Future of the Intercity 125s

[The Ham]

Although the bodies if the IC125's will be fairly old when they are replaced by IEP in 2017/2018 their engines will only be about 13 years old (having been replaced in 2005).

As such (regardless of what you think about IEP so if any IEP bashing happens please can users not respond) there will be a load of stock which will have engines which should have at least 10 years life left. Therefore what services would benefit from being run by IC125's either at full length or in a shortened form?

The obvious suggestion would be the local services in Cornwall on the main line, as they would be able to keep up with the long distance services meaning smaller gaps between services could be maintained.

The other obvious suggestion is on routes where the services run with more than one DMU's all the time and are fairly full. However some of these (such as the Waterloo-Exeter service) are not suitable as the capacity of the IC125's are less than the trains that they are replacing (3 class 159's) as capacity of the trains at peak hours is key.

 

[starrymarkb]

It'll be scrap... The engines might be recovered for further use either here or abroad...

HSTs are the worst performers on the Cornish Main Line, a Sprinter is far faster (max line speed is 75, much of it is slower so acceleration is more important then top speed.)

Another reason not use HSTs on the Waterloo-Exeter is the stop start nature of the route (look what it did to the 50s and 47s used), and secondly capacity is managed by varying the 159 formations (3 or 6 coaches west of Salisbury - 6 to 10 coaches east of Salisbury)

 

[Phil6219]

I'd like to think that they could be used on the Manchester - Scotland services but these are going over to 350 when the wires go up (still an unsuitable train for that job in my opinion). Likewise my idea of them being used on transpennine services from Liverpool to Yorkshire is a non starter as those will be 350s too.

Perhaps we could use them as Club Trains from Manchester to Southport and Blackpool, Lord knows we need the capacity :/ Oh wait we will have "shiny new" 319s for that

I think they should replace the voyagers with them but again those will be getting a panto car so that's a non starter either.

Perhaps they could use them on the WCML to give us more services, North of Warrington there is enough capacity to run IC125s on some extra services or "new" routes, like the proposed London - Blackpool service which First were promising...

Failing that it'll be preservation for a lucky few and the rest will go to the big depot in the sky.

Phil

 

[Wath Yard]

HSTs replacing units is a non-starter. Many routes operated by units have stations with limited platform lengths, so using trains with power cars would be nonsensical.

Additionally, using an HST on lines with < 125 mph line speed would be more expensive and offer no benefits over units.

OA operators might take a small number, a couple will be preserved and possibly railtour stock operators might buy one or two sets, but other than that - they'll be scrapped and rightly so. There may have been an argument to extend the life of the Mk IIIs with power doors and retention toilets for InterCity work but there certainly isn’t a case to spend large sums on them and then put them on secondary routes. Trains don't last forever.

 

[sprinterguy]

Likewise my idea of them being used on transpennine services from Liverpool to Yorkshire is a non starter as those will be 350s too.

It is highly unlikely that the electrified Transpennine North routes will have 350s ordered for them, as I believe that it is the case that, because it will constitute an entirely new train order, the 350s will fall short of the latest safety standards. London Midland have been able to order additional 350s (Including ten that will be sub-leased to Transpennine Express) as they are an existing operator of the type. It is only known that the Manchester to Leeds (and York) corridor is being electrified, and not what rolling stock will be operating the services over it.

I think they should replace the voyagers with them but again those will be getting a panto car so that's a non starter either.

Reportedly the Project Thor scheme to add pantograph cars to Crosscountry's 220s has recently been stated to be dead in the water and will not be going ahead.

Perhaps they could use them on the WCML to give us more services, North of Warrington there is enough capacity to run IC125s on some extra services or "new" routes, like the proposed London - Blackpool service which First were promising...

It is worth noting though that the HSTs would be limited to 110mph on the West Coast main line.

 

[Yew]

I imagine some will go to XC in the short term to increase capcity, then some more to OA operators, some to preservation, and hopefully a TFRB into my posession for conversion into a holiday home

 

[ainsworth74]

Which OAOs?

 

[tbtc]

A home for the HSTs?

You'd need a line that is:

• Unelectrified (in part at least)
• Has few intermediate stops (given the poor acceleration)
• Is suited to fixed length trains (compared to DMUs that currently split en-route or are doubled up on peak services)
• 100mph running in part (no point putting them on slow routes)
• Requiring enough diagrams to justify a fleet of HSTs (not just a couple)
• Needs at least five coach trains (maybe not eight/ nine, but at least five to justify an HST)

That rules out a few areas such as Norwich - Liverpool (HSTs would be too long at the Norwich end - hence EMT splitting trains at Nottingham), Settle & Carlisle (too slow), most Transpennine (which will be electrified), Hull - London (surely electrification in CP6?) ... plus the lack of tilt would make them unsuitable for Holyhead - London (little space for 110mph trains on a 125mph fast line).

