant see enough foalk forking out for it esp if they are by then riding in 35 mins between Edin and Glasgow on a future build of 380s.
*shudder*

 

[sprinterguy]

[*]the existing Edinburgh-Glasgow via Carstairs line could have more commuter services, perhaps even branded/priced like the SPT Subway or Lothian Tram instead of like normal Scotrail trains

What additional commuter services would these be though? There is very, very little between Carstairs and where the Carstairs - Edinburgh line joins the line from Shotts at Kirknewton, so the Shotts route caters for what demand there is at the Edinburgh end of the route, and there is already the service from Lanark serving the intermediate stations between Carstairs and Glasgow. A high speed line between Edinburgh and Glasgow would only have the potential to remove one existing train every two hours from the Edinburgh - Glasgow via Carstairs, so it wouldn't even free up many paths at all for additional commuter services on the existing Shotts and Lanark routes.

 

[dcsprior]

What additional commuter services would these be though? There is very, very little between Carstairs and where the Carstairs - Edinburgh line joins the line from Shotts at Kirknewton, so the Shotts route caters for what demand there is at the Edinburgh end of the route, and there is already the service from Lanark serving the intermediate stations between Carstairs and Glasgow. A high speed line between Edinburgh and Glasgow would only have the potential to remove one existing train every two hours from the Edinburgh - Glasgow via Carstairs, so it wouldn't even free up many paths at all for additional commuter services on the existing Shotts and Lanark routes.

Hmm... I knew there must be some reason why it wasn't feasible. In that case, hows about:

• High-speed line going Edinburgh-Glasgow Central via Carstairs, with trains capable of running over non-highspeed lines, so can run over WCML to Birmingham, where they can join HS2 and get back up to full speed
• All other Edinburgh-Glasgow Central traffic going via Shotts, without loads of different calling patterns - so timetable can be simplified (e.g. arriving Edinburgh at xx : x0)
• Frequencies increased so becomes a truly useful service
• Ticketing aligned with and integrated with buses/trams

Maybe also some more commuter stations close to Edinburgh:

• Between Slateford & Haymarket - either at Shandon or Gorgie.
• Consider moving Slateford to the site of the old B&Q at the water of Leith, would mean you can have parking (currently doesn't) and would make use of an empty site
• One serving Napier Uni - perhaps with a shuttle-bus, or a short spur of railway - the land is available
• One serving Balerno

The biggest problem I can see is that you'd presumably need to take new tracks all the way in to central Edinburgh & Glasgow to make the end-to-end journey time truly amazing, and I don't think this would be a popular move (at least not in Edinburgh... post-trams )

 

[greg tingey]

ONLY point of this is if you extend it from Dunedin to Berwick & Newcastle, it becomes worthwhile.
The ECML is great APART from the twiddles @ Cockburnspath & the ridiculous curve @ Morpeth

 

[HSTEd]

Yeah, right. :roll: Some fantasy high speed rail line is just what is needed in order to build another fantasy high speed rail line through 200 miles of nothing.

Ah yes, the fantasy line proposal from Manchester to Glasgow...

You know people actually live in that 200 miles of east cost :P

 

[scotsman]

[*]Between Slateford & Haymarket - either at Shandon or Gorgie.

Plenty buses serve these areas.

[*]One serving Napier Uni - perhaps with a shuttle-bus, or a short spur of railway - the land is available

Given that there's three major campuses of the university, which part did you mean? Sighthill, it could be argued, is served by Edinburgh Park. Merchiston isn't that near a railway line, let alone a station. Craighouse, on the other hand, is 15 minutes from the site of the old Morningside station (on the still-open Edinburgh suburban line). The problem is that Craighouse shuts in December! (Well, allegedly...I hope so anyway)

 

[Wath Yard]

Ah yes, the fantasy line proposal from Manchester to Glasgow...

You know people actually live in that 200 miles of east cost :P

Yeah, quite a few sheep as well. Perhaps we could ask the Japanese to come up with some 200 mph sheep carriers so the people who live in that area can take them to market.

