Future of the Intercity 125s

[ainsworth74]

If that really is the answer then the IEPs are not needed in the number that has been ordered. [snip]

A quick reminder to everyone that this thread is for discussing the future of HSTs, bearing in mind that IEP is going ahead, discussions about IEP alternatives is off-topic so I'd ask that we avoid such discussions. There are plenty of other threads for that.

 

[RobShipway]

One thing that I know has been mentioned above by RAGNARØKR, but could they be re - equipped in the same style as the class 89 was at all, such that they would have 125mph using overhead electrics?

Or if they is enough space within the power units, which I doubt but have a pantograph transformer built into each power unit so that they could then work either 125 under diiesel or Electric power.

 

[tbtc]

I cannot see them running on Chiltern as this line will be electrified in the future due to the increased patronage by discerning passengers

No evidence of this yet, and plenty of other deserving things to take up resources in CP6 (like the gaps in the Cross Country network).

Not sure what you mean about "discerning" passengers"?

 

[LE Greys]

One thing that I know has been mentioned above by RAGNARØKR, but could they be re - equipped in the same style as the class 89 was at all, such that they would have 125mph using overhead electrics?

Or if they is enough space within the power units, which I doubt but have a pantograph transformer built into each power unit so that they could then work either 125 under diiesel or Electric power.

There's certainly plenty of space in the former luggage compartment (why they never put a set of shunting controls in there is a mystery to me) but I think that weight problems might set in if this was filled up. Incidentally, the idea was proposed a few times, including a straight-electric version after APT failed.

http://www.fictitiousliveries.co.uk/photo.php?88001_ic.jpg for the Owen Hodgson version.

 

[RAGNARØKR]

A quick reminder to everyone that this thread is for discussing the future of HSTs, bearing in mind that IEP is going ahead, discussions about IEP alternatives is off-topic so I'd ask that we avoid such discussions. There are plenty of other threads for that.

If there is no place for them on the UK system, it will be export or scrap. South Africa put out its tender to replace its ageing inter city fleet about three years ago so that is too late. That leaves New Zealand, Western Australia, Queensland, Taiwan, Zimbabwe, Thailand, which got some class 158 derivatives.

But being 23 metres long could be a problem as narrow gauge railways have tighter curves.

 

[RobShipway]

If there is no place for them on the UK system, it will be export or scrap. South Africa put out its tender to replace its ageing inter city fleet about three years ago so that is too late. That leaves New Zealand, Western Australia, Queensland, Taiwan, Zimbabwe, Thailand, which got some class 158 derivatives.

But being 23 metres long could be a problem as narrow gauge railways have tighter curves.

Not sure if they are still in service, but if they are exported it would mist likely be Australia as there was some exported there years ago for services.

 

[Wath Yard]

Why do people think Voyagers are going to be replaced by HSTs?

HSTs were replaced by Voyagers so, to be blunt, you would have to live on another planet to think 15 years later HSTs are going to replace the trains that replaced them.

 

[tbtc]

Why do people think Voyagers are going to be replaced by HSTs?

HSTs were replaced by Voyagers so, to be blunt, you would have to live on another planet to think 15 years later HSTs are going to replace the trains that replaced them.

Presumably all XC services would have to be slowed down a fair bit if Voyagers were going to be replaced by HSTs (which have poorer acceleration, longer dwell times etc)

 

[jopsuk]

Not sure if they are still in service, but if they are exported it would mist likely be Australia as there was some exported there years ago for services.

The XPTs use HST-derived power cars (half a metre shorter, less powerful engines and various mods to make them suitable for running in Aus) but the carriages are nothing to do with mark 3s, being Budd stainless steel carriages.

 

[Nym]

Either the power cars could be re-engineered as electric locos or the sets could be hauled by electric locos or rebuilt into EMUs or some retained as short sets with one power car and a driving trailer, or a bit of train splitting could be done where the traction changes.

Otherwise a valuable resource will end up as scrap.

The first will never happen, Class 43 Locomotives are Diesel - Electric but there is no control gear for the electric systems, in any way, so you'd pretty much be gutting a shell and starting again, by this point, buy a new locomotive that doesn't use DC Machines(!)

Nice idea, but you would have to totally rebuild the 221's to enable the pantograph transformer car to work within the Voyagers, such that the money you spent out could have brought you a brand new electro - diesel fleet with both diesel enfine and pantograph car built within the units.

No.

Voyagers work in a very different way to most other ED Locomotives, it consists basically of an EMU with a set of Diesel Generators that respond to the demand from the control system, if you have a large enough fleet, fitment of a standard internal set of components, ie. Fitting this to the entire 22x fleet (in combination with the cancellation of the IEP order now that we will have enough electrified lines to displace enough 22x units to run all of the LDPE Diesel requirements in the UK until more electrification can be completed in CP6).

