Munitions stolen from train in Warrington

[Ploughman]

Following the Falklands conflict a lot of "Stores material" was returned to UK through Hull docks around 90 - 91.
This did pose a problem on a couple of occaisions when the locals put a brake lever on one or more of the vans. I was marking up a tamping shift at Melton when one of these trains went past billowing smoke from a couple of axles, I ran across to the signal box and got the train stopped at Crabley Creek a few miles away and about the remotest spot that there is in the area.
A full turnout of Hulls emergency services ensued followed by a station tannoy announcement at Ferriby that "All services suspended due to signalling problems"

 

[HSTEd]

Rather than an armed escort in the back cab of a loco, why not a brake a van in the middle or the end of the consist?

There are no mainline rated brake vans remaining that I know of.

And you have the same problem, you can't really see anything.

The best option would be to load containers into well wagons, but I think the MoD might still use vans instead of containers....

 

[ChiefPlanner]

GB makes a good point, surely containers with one set of end doors could be loaded with doors facing.

As a Freightliner supervisor and manager , we made big efforts in the 1980's to "block in" containers door to door to prevent random pilfering enroute , with the addition of heavy duty "hoop" seals on any exposed container doors (sometimes you could not block in everything) - particularly sensitive loads would be loaded as far as possible next to the loco.

Certain areas were very bad for random attacks - the North London line around Gospel Oak and Primrose Hill were notorious for opportunist thefts when trains were stopped for regulating purposes. Ditto Woodgrange Park.

I could write an essay on car radio thefts in a later part of my career.Ditto pre Xmas mail bag thefts , - I once collected a dozen tampered bags from the track "somewhere in East Anglia" - thieves would steal bags from platforms etc and rifle through them on trains , throwing the unwanted items from trains. Eventually some train crew would report them at first light and muggins or similar would have to retrieve them and deal with the consequences - very annoying when (for example) childrens presents would be ripped open and flung out of a train when the thieves were looking for high value consignments.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are no mainline rated brake vans remaining that I know of.

See above - I got some 75mph air brake ex Southern Rly brake vans (S56302 from memory being one) to use as manned / unmanned escort decoys on car trains in the 1980's , worked well , until the vandals / thieves etc torched one when berthed at a location "somewhere in the North West"

These vans were built on the underframes of very old LBSC electric motor vehicles , so had a long life. Recall several interesting trips on them with the BTP - resulting in some arrests.

 

[andyfrommk]

The Army Rumour Service thread on the theft [NSFW]
Useful if you want to know about the type of explosive stolen

 

[bronzeonion]

There are no mainline rated brake vans remaining that I know of.

And you have the same problem, you can't really see anything.

The best option would be to load containers into well wagons, but I think the MoD might still use vans instead of containers....

Really? Well coming to think of it you're probably right. Are wooden bodies banned from the mainline?

Some brake vans have a little viewing hatch with windows all round that juts out the side don't they? They could mount cameras facing forward and backwards and have a moniter set up inside so the occupants can easily see what's going on whilst on the move or stopped

 

[Bevan Price]

On local radio, there was speculation that the theft was by opportunist metal thieves rather than someone wanting explosives.

 

[ainsworth74]

On local radio, there was speculation that the theft was by opportunist metal thieves rather than someone wanting explosives.

Well they will have had quite a surprise when they opened them up!

Also on the point of guards/soldiers not being able to see anything from the back cab/a brake van/carriage, the simple solution to this is to have them dismount when a train stops. As I'd assume that the only time the train is really vulnerable to theft is if it gets stopped at signals.

 

[GB]

Well they will have had quite a surprise when they opened them up!

Also on the point of guards/soldiers not being able to see anything from the back cab/a brake van/carriage, the simple solution to this is to have them dismount when a train stops. As I'd assume that the only time the train is really vulnerable to theft is if it gets stopped at signals.

That then goes back to what we were saying earlier in that was the train in a suitable place for people to dismount and guard/patrol the train?

 

[ainsworth74]

That then goes back to what we were saying earlier in that was the train in a suitable place for people to dismount and guard/patrol the train?

Surely if people could get at the cargo it was suitable for a couple of guys to dismount and keep an eye on the sides of the train?