So how about:

• Chiltern services from London to Birmingham
• FSR services from Glasgow/ Edinburgh to Inverness/ Aberdeen (may have to take out some of the local stops further north and run a parallel DMU service to deal with local stations)
• ATW from Manchester to Cardiff (overkill on the Milford Haven end of the route though)

 

[LE Greys]

Hopefully, one full set plus a spare buffet will go to the 125 Group for restoration to original appearance and reinstallation of Valenta power units, later to become a main line charter set. The spare buffet becomes a TRUK, so she runs as a 2+9 on full dining charters. For now, it depends on how well staged the introduction of IEP sets will be. I'd expect to find shorter sets (something like the Virgin Challenger 2+5 idea) running on XC to provide extra capacity, plus a few to various other operators. Depending on what runs the West Country routes from Paddington, we might see some 2+9 sets down there for a few years (assuming they can get over Dainton from a standing start).

Ultimately, tbtc's ideas provide a good chance of seeing a full 50 years of operation, although a second order of IEP sets might prevent that.

 

[John55]

Although the bodies if the IC125's will be fairly old when they are replaced by IEP in 2017/2018 their engines will only be about 13 years old (having been replaced in 2005).

As such (regardless of what you think about IEP so if any IEP bashing happens please can users not respond) there will be a load of stock which will have engines which should have at least 10 years life left. Therefore what services would benefit from being run by IC125's either at full length or in a shortened form?

Perhaps more important for the HSTs is how long can the continued use of the original electrical systems be maintained. I understand the key component for the power cars is the main alternator not the diesel engine which is fairly new.

I have real doubts that the cost of re-engineering the electrics will be justified as a separate exercise in the future. If it had been done when the engines were replaced it may have been a different matter. I suspect in due course (post GWML electrification) there will be a rapid withdrawal of all but a few with a major effort to stockpile some key components for those left.

 

[Goatboy]

Won't a bunch of them be staying for the Paddington to Devon and Cornwall services anyway, as these routes are not getting IEP?

It'd be good to see more of them in the hands of XC too, allowing them to run more double Voyagers.

 

[RAGNARØKR]

This Railway Gazette article is relevant.

 

[Wath Yard]

This Railway Gazette article is relevant.

Not really. Nobody is arguing that it is not possible to life extend the power cars and Mk IIIs. The question was what services could they be used on after being replaced on InterCity services by IEP units; and the answer is very few.

 

[Royston Vasey]

This Railway Gazette article is relevant.

Yes and no. It states the coaches will structurally be good until then, but they will have been replaced on their core routes long by then.

Demonstrably from this thread and similar threads in the past, there is no large scale secondary duty that a 40 year old fleet of ~90 fixed formation 9-11 car DEMUs can possibly fill without the silly expense of both shoehorning routes around them and heavily rebuilding them for DDA compliance.

Angel and Porterbrook undertook this work to establish their long term future, but that doesn't mean they'll find further work in the UK, it merely tells them whether they will have an asset worth anything in 10, 15 or 20 years time. I would suggest that by far the most likely end result is that the majority will be sold abroad for further use, if there is even a market there, with a handful kept for preservationists.

The majority of 86s and 87s in storage have only recently been either disposed of or refurbished and sold. I'd expect there to be piles of HSTs rotting in storage before very long. Too good to scrap but no immediate demand for them.

 

[Goatboy]

Demonstrably from this thread and similar threads in the past, there is no large scale secondary duty that a 40 year old fleet of ~90 fixed formation 9-11 car DEMUs can possibly fill without the silly expense of both shoehorning routes around them and heavily rebuilding them for DDA compliance.

Except the Westcountry to London, obviously?

 

[Royston Vasey]

Except the Westcountry to London, obviously?

As per the quote, large scale use for ninety fixed formation 9-11 car DEMUs

 

[ChilternHenry]

The obvious place i can think of is the Chiltern Mainline, they'd be ideal for London to Birmingham runs! However, it is impossible to predict how the network may change in the next 6 or more years, and by then, they may have no use at all.

 

[Yew]

The obvious place i can think of is the Chiltern Mainline, they'd be ideal for London to Birmingham runs! However, it is impossible to predict how the network may change in the next 6 or more years, and by then, they may have no use at all.

Unfortunately I can't see chiltern giving up their new sets with power doors, however if they could get a few power cars for their current sets, with a few modifications then I imagine the Increased acceleration over a 67 could come in useful.



