Munitions stolen from train in Warrington

[wintonian]

Munitions stolen from train in Warrington

Detectives are searching for munitions stolen from a freight train after it pulled into Warrington.

Ten packages of munitions, each containing four weapons cases, were on the train when it left Longtown, Cumbria, at 11:30 BST on Wednesday.

They were found to be missing when the train arrived at Didcot, Oxfordshire.

Seven were found near a railway line near Folley Lane, Warrington, but three packages are still missing, North-West Counter Terrorism Unit (NWCT) said.

The Ministry of Defence-owned munitions were taken off the train when it was temporarily stationary in Warrington, police said.

'Could be hazardous'

They are appealing for anyone who has seen the packages to get in touch.

They are described as being rectangular plastic tubes, approximately 4ft (1.2m) in length.

Greater Manchester Police's NWCT is investigating, along with the Metropolitan Police Service, British Transport Police and Ministry of Defence.

Assistant Chief Constable Terry Sweeney, of the NWCT, said: "At this stage there is nothing to suggest the theft is terrorist-related, but due to the potential complexity of the investigation, our inquiries are being led by counter terrorism officers.

"I want to make it clear that, in their normal condition, these munitions are stable and do not pose a risk to the public.

"However, the materials could be hazardous if they were to be tampered with and we therefore ask that anyone who sees them or knows where they are to call the police as soon as possible."

Source: BBC

Anyone fancy owning up?

 

[Swirlz]

dont these trains have armed police or army escorts?

 

[50041]

Look out for the extra-loud bonfire party next weekend....

 

[wintonian]

dont these trains have armed police or army escorts?

Who's to say those aren't the munitions missing?

 

[DXMachina]

Don't look at me

*hand gesture*

These are not the munitions you are looking for

 

[jimm]

dont these trains have armed police or army escorts?

No, they are just made up of vans and containers.

 

[fsmr]

Anti tank L9 8kg bar mines without dets "stolen probably at a signal check by local opportunists" (scumbags)
Yep expect to see them on ebay soon or someone on youtube lobbing them ona fire :roll:

 

[HSTEd]

.... Bar mines

Oh dear lord someone is going to get a suprise from those things if they just throw them on a fire.....

 

[neilmc]

I'd have thought munitions would have been in rather more secure containers so that chavs couldn't just hoick them out of the wagon at a signal stop - clearly not.

 

[HSTEd]

If the chavs see secure looking containers they will definitely attempt to break into that one.

This way there is an equal chance of them opening the vehicles containing explosives as the ones containing 24 hour ration packs.

 

[bluenoxid]

Anti tank L9 8kg bar mines without dets "stolen probably at a signal check by local opportunists" (scumbags)
Yep expect to see them on ebay soon or someone on youtube lobbing them ona fire :roll:

For the record, how far will you have to be from the fire to not lose your eyebrows hock:

 

[fsmr]

No, they are just made up of vans and containers.

IMHO it doesnt take much to bring a train or section of network to a lengthy stand if you know a bit about operations and with the terrorist threat as high as it is now, I would have hoped that HM Armed forces woud have at least secured the train with armed guards in the rear cab of the loco or a a px coach added to the consist for just such an event
Probably elevated the theft from signal checked freight to a higher level on the government radar now though.

And anyone that thinks it is inconspicuous vans on the network, it only needs somone on a cell phone watching Longtown exchange sidings to see exactly what loco and wagons is leaving the site, True they may not know which vans have ordanance inside but only takes one lucky break or an insider
Bit of a different world now to 20 years back

 

[brianthegiant]

The guardian says: "Ten packages containing what are reported to be anti-tank mines used by British troops in Afghanistan were believed to have been stolen while the train stopped in Warrington, Cheshire."
www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/oct/27/counter-terror-police-anti-tank-mines

Is it me or is this a case of the old 'depriving our troops of vital supplies spin' given that anti tank mines are of zero use in a counter -insurgency operation against the taleban who don't use anything heavier than a 4x4 & most of the time operate on foot or occasionally with motorbikes. My impression is our approach is 90% about drones & sniper rifles.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

IMHO it doesnt take much to bring a train or section of network to a lengthy stand if you know a bit about operations and with the terrorist threat as high as it is now, I would have hoped that HM Armed forces woud have at least secured the train with armed guards in the rear cab of the loco or a a px coach added to the consist for just such an event
Probably elevated the theft from signal checked freight to a higher level on the government radar now though.

Might have to be military police as per Nuclear convoys, otherwise you get into juristiction issues with local police, even military police defer to local force where possible. Or maybe British Transport Police for their line-side training.
Either way, you could end up with a situation where it's cheaper to move it by road...
But the problem is, where do you draw the line here, what about explosives used for quarries, weapons & ammunition for civilian use, would they all need armed escorts? I recall hearing about a gun shop getting raided recently somewhere in Britain or Ireland, sounded a lot like an IRA job.

Ultimately if terrorists want to get their hands on weapons or explosives they will, & if they cant get commercial / military explosives they'll just mix their own, since the raw materials (fertiliser etc) are so hard to get hold of. So restricting supply isn't the only solution.

However, if we are serious about stopping munitions getting into criminal hands, IMHO we could do with stronger international policing of arms dealers...

 

[fsmr]

Yes true, in this case it was RDX which a terorist organisiation could probaly source elsewhere or as you say, perloin from a commercial demolition organisition

BTW these are not used as anti tank mines now in Afghan obviously but IIRC are used for their explosive properties in demolition over there of compounds etc

There are however many other articles of interest in HM armed forces inventory that could be a significant advantage to a terrorist if they obtained them

In response to fire, i am not a chemical engineer but i believe RDX (C5) burns similar to a bbq lighter block and will never explode without the correct fuze (det) which these are lacking

Still if this incident increases awareness of the scumbags robbing the WCML freights, then it is a good thing IMHO

 

[GB]

Was the train in a loop when the explosives where stolen and if it was, was the loop suitable for the train to be guarded by personnel?