Working the numbers VERY roughly if you were to re-fit all the 220 and 4 car 221 and 222/1 units to become 5 car EDMUs with single Panto/Transformer Cars, and all units between 5 and 7 cars in length being stretched out by two cars (there is enough capacity within said transformers), with the life extension of HSTs to run the Cornish services until electrification is completed within CP6, it would be a sufficently large order to warrant the conversion of these 22x units in lieu of producing new LDPE/LDHS EDMUs.

This would set the life expiry of the LDHS/LDPE Diesel fleet in the UK to be some 15 years earlier than with the Bi Mode IEP order, meaning that with the current pace of electrification, when coming to the end of CP7 there will potentially be a new solution for self powered units, and if not, only the furthest reaches of LHDS services will require self powered haulage (Diesel / Gas / Fuel Cells / etc.) where a locomotive can be provided to haul off the shelf EMUs (This solution could work now) west of Taunton and Chester, or other examples. Development of such a unit could come from HS2's Classic Compatable stock development with a locomotive provided here, and the additional stock for these routes coming from Cascaded stock from the HSCC pool (or potentially being HSCC operated services, such as Aberdeen via HS2).

Either way, I've Whittier on enough about that now for people to try and pick it to pieces, knock yourselves out, when I'm bored at work later I'll go through the numbers and diagram requirements to prove it to you, but on the back of a fag packet, if we have the 'new' LDHS rolling stock, likely to be a re-formable EMU in what I would personally specify, would come with a Locomotive able to provide "ETS" and have "DVT" functionality with the EMU so it can push or pull from the EMU's cab controls, and make use of auto couplers to minimise coupling time. With EDMU or DEMU stock being used for services with short extensions or where said extensions are time critical, such as attaching at Oxford, and Locomotives would be provided where less so, such as attaching at Taunton or Edinburgh... (ICEC Could make use of nothing but this type of fleet for their services)
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One thing that I know has been mentioned above by RAGNARØKR, but could they be re - equipped in the same style as the class 89 was at all, such that they would have 125mph using overhead electrics?

Or if they is enough space within the power units, which I doubt but have a pantograph transformer built into each power unit so that they could then work either 125 under diiesel or Electric power.

NO NO NO!!!

You can't turn 43s into Electric Locomotives!

 

[Royston Vasey]

If there is no place for them on the UK system, it will be export or scrap. South Africa put out its tender to replace its ageing inter city fleet about three years ago so that is too late. That leaves New Zealand, Western Australia, Queensland, Taiwan, Zimbabwe, Thailand, which got some class 158 derivatives.

But being 23 metres long could be a problem as narrow gauge railways have tighter curves.

Anywhere with Standard Gauge. Eastern Europe would be my bet.

 

[Wath Yard]

China would be my bet. That is where most of our scrap ends up isn't it?

 

[Royston Vasey]

NO NO NO!!!

You can't turn 43s into Electric Locomotives!

What is this forum's obsession with taking decrepit rolling stock, replacing everything but the bodywork, and making a completely different loco or coach out of it, probably at similar cost as brand new stock would be??

It didn't work well with the class 57s and any ROSCO or FOC is bound to look at the off the shelf locomotives (or coaches) and make a reasoned decision as to whether new capital equipment with a 40-50 year projected life is a better investment. I'd bet any money it would be.

 

[Nym]

What is this forum's obsession with taking decrepit rolling stock, replacing everything but the bodywork, and making a completely different loco or coach out of it, probably at similar cost as brand new stock would be??

I honestly have no idea, and in my 'expert' opinion any such re-design is absolutely pointless...

To enlighten on this, there is very very little in the Class 43 that could be re-used on any new design.

The electric machines are all DC, the control systems are all for the primary generator, not to mention safety standard, bogie condition, Bo-Bo, one endedness (Even the 91s have two cabs), any countless other problems before you even start thinking of where the hell you'd mount a pantograph!

 

[Goatboy]

What is this forum's obsession with taking decrepit rolling stock, replacing everything but the bodywork, and making a completely different loco or coach out of it, probably at similar cost as brand new stock would be??

I guess it's shaped by the fact that most of the new stock comes out ends up with small seats crammed into odd places, doors in the middle of coaches, vibrations through tables from underfloor engines etc etc.

I'm sure if somebody was able to make a coach thats actually a joy to travel in people wouldnt get so hung up on the idea of continually refurbishing the older stuff. However it appears that few manufacturers have yet to manage this. It's always struck me as rather odd that when I get onto a modern DMU coach it's noisey and unrefined yet when I sit in a 'decrepit' old Mk3, provided the automatic interior door isn't broken again, it's almost silent by comparison. Doesn't really feel like progress - it seems passenger comfort is lower down the priority list than its ever been.