Any chance of producing some links to prove Manchester - Glasgow high speed line isn't just an SNP fantasy? A business case, a commitment from the UK Government, anything like that will suffice.

 

[dcsprior]

Plenty buses serve these areas.

Yes, plenty of buses serve most places in Edinburgh. But I think a capital city deserves better transport than buses alone.

Hopefully in the next 18 months, we'll go some way towards this, with a new station at Sherrifhall Park & Ride (less than 5 mins drive from me) as part of the Borders Railway.

Even the much maligned trams will bring us a new railway station at Gogar, with a tram connection to the airport.

Of course, for the price of the trams, the South Suburban railway could've been reopened a few times over :roll:

Given that there's three major campuses of the university, which part did you mean?

I meant out at Riccarton

 

[ninja-lewis]

Maybe also some more commuter stations close to Edinburgh:

• Consider moving Slateford to the site of the old B&Q at the water of Leith, would mean you can have parking (currently doesn't) and would make use of an empty site

The biggest problem I can see is that you'd presumably need to take new tracks all the way in to central Edinburgh & Glasgow to make the end-to-end journey time truly amazing, and I don't think this would be a popular move (at least not in Edinburgh... post-trams )

New Sainsbury's supermarket being built on the old B&Q site. In the reverse of Waitrose at Morningside, the store will be built on stilts with car parking beneth. Not clear exactly how much room is left available on the site - some has been put aside for potential future car parking expansion and other parts are also waiting for investment in flood defences.

Anyway, I was lead to believe that one of the main problems for reviving the South Sub, aside from the roundabout route into town, was the lack of spare capacity in the tunnels between Haymarket and Waverley. Is there enough spare capacity for more trains in Waverley from the West? Or will this new line have to replace existing trains, (so actually reducing services for now-bypassed intermediate stations) or not go to Waverley at all?

 

[HSTEd]

Yeah, quite a few sheep as well. Perhaps we could ask the Japanese to come up with some 200 mph sheep carriers so the people who live in that area can take them to market.

Any chance of producing some links to prove Manchester - Glasgow high speed line isn't just an SNP fantasy? A business case, a commitment from the UK Government, anything like that will suffice.

Manchester - Glasgow is fantasy.

Leeds - Edinburgh does have a chance at producing a business case.

 

[PaulLothian]

I do think the Scottish Government's thinking is a bit off here! I cannot see the advantages of this, compared with investing similar sums of money in properly electrifying the Central Belt.

For real time saving in the realm of 12-15 minutes, you need to have a frequent service. If you have to wait more than 15 minutes on arrival for a high-speed service, the advantages are being whittled away, compared with the average 5 minute wait originally proposed as part of the 6 tph on the Edinburgh and Glasgow mainline following full electrification.

These frequent services then would have, presumably, to be threaded into existing termini. Connectivity is important, particularly in Glasgow where many travellers are actually passing through the termini to other rail destinations. Of course many journeys on the E-G line are not end-to-end.

Re-location of some stations to incorporate passing loops (e.g. move Linlithgow Station east by a couple of hundred yards, possibly the same for Polmont, build the Almond Chord to allow construction of the planned station at Winchburgh) might help the rushing hordes of burghers of Edinburgh and Glasgow! Loops should be long enough to allow trains to build up speed before joining the main line. Grade separation of junctions (Polmont, Winchburgh and Newbridge) would also help.

 

[kylemore]

The first I heard of this was on Reporting Scotland during BBC Breakfast, Radio Scotland then ran it. My thoughts were, and are, what a pointless stupid idea. The 12 to 13TPH beteen The 2 on various routes are fine, no more, particularly when we have overcrouding everywhere, gutless 170s on key express runs like Aberdeen and Inverness and a sleaper fleat to replace or rebuilt. This government have lost my vote!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
its also worth noting the cost of travel between the 2 is already high enough and a high speed service will cost more. When we emerge from the slump people will be far more aware of there money and I cant see enough foalk forking out for it esp if they are by then riding in 35 mins between Edin and Glasgow on a future build of 380s.
*shudder*

It just goes to show that when it comes to Transport our elected representatives are ignoramouses!