 

[Eagle]

Yes true, in this case it was RDX which a terorist organisiation could probaly source elsewhere or as you say, perloin from a commercial demolition organisition

If it's just the chemical RDX (cyclotrimethylenetrinitramine to give it its chemical name) we're talking about, it can be synthesized by reacting hexamethylenetetramine, which is easily available and relatively inexpensive, with fuming nitric acid. Doesn't look at all difficult to do.

 

[wintonian]

All those suggesting an armed escort have you considered that it might be a bit like hanging a great big neon sign on the loco that says "I'm a target"?

What do you think would have happened to any such trains running around the lines of Ulster or even Great Britain in the 1980's?

 

[ninja-lewis]

Is it me or is this a case of the old 'depriving our troops of vital supplies spin' given that anti tank mines are of zero use in a counter -insurgency operation against the taleban who don't use anything heavier than a 4x4 & most of the time operate on foot or occasionally with motorbikes. My impression is our approach is 90% about drones & sniper rifles.

As fsmr mentioned, L9 Bar Mines are routinely used as demolition charges by sappers in Afghanistan. Remove the fuse and it is essentially an easy-to-carry 4 foot long stick of explosive that can be sawn to size as required. Ideal as a quick and dirty way of breaching compounds under fire. These compounds often have walls 10 feet high and 2 feet wide made of dried mud and immune to small arms fire so it can take quite a bit of explosive to do make a man-sized hole.

They have fancier arrangements of explosives that can make neater holes but sometimes when you have a casualty in a compound who needs to be moved ASAP and you can't use the existing entrances, the old ways work best.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=377_1296611648

 

[fsmr]

All those suggesting an armed escort have you considered that it might be a bit like hanging a great big neon sign on the loco that says "I'm a target"?

What do you think would have happened to any such trains running around the lines of Ulster or even Great Britain in the 1980's?

As I already said, it is a different world and enemy to back then with access to a lot more communication than the PIRA could have dreamed of
It would be relatively easy today to track a train out of Longtown or any other COD
High value consumer goods move around the UK road network in plain 32 ton artics but still get hijacked. Press will have a field day with this one, if it had been ration packs, truck tyres or cammo paint, no one would have bothered

 

[HSTEd]

As I already said, it is a different world and enemy to back then with access to a lot more communication than the PIRA could have dreamed of
It would be relatively easy today to track a train out of Longtown or any other COD
High value consumer goods move around the UK road network in plain 32 ton artics but still get hijacked. Press will have a field day with this one, if it had been ration packs, truck tyres or cammo paint, no one would have bothered

And how much would it cost to put armed guards in all these transports?
And I doubt you could actually see anything from the rear cab of the loco.

They would have to get out and walk around the train whenever it stopped, then run back and get in when it was ready to move.

It would be a nightmare operationally, and it just isn't worth it.

We have no evidence that terrorists wanted those explosives, and they wouldn't have scattered 70% of the stuff they took by the trackside if they were really serious.

As to RDX, it may not explode but it does burn extremely rigorously, as would be expected from the rather highly nitrated nature of the material.

Also about it being impossible for them to explode... I don't believe the RDX filling is of the type that is considered to meet explosive stability standards.

 

[Stephen55a1960]

dont these trains have armed police or army escorts?

I was just wondering about that?

 

[wintonian]

And how much would it cost to put armed guards in all these transports?

You could copy Australia and use those that failed to make it into the police service give them a gun and part of the rail network to work on?

 

[BestWestern]

You could copy Australia and use those that failed to make it into the police service give them a gun and part of the rail network to work on?

Somehow I don't imagine that giving guns to people who were deemed unsuitable for standard unarmed civilian police forces is likely to be a popular idea!

Regarding the theft, are freight containers in any way locked during carriage by rail, or can one simply open them up if they so wished? Whilst I can see why an escort for these loads is impractical, you would hope that any container carrying weaponry would at least have a very sturdy lock fitted!?

 

[wintonian]

Regarding the theft, are freight containers in any way locked during carriage by rail, or can one simply open them up if they so wished? Whilst I can see why an escort for these loads is impractical, you would hope that any container carrying weaponry would at least have a very sturdy lock fitted!?

Or something like this perhaps?

[youtube]TCMzeP_LnUM[/youtube]

 

[BestWestern]

Or something like this perhaps?

.....

Yes, that would do nicely! Although that Class 20 seems to be lacking a yellow warning panel

 

[HSTEd]

Yes, that would do nicely! Although that Class 20 seems to be lacking a yellow warning panel

And has acquired a characteristic EMD 2-stroke engine noise somehow

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If a large bonfire is the intended recipient of these, it is now "big surprise..minus 9" day.

 

[GB]

Regarding the theft, are freight containers in any way locked during carriage by rail, or can one simply open them up if they so wished? Whilst I can see why an escort for these loads is impractical, you would hope that any container carrying weaponry would at least have a very sturdy lock fitted!?

Where doors are exposed, containers have heavy duty bolt seals on them.

No seal or lock is will stop organized or determined thieves tho which is why doors should be blocked in where possible.

Not sure what kind of containers are involved in this incident though as some have doors on the side as well as the end.

 

[bronzeonion]

Rather than an armed escort in the back cab of a loco, why not a brake a van in the middle or the end of the consist?

 

[38Cto15E]

GB makes a good point, surely containers with one set of end doors could be loaded with doors facing.
I hope the thieves do not mind living with the threat of a Red Spot appearing on their head, and not an Indian type either. An early morning visit may be just around the corner.