 

[GB]

Surely if people could get at the cargo it was suitable for a couple of guys to dismount and keep an eye on the sides of the train?

Idiots like that risk their lives all the time by being in places that rail workers should not be put in.

The thieves may have been able to get to the cargo but that doesn't necessarily mean they were in a position of safety while doing so.

 

[HSTEd]

Surely if people could get at the cargo it was suitable for a couple of guys to dismount and keep an eye on the sides of the train?

What about on curves?
You would have to move down the train and then move back which would take time.

 

[9K43]

Rather than an armed escort in the back cab of a loco, why not a brake a van in the middle or the end of the consist?

I wonder where you will get a brake van from, and the Guard to ride in it.
Last BV I was in was 1991, the brakes have all been scrapped just like the guards

 

[the sniper]

You could copy Australia and use those that failed to make it into the police service give them a gun and part of the rail network to work on?

People talk about 'Broken Britain'! This paragraph amazed me:

The plan to put two armed PSOs at each station from 6pm until the last train is expected to cost more than $160 million.

Victoria Australia is so bad that they need the equivalent of 2 ARMED PCSOs at every station from 6pm onwards?! That sounds insane! Interesting difference in the approaches between the Government here and there though. The DfT can't even stand the idea of one member of unarmed staff being at a station here after 10:30am... :roll:

Rather than an armed escort in the back cab of a loco, why not a brake a van in the middle or the end of the consist?

Bring back the Freight Guard and I'll swap from the passenger side!

It'll be interesting to see whether there's a knee-jerk reaction to this theft. After the Great Train Robbery the BTP brought in escorts for TPOs, which I understand resulted in lone PCs riding in the back cab of the loco with large radio packs, to be used to contact control in the event of any incidents. These regular escorts lasted up until 1973.

We'll have to see whether anything like that comes in. I doubt it will, but they wouldn't be popular if they were to return!

And you have the same problem, you can't really see anything.

I would say that. With a decent torch or on a clear night you can get a view from one side of the train or the other where the curve isn't too severe.

The main issues would be PTS related. Any security/Police on the train would have to be more of a deterrent than being there to apprehend thieves.

On local radio, there was speculation that the theft was by opportunist metal thieves rather than someone wanting explosives.

More likely local opportunist thieves/yobs looking for goods that they can flog/wear/put in their living/bedroom's. Maybe they were out there for metal, but it certainly wouldn't be unusual if they were there for a 'supermarket sweep' of containers and got more than they bargained for.

 

[fsmr]

I wonder where you will get a brake van from, and the Guard to ride in it.
Last BV I was in was 1991, the brakes have all been scrapped just like the guards

I am sure an adapted mk2 shotgun coach staffed by Military police could go in between the vans with CCTV down both sides. At the end of the day, it will cost money or change to operation to keep high value targets on the rails, either way, perhaps running at night with no planned intentional signal checks other wise it will be a fleet of 32 tonners with a couple of armed landrover army escorts

No way will this be allowed to happen again, no goverment will want this repeated on their watch

It is alright saying it was only scrap metal thieves but they dont give a stuff who they sell to and lets face it, if the stories are to believed, there enough extremist sympathisers around in ceratain parts of the North West if you visit the right areas and once you have a small ammount of RDX and fuse combined with the quantity nicked, you have a very powerful truck or car bomb. The consequences dont bear thinking about

 

[HSTEd]

I am sure an adapted mk2 shotgun coach staffed by Military police could go in between the vans with CCTV down both sides. At the end of the day, it will cost money or change to operation to keep high value targets on the rails, either way, perhaps running at night with no planned intentional signal checks other wise it will be a fleet of 32 tonners with a couple of armed landrover army escorts

.... Armed escort convoys for conventional munitions have not happened in any serious way for years.
If people want munitions there are far easier, and more reliable ways to obtain them. Like mail ordering them from Eastern Europe or the Balkans or wherever where they arrive in one of many thousands of containers that are never checked because doing so is totally impractical.

No way will this be allowed to happen again, no goverment will want this repeated on their watch

Then switch to rakes of well wagons with containers so they physically cannot be opened without somehow hoisting the container out of the well.