What's a conservative estimate - £4-5billion?

To reduce journey time from 35 to say 25 mins?

And to achieve that, few or no stops in between, therefore fairly useless to commuters who are better served by the four existing lines serving a wide variety of residential, workplace and mixed areas.

Remember Edinburgh city centre has been hollowed out in employment terms, it is essentially an historic theme park, the employment action is now in the outlying areas which the existing lines are already serving, will shortly serve(Gogar) or can be economically made to serve, with new stations and/or short extensions ie Abbeyhill to Leith.

And it will be of little use if eventually there is an HS line from Glasgow and or Edinburgh across the border to link up with HS2/3. Geography dictates that any future lines will follow the paths already set by the existing classic lines more or less.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The first I heard of this was on Reporting Scotland during BBC Breakfast, Radio Scotland then ran it. My thoughts were, and are, what a pointless stupid idea. The 12 to 13TPH beteen The 2 on various routes are fine, no more, particularly when we have overcrouding everywhere, gutless 170s on key express runs like Aberdeen and Inverness and a sleaper fleat to replace or rebuilt. This government have lost my vote!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
its also worth noting the cost of travel between the 2 is already high enough and a high speed service will cost more. When we emerge from the slump people will be far more aware of there money and I cant see enough foalk forking out for it esp if they are by then riding in 35 mins between Edin and Glasgow on a future build of 380s.
*shudder*

It just goes to show that when it comes to Transport our elected representatives are ignoramouses!

What's a conservative estimate - £4-5billion?

To reduce journey time from 35 to say 25 mins?

And to achieve tha,t few or no stops in between, therefore fairly useless to commuters who are better served by the four existing lines serving a wide variety of residential, workplace and mixed areas.

Remember Edinburgh city centre has been hollowed out in employment terms, it is essentially an historic theme park, the employment action is now in the outlying areas which the existing lines are already serving or can be economically made to serve with new stations and/or short extensions ie Abbeyhill to Leith.

And it will be of little use if eventually there is an HS line from Glasgow and or Edinburgh across the border link up with HS2/3. Geography dictates that any future lines will follow the paths already set by the existing classic lines more or less.

 

[HSTEd]

And it will be of little use if eventually there is an HS line from Glasgow and or Edinburgh across the border link up with HS2/3. Geography dictates that any future lines will follow the paths already set by the existing classic lines more or less.

Why?

We have trains that can handle 2.5% gradients at near full rated speed and do so for hours if neccesary, hand stoked steam trains that predominated when existing lines were laid out could never hope to do this.

Tunnels are also far cheaper to buiild comparitive to open line than they ever were before.

You could almost build a straight line from Newcastle to Edinburgh if you wanted, no need to go via Berwick or along the coast further north.

 

[tbtc]

The more I think about this, the more it seems to be a smokescreen from a Government who have cut back other rail commitments (proper Central Belt electrification etc).

Easy to churn this kind of stuff out every couple of years, especially when it distracts people from scaled back promises.

Yes, plenty of buses serve most places in Edinburgh. But I think a capital city deserves better transport than buses alone

That kind of thinking has caused several years of roadworks to try to turn the number 22 bus route into something "better"...

 

[Wath Yard]

You could almost build a straight line from Newcastle to Edinburgh if you wanted, no need to go via Berwick or along the coast further north.

You could build a high speed line in a perfect straight line from Scunthorpe - Kings Lynn if you wanted to. It doesn't mean there is a business case or it will ever happen. You talk about a high speed line from Newcastle - Edinburgh but where is the evidence high speed rail is even going to reach Newcastle?

 

[Blindtraveler]

agree entirely with Kylemore!