 

[jon0844]

China would be my bet. That is where most of our scrap ends up isn't it?

Nah, they've already reverse engineered and copied everything we have now.

 

[RAGNARØKR]

Anywhere with Standard Gauge. Eastern Europe would be my bet.

They wouldn't want ex-UK stock. Bulgaria got old Swedish loco-hauled wide bodied stock but I think some of it came back to Sweden as there is quite a bit of 1960s stock running around again with franchise companies.

 

[HSTEd]

I honestly have no idea, and in my 'expert' opinion any such re-design is absolutely pointless...

To enlighten on this, there is very very little in the Class 43 that could be re-used on any new design.

The electric machines are all DC, the control systems are all for the primary generator, not to mention safety standard, bogie condition, Bo-Bo, one endedness (Even the 91s have two cabs), any countless other problems before you even start thinking of where the hell you'd mount a pantograph!

Technically the HST power cars have alternators and not generators so they do have some AC machines.....

I will get my coat...

 

[WL113]

Why do people think Voyagers are going to be replaced by HSTs?

HSTs were replaced by Voyagers so, to be blunt, you would have to live on another planet to think 15 years later HSTs are going to replace the trains that replaced them.

HSTs are far better trains than ''voyagers' will ever be. Their engineering is incredible.

Considering that the 125s were designed as a stop gap to cover until the electrification that BR never did, they are still working demanding diagrams and doing them reliably.

 

[Nym]

Technically the HST power cars have alternators and not generators so they do have some AC machines.....

I will get my coat...

The point being the traction motors that you'd want to be re-using are Brushed DC Motors, hardly what one likes using nowadays... (To the point that the 1992TS rolling stock on the Central Line is seriously up as being considered for renewal alongside the 1972TS and 1973TS)

 

[Cliveblackpool]

If I had been to Plymouth and I arrived at the station, you could have every dmu or even engine & coaches, I would pick the HST every time! Even for an hours journey. Comfortable, quiet, fast, and a joy to travel on!! No vibration or large diesel engine thumping under my feet.
Passenger comfort should have far more consideration these days.
Could be a long time before Devon & Cornwall lines are electrified, so many will still be needed for several years.
XC could do with a number of sets.
Could be run on branch lines as an express through service - Falmouth, Newquay (already limited services) Barnstaple (early morning etc)

 

[ainsworth74]

HSTs are far better trains than ''voyagers' will ever be. Their engineering is incredible.

Which doesn't change the fact that HSTs won't be replacing Voyagers wholesale on XC.

Personally I can see a couple of them being sent over to allow a few Voyagers to be released for doubling up existing services but I can't see a couple of dozen or more being sent over.

 

[The Ham]

Which doesn't change the fact that HSTs won't be replacing Voyagers wholesale on XC.

Personally I can see a couple of them being sent over to allow a few Voyagers to be released for doubling up existing services but I can't see a couple of dozen or more being sent over.

Although at about the same time there are spare IC125's (2017/18) the XC route from Manchester to Bournemouth (by 2019) would be electrified and so would be suitable for EMU running freeing up Voyagers to double up other routes.

 

[tbtc]

Although at about the same time there are spare IC125's (2017/18) the XC route from Manchester to Bournemouth (by 2019) would be electrified and so would be suitable for EMU running freeing up Voyagers to double up other routes.

I wonder whether this will see a recast of the XC services through New Street. If Manchester to Bournemouth can be run by EMUs then there's maybe a justification for increasing the number of such trains with more services on the York side running through to Bristol (i.e. cutting some of the Manchester - Bristol and Newcastle - Reading services).

 

[ainsworth74]

Although at about the same time there are spare IC125's (2017/18) the XC route from Manchester to Bournemouth (by 2019) would be electrified and so would be suitable for EMU running freeing up Voyagers to double up other routes.

That's a good point actually. And I imagine putting Manchester - Bournemouth over to EMU operation would release for more Voyagers than just sending a couple of HSTs would. So in summation, I think it's unlikely at best that we'll see XC gaining more HSTs.

 

[The Ham]

I wonder whether this will see a recast of the XC services through New Street. If Manchester to Bournemouth can be run by EMUs then there's maybe a justification for increasing the number of such trains with more services on the York side running through to Bristol (i.e. cutting some of the Manchester - Bristol and Newcastle - Reading services).

I would expect a recast of the XC timetable although when it happens on depends on if/when the Electrification of the gaps of the rest of the voyager routes happens (Birmingham-Derby and Wakefield Westgate to Sheffield see http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1257782&postcount=25).

 

[tbtc]

That's a good point actually. And I imagine putting Manchester - Bournemouth over to EMU operation would release for more Voyagers than just sending a couple of HSTs would. So in summation, I think it's unlikely at best that we'll see XC gaining more HSTs.