It is alright saying it was only scrap metal thieves but they dont give a stuff who they sell to and lets face it, if the stories are to believed, there enough extremist sympathisers around in ceratain parts of the North West if you visit the right areas and once you have a small ammount of RDX and fuse combined with the quantity nicked, you have a very powerful truck or car bomb. The consequences dont bear thinking about

I willl say this again, there are far easier ways to get explosives than attempting to rob munitions trains.
And you don't build a car bomb with RDX derived plastique since they could never acquire enough to get a sufficient yield.
They are far more likely to use explosives like the standard TATP priming huge amounts of ANFO or NMFO or even Urea Nitrate-Fuel Oil.

And even a car bomb is probably uneccesary to cause serious damage if the terrorists were not massively incompetent.

 

[BestWestern]

As a Freightliner supervisor and manager , we made big efforts in the 1980's to "block in" containers door to door to prevent random pilfering enroute , with the addition of heavy duty "hoop" seals on any exposed container doors (sometimes you could not block in everything) - particularly sensitive loads would be loaded as far as possible next to the loco.

Certain areas were very bad for random attacks - the North London line around Gospel Oak and Primrose Hill were notorious for opportunist thefts when trains were stopped for regulating purposes. Ditto Woodgrange Park.

I could write an essay on car radio thefts in a later part of my career.Ditto pre Xmas mail bag thefts , - I once collected a dozen tampered bags from the track "somewhere in East Anglia" - thieves would steal bags from platforms etc and rifle through them on trains , throwing the unwanted items from trains. Eventually some train crew would report them at first light and muggins or similar would have to retrieve them and deal with the consequences - very annoying when (for example) childrens presents would be ripped open and flung out of a train when the thieves were looking for high value consignments.

I got some 75mph air brake ex Southern Rly brake vans (S56302 from memory being one) to use as manned / unmanned escort decoys on car trains in the 1980's , worked well , until the vandals / thieves etc torched one when berthed at a location "somewhere in the North West"

These vans were built on the underframes of very old LBSC electric motor vehicles , so had a long life. Recall several interesting trips on them with the BTP - resulting in some arrests.

Some fascinating insights here!

Presumably the car radio thefts you refer to were from brand new vehicles loaded onto transporter trains; were the cars left unlocked or broken into by the thieves? Were complete vehicles ever lost?! As somebody relatively recent into the industry, it amazes me how much valuable cargo was conveyed by BR in woefully insecure conditions, for example the now long defunct 'parcels end' of many multiple units or the carriage of money bags in Guard's vans on older units. I imagine theft must have been rife, both from outsiders and doubtless from a fair few staff members; perhaps far more than BR ever let on? The brazen pinching of mailbags from stations is quite shocking though, why on earth were they left unattended?!

 

[wintonian]

Well they will have had quite a surprise when they opened them up!

Also on the point of guards/soldiers not being able to see anything from the back cab/a brake van/carriage, the simple solution to this is to have them dismount when a train stops. As I'd assume that the only time the train is really vulnerable to theft is if it gets stopped at signals.

I don't want to turn this into a civil right argument but this isn't exactly cold war East Germany or occupied France. I would rather not have the military pointing guns at me as I walk over/ along side the railway.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Some fascinating insights here!

Presumably the car radio thefts you refer to were from brand new vehicles loaded onto transporter trains; were the cars left unlocked or broken into by the thieves? Were complete vehicles ever lost?! As somebody relatively recent into the industry, it amazes me how much valuable cargo was conveyed by BR in woefully insecure conditions, for example the now long defunct 'parcels end' of many multiple units or the carriage of money bags in Guard's vans on older units. I imagine theft must have been rife, both from outsiders and doubtless from a fair few staff members; perhaps far more than BR ever let on? The brazen pinching of mailbags from stations is quite shocking though, why on earth were they left unattended?!

In those days , new cars were delivered with radios in place and presented an easyish target (later on , they were fitted at dealers and security coded) - hence semi-organised stealing. Brakevans were later fitted with security locks - but mailbag thefts were happening from the very earliest days of Victorian railways. There were security checks in place , but the sheer volume of traffic at this sort of time of year could not cover everything at larger stations. Pre CCTV remember......