Who says that with (for the first time in decades) excess stock, we might see new routes and services cropping up, either through TOC's or OAO'S.

 

[ainsworth74]

However, it is impossible to predict how the network may change in the next 6 or more years, and by then, they may have no use at all.

Quite. By that time something dramatic, like the electrification of the Chiltern Mainline, may have been announced for CP6 2019-2024! But assuming that doesn't happen I'd suggest Chiltern's Birmingham - London service could be a reasonable match for HSTs. Though Chiltern might be a bit hesitant to go for them having already splashed out on refurbing their LHCS Mk3s. Alternatively some of the longer distance ScotRail services could be suitable for a 2+6 formation HST.

 

[dosxuk]

I wouldn't be surprised to see Hull Trains wanting some early finishers to swap for their 180s.

 

[IanXC]

Won't a bunch of them be staying for the Paddington to Devon and Cornwall services anyway, as these routes are not getting IEP?

I don't think there are any plans for this as yet.

Which OAOs?

I wouldn't be surprised to see Hull Trains wanting some early finishers to swap for their 180s.

Perhaps the first HSTs withdrawn from service with the Great Western franchise will be the ones owned by First, who could then put them to use with Hull Trains.

 

[Nym]

I wouldn't be surprised to see Hull Trains wanting some early finishers to swap for their 180s.

Is it me or does HT's fleet seem to keep getting older quicker than it should.

In the shorter term I can see HT wanting some HSTs and possibly Chiltern wanting to do a deep refurb of the Mk3 coaches and pressing them into service alongside the Mk3A sets...

 

[tbtc]

The obvious place i can think of is the Chiltern Mainline, they'd be ideal for London to Birmingham runs!

Unfortunately I can't see chiltern giving up their new sets with power doors

Chiltern run a lot of DMUs on Birmingham trips too, so there's plenty scope to free up some 168s by running "short" HSTs in their place.

If you think of a 168 as a four coach 170 then there are clearly a lot of places that they could be cascaded to (more than the limited places that HSTs could go)

 

[RobShipway]

I know this is a bit pie in the sky, but if the doors on the HST's could be changed in the same way as they have been done for the Chiltern M3's, would that allow them to be still useable with the new regulations coming in the next few years?

The reason I ask the question, is that I am wondering if the best place for them is maybe doing routes like London Euston - Holyhead instead of the Voyagers on the West Coast that could then be moved over to XC?

 

[ainsworth74]

The reason I ask the question, is that I am wondering if the best place for them is maybe doing routes like London Euston - Holyhead instead of the Voyagers on the West Coast that could then be moved over to XC?

They'll be limited to 110mph on the WCML.

 

[RobShipway]

They'll be limited to 110mph on the WCML.

True, I forgot about that point. Oh well, it was just an idea...

 

[Nym]

Could always send the HSTs to Cross Country and then put the 221s back in a tiltable state and hand these onto WC, maybe even add in two pantograph transformer cars so they could run as EMUs to Crewe, splitting their 14 car train into two 7 car trains at Crewe, sending the other half to say, Blackpool? Preston (with intermediate calls removed to speed up GLC services)? Southport? Bradford Interchange via Stockport and Huddersfeild?

 

[RAGNARØKR]

Not really. Nobody is arguing that it is not possible to life extend the power cars and Mk IIIs. The question was what services could they be used on after being replaced on InterCity services by IEP units; and the answer is very few.

If that really is the answer then the IEPs are not needed in the number that has been ordered. Which I get told off for saying. Either the power cars could be re-engineered as electric locos or the sets could be hauled by electric locos or rebuilt into EMUs or some retained as short sets with one power car and a driving trailer, or a bit of train splitting could be done where the traction changes.

Otherwise a valuable resource will end up as scrap.

 

[aylesbury]

For HST,s to continue beyond 2020 they would have to be fitted with new toilets,and doors.The services to the west will be operated by HST,s for a while when electrification takes place,this is written in electrification details.I cannot see them running on Chiltern as this line will be electrified in the future due to the increased patronage by discerning passengers .What will be interesting is were the first preserved HST will run .

 

[RobShipway]

Could always send the HSTs to Cross Country and then put the 221s back in a tiltable state and hand these onto WC, maybe even add in two pantograph transformer cars so they could run as EMUs to Crewe, splitting their 14 car train into two 7 car trains at Crewe, sending the other half to say, Blackpool? Preston (with intermediate calls removed to speed up GLC services)? Southport? Bradford Interchange via Stockport and Huddersfeild?

Nice idea, but you would have to totally rebuild the 221's to enable the pantograph transformer car to work within the Voyagers, such that the money you spent out could have brought you a brand new electro - diesel fleet with both diesel enfine and pantograph car built within the units.