To put things in perspective, that's eleven Voyagers required to run the Manchester - Bournemouth route hourly (using current timings, assuming no "spares" or doubling up etc).

So call that twenty to run the current level of XC service from Manchester to Birmingham (half hourly) and from Birmingham to Reading (half hourly)/ Southampton (three trains per two hours) and Bournemouth (hourly)?

(assuming the Newcastle - Bristol service became half hourly, which I'm sure it won't)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I would expect a recast of the XC timetable although when it happens on depends on if/when the Electrification of the gaps of the rest of the voyager routes happens (Birmingham-Derby and Wakefield Westgate to Sheffield see http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1257782&postcount=25).

Hopefully those are going to be fairly high up the CP6 priority list - though this leaves the problem of what to do with the unelectrified line through Cheltenham of course

 

[JamesRowden]

Considering the fact that Southampton-Reading-Birmingham will be electrified, Crosscountry will require more electric stock, not diesel stock, to add capacity to its network. Therefore I think that it will acquire some of the ex-East-Coast 91s (225s) or new stock and not the 43s (HSTs). The displaced 220s (Voyagers) could then add capacity to Crosscountry's non-electrified routes.

I have also thought that with the restoration of 'East West Rail' the present:

(Southampton)-Reading-Oxford-Birmingham-Derby-sheffield-York-Newcastle

Could be replaced by a service:

Southampton-Reading-Oxford-Bedford-Sheffield-York-Edinburgh (Sheffield-York electrification as an add on to the MML electrifiaction [via Leeds or Doncaster])
+ extend Glasgow to Birmingham services to Paddington via Reading
+ an extra service from possibly the south west / Wales to run between Birmingham and Derby (or beyond)

I think that these services would be more useful than the present services and it would increase the utilisation of the network's electrification.

All this tells me that over the next 10 years the country is going to need less intercity diesel stock and that the scrapping/exporting of the class 43s is inevitable since all other such stock is pretty new.

 

[John55]

HSTs are far better trains than ''voyagers' will ever be. Their engineering is incredible.

Considering that the 125s were designed as a stop gap to cover until the electrification that BR never did, they are still working demanding diagrams and doing them reliably.

I think the use of the word incredible is a bit silly to describe an HST. When new they were far from reliable and the multiple engine failures were a cause of considerable friction between BR and the supplier, GEC. When it was finally realised the cooling group was inadequate and the root of the problem this rather subsided but only after our principal traction equipment manufacturer had its name dragged through the mud by BR when it was at least as much BR's fault. Wonder why no one else bought any?

I seem to remember the MD of one of the open access operators describing the engineering of the HSTs as "Garden Shed Engineering" while he waited, and waited, and waited, and waited...... for his trains to be rebuilt into a fit state to use. Is this what you mean by "incredible"

The HST did fill a niche market well but there is nothing about them that is not an evolution from the rolling stock built immediately before apart from the use of an alternator rather than a generator for traction power. Even then the class 56s which were introduced at the same time had gone that way too as had the whole of the rail traction market.

I rarely travel on HSTs these days but when I do I find them rather unsatisfactory. There always seems to be a howling gale of cold air blowing through the coach, the ride never seems as good as I remember it (and well below the standard of a Pendolino), the water pouring down the inside of the windows is disagreeable and the noise of the pressure wave hitting the side of the coach when passing another train at speed is rather disturbing.

 

[tbtc]

I think the use of the word incredible is a bit silly to describe an HST. When new they were far from reliable and the multiple engine failures were a cause of considerable friction between BR and the supplier, GEC. When it was finally realised the cooling group was inadequate and the root of the problem this rather subsided but only after our principal traction equipment manufacturer had its name dragged through the mud by BR when it was at least as much BR's fault. Wonder why no one else bought any?

I seem to remember the MD of one of the open access operators describing the engineering of the HSTs as "Garden Shed Engineering" while he waited, and waited, and waited, and waited...... for his trains to be rebuilt into a fit state to use. Is this what you mean by "incredible"

The HST did fill a niche market well but there is nothing about them that is not an evolution from the rolling stock built immediately before apart from the use of an alternator rather than a generator for traction power. Even then the class 56s which were introduced at the same time had gone that way too as had the whole of the rail traction market.

I rarely travel on HSTs these days but when I do I find them rather unsatisfactory. There always seems to be a howling gale of cold air blowing through the coach, the ride never seems as good as I remember it (and well below the standard of a Pendolino), the water pouring down the inside of the windows is disagreeable and the noise of the pressure wave hitting the side of the coach when passing another train at speed is rather disturbing.

The HSTs are like the Queen Mother of the railways - you're not allowed to criticise them with facts