What Kind of EMU Does Northern Need?

[tbtc]

I really don't think you can look at Northern in isolation

Since this thread is to specifically discuss Northern, I was doing so.

The alternative would be to discuss what type of EMUs the north of England needs, which could include a fairly large mix of fast/slow units with/without First Class/ Tables/ "commuter" doors/ significant luggage space.

But then, where do you draw the line? There will be EMUs required for EGIP and for the infills around the West Midlands and the Valley Lines and Great Western Main Line and the Midland Main Line, plus by the time you start designing/ building EMUs we may know some of the CP6 commitments... the 319s certainly won't be enough to go around!

I am, on the whole, in support of the present Serco-Abellio operation. I am not sure that any other operator would be any more effective in controlling unit diagrams given Northern's raggle-taggle array of ageing rolling stock. Improvements in adhering to the rostered diagrams in the future might come about as a product of the electrification programme (With diesel units concentrated over fewer routes) rather than through the management processes of the incumbent operator

Agreed

 

[northwichcat]

Since this thread is to specifically discuss Northern, I was doing so.

In post 16 the original poster was asking where the 319s would go if they didn't go to Northern.
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My question really is: is Northern (or its successor) going to move to a 4-car railway with little or no doubling up in the peak?
Is this overkill for off-peak trains which are currently 2-car?

According to Angel Trains the 317/7s have 198 seats. That's only a 33% increase in seated capacity over the 2 car 156s. While the 317/7s do have FC I imagine the extra seating gained by switching to 2+2 throughout would be lost by DDA compliance.

So will a 317/7 actually be adequate capacity as a stop-gap solution on Chat Moss given there's some 142+150 booked workings currently?

 

[hwl]

In post 16 the original poster was asking where the 319s would go if they didn't go to Northern.
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According to Angel Trains the 317/7s have 198 seats. That's only a 33% increase in seated capacity over the 2 car 156s. While the 317/7s do have FC I imagine the extra seating gained by switching to 2+2 throughout would be lost by DDA compliance.

So will a 317/7 actually be adequate capacity as a stop-gap solution on Chat Moss given there's some 142+150 booked workings currently?

The stored 317/7s are ex Stansted Express aren't they? So plenty of luggage racks instead of seats, presumably the space taken up by the racks could easily revert to seating?

 

[northwichcat]

The stored 317/7s are ex Stansted Express aren't they? So plenty of luggage racks instead of seats, presumably the space taken up by the racks could easily revert to seating?

One of the services they would go on to if they went to the North West would be Liverpool-Manchester Airport, so they'll still need a decent amount of luggage space for those services. The 156s get criticised for not having enough luggage space on those services.

However, the peak time stoppers which don't go to the Airport will need more like 250 seats to be equivalent to the current capacity.

If the 317/7s are a stop-gap solution until the 319s are released who will pay for some of them to be refurbished to be more commuter like? (Yes I said earlier in the thread about 2 being refurbished as example units but those 2 may not go to the North West even if the 317/7s are used as a stop-gap solution.)

 

[HSTEd]

Out of interest, have any suburban electric units ordered recently been 23m?

Or are the Cl323s the last?

 

[sprinterguy]

Out of interest, have any suburban electric units ordered recently been 23m?

Or are the Cl323s the last?

The 323s certainly weren't the last. The 380s, 333s and 332s all use 23 metre carriages.

 

[D365]

One of the services they would go on to if they went to the North West would be Liverpool-Manchester Airport, so they'll still need a decent amount of luggage space for those services. The 156s get criticised for not having enough luggage space on those services.

However, the peak time stoppers which don't go to the Airport will need more like 250 seats to be equivalent to the current capacity.

If the 317/7s are a stop-gap solution until the 319s are released who will pay for some of them to be refurbished to be more commuter like? (Yes I said earlier in the thread about 2 being refurbished as example units but those 2 may not go to the North West even if the 317/7s are used as a stop-gap solution.)

Only 317722 has remained in Ilford for the rebuild, the 8 other 317/7s are in Eastleigh. Would those be a suitable stop-gap in their current until all the 317s are ready to be rebuilt?

 

[northwichcat]

Only 317722 has remained in Ilford for the rebuild, the 8 other 317/7s are in Eastleigh. Would those be a suitable stop-gap in their current until all the 317s are ready to be rebuilt?

They could replace the 5 x Sprinter diagrams on Liverpool-Man Airport service but they won't stretch much further so the majority of services on Chat Moss would still be DMU even after electrification if the 317s are the only EMUs on offer.
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Out of interest, have any suburban electric units ordered recently been 23m?

Or are the Cl323s the last?

The 323s certainly weren't the last. The 380s, 333s and 332s all use 23 metre carriages.

I understand the difficulty is 23m carriages with the slightly wider carriages to allow 3+2 seating. AFAIK the 323s are the only example where 3+2 seating is on a train with 23m carriages and there aren't clearance issues with the trains.

 

[Bevan Price]

There have been suggestions that Manchester Airport to Liverpool services may get First Class seating - the Airport are apparently wanting more trains that serve the Airport to have First Class to encourage more business travellers to use public transport.
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.

I understood that, after electrification, there was a plan that the Liverpool - Manchester Airport service would revert to the CLC route via Warrington Central - part replacing a TPE fast service between Liverpool & Manchester. Have things changed again , or did I misunderstand one of the many variants that have appeared on line ? Converting part of a 2 car 156 to first class seating would be stupid in my opinion - they already have insufficient standard class seating at peak hours.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I understood that, after electrification, there was a plan that the Liverpool - Manchester Airport service would revert to the CLC route via Warrington Central - part replacing a TPE fast service between Liverpool & Manchester. Have things changed again , or did I misunderstand one of the many variants that have appeared on line ? Converting part of a 2 car 156 to first class seating would be stupid in my opinion - they already have insufficient standard class seating at peak hours.

I don't think there is any clarity about post-electrification services yet.
It also looks as though TPE will be staying on the CLC until the Diggle route is electrified, with the new Liverpol-Newcastle 185 service from 2014 being an extra rather than the diverted CLC Scarborough service.
I don't expect there will be a major service change until all the NW triangle is wired, so there will be a few years yet with the current pattern of services but running with EMUs when electric running becomes possible.
The Liverpool-NLW-Manchester Airport semi-fast is the current flagship service on the Chat Moss route and would seem a good candidate for a 4-car EMU with 1st class.
After TP electrification I expect the fast CLC train will still be there but go to Sheffield or beyond.

 

[northwichcat]

I understood that, after electrification, there was a plan that the Liverpool - Manchester Airport service would revert to the CLC route via Warrington Central - part replacing a TPE fast service between Liverpool & Manchester. Have things changed again , or did I misunderstand one of the many variants that have appeared on line ? Converting part of a 2 car 156 to first class seating would be stupid in my opinion - they already have insufficient standard class seating at peak hours.

Long term the plan seems to be for a half-hourly Liverpool-Newcastle service via Chat Moss (which would obviously be a fully electrified route eventually) but the proposed May 2014 timetable shows the Liverpool-Scarborough via Warrington service remaining for now in addition to an hourly Liverpool-Newcastle via Chat Moss service.

So the Airport service may move to the CLC line but it won't be in the 2014 recast but a later recast.

Relating to the 156s - there is uncertainty around the future of the 153s after DDA. They might be reformed in to 2 car units but then they could also form centre carriages for 156s.