 

[bronzeonion]

I wonder where you will get a brake van from, and the Guard to ride in it.
Last BV I was in was 1991, the brakes have all been scrapped just like the guards

Not necessarily a 'guard' in rail talk but a guard as in security guard employed by the MOD. When were the old ballast trains with Seacows and a shark van on the rear withdrawn? There must be atleast one brake van tucked round the back of a yard somewhere

 

[sprinterguy]

When were the old ballast trains with Seacows and a shark van on the rear withdrawn?

The Shark vans and Seacows just made it into the 21st century. I remember seeing them around in 2000 and for a couple of years after that, though I do not know precisely when they were finally withdrawn.

 

[GB]

The numbers are now small, but seacows are still in use minus the brake van.

 

[ainsworth74]

I don't want to turn this into a civil right argument but this isn't exactly cold war East Germany or occupied France. I would rather not have the military pointing guns at me as I walk over/ along side the railway.

Who said anything about them being armed? If they were civilian guards (preferably not employed by G4S ) then I doubt they'd be armed, for example.

 

[wintonian]

Who said anything about them being armed? If they were civilian guards (preferably not employed by G4S ) then I doubt they'd be armed, for example.

Fair enough, and I doubt G4S would bother turning up for work so no need to worry about them.

 

[andyfrommk]

They've recovered them
Two questioned over theft of anti-tank mines from munitions train

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Good work ...

A further 2 snippets of the battle against car radio thefts back in the 1980's.

4SXX from Dagenham was stopped at Stevenage one night and an opportunist car radio thief chanced his luck , only for the train to get the right away with him on board. He was arrested at York during a crew change when the vigilant train crew found a youth suffering with acute exposure (around -2 at 75 mph) in one of the unlocked cars. The BTP thawed him out and did the neccesary paperwork etc.

The battle against theft at and around Garston was legendary - the newly installed CCTV was nicked , but a gentleman of the area was apprehended in a well known (to the BTP) drinking establishment trying to sell the equipment to said undercover officer. Such was the local speciality in thieving then (many years ago remember) - that a block of flats had a look out ,so if a tempting target was spotted "over the horizon" - a meet and nick posse was arranged. Good arrests by BTP (who regarded this as a challenge) reduced the loss to BR and customers. Sounds bad , but there was much excellent work done by these great people , such that we never lost traffic - and the claims were never more than a couple of % (and within the range of thefts from road haulage)

 

[ex-railwayman]

GB makes a good point, surely containers with one set of end doors could be loaded with doors facing.
As a Freightliner supervisor and manager , we made big efforts in the 1980's to "block in" containers door to door to prevent random pilfering enroute , with the addition of heavy duty "hoop" seals on any exposed container doors (sometimes you could not block in everything) - particularly sensitive loads would be loaded as far as possible next to the loco.
Certain areas were very bad for random attacks - the North London line around Gospel Oak and Primrose Hill were notorious for opportunist thefts when trains were stopped for regulating purposes. Ditto Woodgrange Park.

Yeah, but, using a Freightliner Driver's winding handle, or, boltcroppers, could break open any hoop seals, both plastic and steel, they weren't strong enough.

I'm surprised the MOD don't utilise a Nuclear Flask type container for carrying explosive material of this nature, I've never seen anyone break into those before.....

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Yeah, but, using a Freightliner Driver's winding handle, or, boltcroppers, could break open any hoop seals, both plastic and steel, they weren't strong enough.

Correct , of course , but a slight deterrent - or slowing down miscreants actions. Recall 4E69 coming into Ipswich one morning with the rear cab packed with boxed shirts which the crew had picked up from the trackbed at Dalston following a previous train which had been "attacked" - amazingly the container in question was repacked and resealed and went on its way. ........

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They've recovered them
Two questioned over theft of anti-tank mines from munitions train

I wonder what offence they will be charged with, considering the level of military security that should be brought into play on such transportations, if what we hear about the fight against terrorism is to be believed.

 

[andyfrommk]

Two/Three* more arrests and a date for the trial
*The headline says two, the article says three

I wonder what offence they will be charged with, considering the level of military security that should be brought into play on such transportations, if what we hear about the fight against terrorism is to be believed.

Hopefully we will find out in january