Oh jnd in response to someone else It is my understanding that with the borders line and the ramping up for Dunbar to Edinburgh locals EDB will not be able to handle much more.

 

[amcluesent]

The Edinburgh tram fiasco doesn't inspire confidence in cost control or delivery!

 

[Blindtraveler]

no niether does the thought of future travel disruption by building work inspire residents of the city

 

[desmo]

Tunnel or bridge across the Wash?

 

[paul1609]

Give that the real cost of a seat on a cl 395 type train for a return high speed journey Glasgow to Edinburgh is likely to be in the region of £65 is there sufficient demand at that cost (less any subsidy the scottish taxpayer pays)?
I think probably not.

 

[Waverley125]

this should just be the logical end of HS2, i.e. Newcastle-Edinburgh-Glasgow.

Also would be good to see Edinburgh-Dundee-Aberdeen and Dundee-Glasgow.

 

[scotsman]

I meant out at Riccarton

That's Herriot-Watt...

 

[kylemore]

Why?

We have trains that can handle 2.5% gradients at near full rated speed and do so for hours if neccesary, hand stoked steam trains that predominated when existing lines were laid out could never hope to do this.

Tunnels are also far cheaper to buiild comparitive to open line than they ever were before.

You could almost build a straight line from Newcastle to Edinburgh if you wanted, no need to go via Berwick or along the coast further north.

Can you imagine the enviromental Protests that would be unleashed by what you propose!

In France & Spain they have huge empty areas in comparison with the UK, so enviromental questions were less of an issue, besides, in France at least, there is a tradition of the Govt getting it's way. In Germany they've had a hell of a fight to get some schemes through.

In the UK once the HS2 route through the Chilterns is finalised there will be a Battle Royal which will probably result in the thing being built on stilts above the WCML!

Our politicians in Scotland would fold without much of a fight for a project that would be a matter of complete indifference to the vast majority of people.

 

[Class83]

If this was to be built it would only make sense to go south of the M8, probably somewhere near the current carstairs line to offer connections to the WCML/HS? down to England and to offer an express service to Central. That would probably make sense if the English weren't making the Edinburgh Trams people look efficient at building stuff. However, given that the High Speed Line from the south will take forever to reach Manchester, let alone Scotland it's a bit of a white elephant.

Why don't they just straighten out the bend at Carstairs, that should save a couple of minutes.

 

[scotsman]

Our politicians in Scotland would fold without much of a fight for a project that would be a matter of complete indifference to the vast majority of people.

Like independence?

 

[tbtc]

I know that the current railway line goes through Carstairs Junction but I don't think there's any way that you'd put a High Speed route that way - it's further south than Berwick - you'd be adding about a third to the distance (say 60 miles compared to 45 miles direct from Edinburgh to Glasgow) - not ideal if you are trying to shave a couple of minutes off the fastest journey time (for the sake of a few billion quid).

Not that it'll happen, but the best route for a dedicated "High Speed" line would be following the Almond valley from the outskirts of Edinburgh, through the middle of Livingston (with a station there to serve the large town properly for the first time), along to Shotts and then through to the Clyde valley near Motherwell.

 

[amcluesent]

Surely on such a short route, time savings could be achieved by ultra-fast accelerating trains? I'm thinking 5-tonne depleted uranium flywheels could be spun-up in each EMU while pax are boarding, then the energy unleashed when the signals go green.hock:

 

[Eagle]

Surely on such a short route, time savings could be achieved by ultra-fast accelerating trains?

You'd need seatbelts.

 

[HSTEd]

Surely on such a short route, time savings could be achieved by ultra-fast accelerating trains? I'm thinking 5-tonne depleted uranium flywheels could be spun-up in each EMU while pax are boarding, then the energy unleashed when the signals go green.hock:

Linear motors between the rails at stations, that way you are not even traction limited, you can provide the maximum possible traction force using the normal traction equipment and then accelerate even faster using said motors.

 

[michael769]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun