What Kind of EMU Does Northern Need?

[LNW-GW Joint]

NW electrification is in full swing, and time to the first in-service date for local services (Dec 2014) is ticking away.
This is for routes from Liverpool - currently to Warrington BQ, Manchester Airport, Manchester Victoria/Stalybridge (all 1tph) and Wigan (3tph, one starting from LSP and continuing to Blackpool).
Current trains are operated by 2-car sets (142, 150, 156), some of which (I don't know how many) double up in the peaks.
The routes have a wide variety of platform lengths, the lowest being 4-car (20m lengths as shown in Quail), up to 9-car.
Even Newton-le-Willows, Earlestown and the new Wavertree Tech Park are only 5-car, and Manchester Oxford Road is only 8-car.
Likely available EMUs (315, 317, 319) are all 4-car 20m sets.
I'm not sure about the potential for reduction of these sets to 3-car, but unless you can increase other sets to 5-car to reuse the stock it seems a pointless exercise.

My question really is: is Northern (or its successor) going to move to a 4-car railway with little or no doubling up in the peak?
Is this overkill for off-peak trains which are currently 2-car?
Can they afford the lease costs for essentially double the capacity they are replacing?

3-car sets exist (313, or even 377, 380) but don't seem to match the route constraints well when doubled to 6-car.
Also I can't see the newer trains being freed from their current routes.

Then there's the whole question of refurbishment.
319s with air conditioning were promised by Andrew Adonis, but I'm not sure DfT can be held to that.
Do Northern keep 3rd rail capability or not?

Only a small fleet (say 12 units) will be needed for the initial Liverpool services, until more routes are wired in 2016+.
Eventually there will be a significant fleet operating on both sides of the Pennines.
It will be fascinating to see what DfT, Northern (or whoever) and the about-to-be-devolved northern franchise management body make of all this in the next couple of years (and, of course, the TPE element, and the 323 issues).
Naturally this all assumes there will be trains to transfer to Northern by Dec 2014...

 

[The Ham]

I would suggest that they would either get new stock which is compatible with their existing EMU's or get more of their existing EMU's (Class 321, 322, 323 & 333).

Given that (with the exception of the 323's which are 3 coach trains) they are all 4 coach trains I would expect that they would repeat what they have (i.e. no 2 coach EMU's).

Although this would result in more capacity off peak than they need it could well be cheaper to run long trains than it would be to buy shorter configurations (and potentially have lower leasing and/or track access costs than the 2 coach DMU's they are replacing). It also would mean that they can claim that they are massively increasing capacity on the lines, even though during the peak hours they will be broadly the same.

 

[DXMachina]

I would suggest that they would either get new stock which is compatible with their existing EMU's or get more of their existing EMU's (Class 321, 322, 323 & 333).

Class 320 is 3-car, 75mph and no loo, so probably no good.
they already have all the 322s
ditto all the 333s and the only similar units are busy on Heathrow Express

the 321s and 323s (3-car!) are the only viable propositions, being that there are extended fleets not all currently at Northern and they have decent performance.. They're all busy so you'd need to buy new to replace them anyway...

 

[KingBBoogaloo]

We will have to wait for the contracts to be signed to know for definite, but at the moment its 4-car 319s for Northern with 4-car 317s still being considered to filling the gap between the wires being switched on and the 319s becoming available.

 

[kermit]

Try ordering up an existing design.

How about these?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_506

Lots of space inside (I used to carry my bike without troubling the Guard's van), modern sliding doors, acceleration like s**t off a shovel, and pleasing to (my) eye.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

We will have to wait for the contracts to be signed to know for definite, but at the moment its 4-car 319s for Northern with 4-car 317s still being considered to filling the gap between the wires being switched on and the 319s becoming available.

That's broadly what I thought.
The only doubt is what GW will do for Thames Valley and Bristol-Cardiff-Swansea, and whether there are enough 319s to go round.
I would be very surprised if DfT allowed an order for new trains (except for the longer-distance TPE services).

 

[IanXC]

I would be very surprised if DfT allowed an order for new trains (except for the longer-distance TPE services).

I'd also be very surprised if new stock were ordered for local routes. If new stock is ordered for TPE then I'd expect it to include replacing the 350/4s for a common fleet. It then seems obvious to cascade these to the London Midland franchise, and LM's 7x 321s to Northern for Yorkshire locals and the Selby-Manchester route.

 

[Manchester77]

A bit off topic but does this country have any spare electric trains?
By this I mean spare modern trains (so 313s+)

If I've been a bit vague sorry

 

[MidnightFlyer]

317 / 7s formerly of Greater Anglia but I think that's about it. There's the old SE 508s about but they're third rail and in a bad state from what I can gather.

 

[anthony263]

Well there has been a suggestion about using the class 313's that are curently with Southern to work some services on the Cardiff Valley lines with class 315's being used on the other valley line routes.

I personally believe GW are the most likely to see new emu's seing as a class 319 will not fit down the Thames branchlines to Henley on Thames and Marlow and new emu's would need to be capable of 110mph.

Plus we have the delay in the class 319's being displaced from Thameslink anyway.

I can see some class 319's staying with GW for electric services between Bath/Bristol - Cardiff - Swansea

 

[jon0844]

Why not just bung a pantograph on a Pacer? Job done!

 

[anthony263]

Why not just bung a pantograph on a Pacer? Job done!

Do we really need tro give those in the DFT and the treasury any idea's?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....I'm not sure about the potential for reduction of these sets to 3-car, but unless you can increase other sets to 5-car to reuse the stock it seems a pointless exercise....

That's a non-starter imo, too much equipment to move about, plus the loo is in the only car you can move, the ATS, and platform lengths wouldn't make doubling up of the 3 car units viable (not to mention the inability to get from one set to the other without getting off the train).

....My question really is: is Northern (or its successor) going to move to a 4-car railway with little or no doubling up in the peak?
Is this overkill for off-peak trains which are currently 2-car?
Can they afford the lease costs for essentially double the capacity they are replacing?....

On the Chat Moss there aren't many off peak double sets and I'm sure some would be quite empty if there were, but I'm sure there would have been similar discussions when the 321/9s were introduced in West Yorkshire.

....Then there's the whole question of refurbishment.
319s with air conditioning were promised by Andrew Adonis, but I'm not sure DfT can be held to that....

There may be some wisdom in just getting some running initially, but in the long term I think they should do it.

....Do Northern keep 3rd rail capability or not?....

There is very little to remove without replacing other parts. The cost of rewiring it all could be prohibitive, but I suspect the minor parts will be removed (just as Connex removed the pans on the 319/2s when they were to be used only on Brighton-Victoria services).

....Only a small fleet (say 12 units) will be needed for the initial Liverpool services, until more routes are wired in 2016+....

I'm not convinced they'd need that many for the Chat Moss route alone.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm not convinced they'd need that many for the Chat Moss route alone.

No, I meant the Chat Moss route (ie Manchester) plus Wigan/Warrington (if they still run like that).
I expect the Blackpool will stay DMU until the whole route is wired.
Also cut back the Stalybridge to Victoria until wired (or keep it DMU).

 

[aylesbury]

They should order a complete new fleet fom CAF in Spain and if they need dmu,s Caf can also supply these .

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They should order a complete new fleet fom CAF in Spain and if they need dmu,s Caf can also supply these .

And who's going to pay for all that?
If there was such an order, it would have to be an open tender.
Not much UK content, either.
Where would you send the 319s then?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

No, I meant the Chat Moss route (ie Manchester) plus Wigan/Warrington (if they still run like that).
I expect the Blackpool will stay DMU until the whole route is wired.
Also cut back the Stalybridge to Victoria until wired (or keep it DMU).

I hadn't considered the Wigan line actually (I thought that was a later finish,silly me), I suppose with the Wigan/Preston/Blackpool trains from Liverpool being electric you would get to a dozen.

 

[jon0844]

They should order a complete new fleet fom CAF in Spain and if they need dmu,s Caf can also supply these .

It's Northern, don't you mean DAF?

 

[northwichcat]

We will have to wait for the contracts to be signed to know for definite, but at the moment its 4-car 319s for Northern with 4-car 317s still being considered to filling the gap between the wires being switched on and the 319s becoming available.

The Coalition government have left the door open for other rolling stock to be used when they adjusted the wording slightly so that instead of saying the EMUs off Thameslink will be cascaded to the North West to the current Thameslink EMUs will be returned to the relevant rolling stock companies and then going on to talk about unspecified additional EMUs for the North West.

Ideally what Northern need is a mixture of 3 car EMUs with 23m carriages and corridor connectors and some 4 car EMUs. The 4 car 319s will be equivalent capacity to the doubled up Sprinters used on some services currently and will require an extensive platform lengthening program to be able to run doubled up. However, as some platforms can already take doubled up 185s a program of platform lengthening to allow 6 car operation on all-stops services would be more practical.
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Where would you send the 319s then?

No problem with finding new homes for the 319s if new EMUs are ordered for the North West.

Thames Valley will need new/cascaded EMUs, as will Valley Lines and the Leeds area will need additional EMUs for local services after North TPE electrification. Plus if passenger numbers continue to grow more EMUs will be needed even without more electrification.

As the North West can start using additional EMUs quickest it would make sense for new EMUs to go in that direction, opposed to running DMUs under new wires and getting brand new EMUs for another area. Doing that will also allow the 319s to be fully refurbished before being cascaded (as was originally intended.)

 

[sprinterguy]

Ideally what Northern need is a mixture of 3 car EMUs with 23m carriages and corridor connectors and some 4 car EMUs. The 4 car 319s will be equivalent capacity to the doubled up Sprinters used on some services currently and will require an extensive platform lengthening program to be able to run doubled up. However, as some platforms can already take doubled up 185s a program of platform lengthening to allow 6 car operation on all-stops services would be more practical.

A practical compromise using existing rolling stock would be for the 4-car 319s to take over, during the peak, duties otherwise worked by single 323s, allowing the 323s to operate in pairs during peak times.

 

[northwichcat]

A practical compromise using existing rolling stock would be for the 4-car 319s to take over, during the peak, duties otherwise worked by single 323s, allowing the 323s to operate in pairs during peak times.

I don't think that would work without using lots of paths for ECS moves.

The newly electrified Chat Moss and Bolton services will depart from Piccadilly platform 14 (or 15/16 when they are built) or Victoria some of them originating from the Airport or Stalybridge, while the South Manchester and Glossop EMUs will need to arrive at platforms 1-12 at Piccadilly.

 

[HSTEd]

Send the Class 319s/321s that are freed to London Midland and concentrate all the Class 323s with Northern.

LM have more use for 20m vehicles than Northern do with its fleet of trains based mostly only 23m vehicles.

 

[tbtc]

Hmm, nobody has suggested "just give Bombardier a blank cheque"? What's happened to this forum...

More realistically, I don't know what would be suitable for all of the routes being electrified in Northern terrory.

In Yorkshire, there won't be many local EMUs required for the CP5 electrification (Leeds - Selby and Leeds - Huddersfield) - assuming that any replacement for 185s on "express" duties is seperate from a "local" order.

Of the wires in/around Lancashire, I think that the Bolton line is the biggest candidate for capacity - maybe doubled up 323s would be an answer, allowing single four coach EMUs to run on existing routes like Crewe, Glossop and Stoke.

However we don't know the franchise boundaries (I doubt TPE will remain the same as now, but nothing is confirmed) which will probably be a big justification for any EMU order/ announcement.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Send the Class 319s/321s that are freed to London Midland and concentrate all the Class 323s with Northern.

LM have more use for 20m vehicles than Northern do with its fleet of trains based mostly only 23m vehicles.

I'm sure sprinterguy would castigate me were I not to bring up the fact that six coach 323s are ideal for rush hour Cross City services in Birmingham, and 319s wouldn't be able to match that (since there aren't 80m platforms)

 

[sprinterguy]

Of the wires in/around Lancashire, I think that the Bolton line is the biggest candidate for capacity - maybe doubled up 323s would be an answer, allowing single four coach EMUs to run on existing routes like Crewe, Glossop and Stoke.

If swapping 319s and 323s between routes at peak and off-peak times would be too complex due to the number of ECS moves required (Although there are plenty of ECS moves into London terminals to meet commuter demand at peak times, on routes where frequencies are very high), then simply allocating 323s to the Bolton corridor and 319s on the existing electrified routes certainly sounds sensible to me.

I'm sure sprinterguy would castigate me were I not to bring up the fact that six coach 323s are ideal for rush hour Cross City services in Birmingham, and 319s wouldn't be able to match that (since there aren't 80m platforms)

I didn't even need to bring it up myself. Although I will correct you slightly in saying that it is a shortage of platforms that are 160 metres in length (Rather than 80m - The length of one unit) that is the issue, which would not allow doubled up 319s to operate where they are presently long enough for a pair of 323s.
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LM have more use for 20m vehicles than Northern do with its fleet of trains based mostly only 23m vehicles.

Mostly? While there are lots of 156s operating in the North West (and a fair few 153s used for strengthening), large numbers of Pacers and 150s are dominant on many services, with vehicle lengths of 15.7 and 20 metres respectively.

 

[tbtc]

If swapping 319s and 323s between routes at peak and off-peak times would be too complex due to the number of ECS moves required (Although there are plenty of ECS moves into London terminals to meet commuter demand at peak times, on routes where frequencies are very high), then simply allocating 323s to the Bolton corridor and 319s on the existing electrified routes certainly sounds sensible to me

That's my current thinking.

It would give passengers on the Glossop/ Crewe/ Stoke lines an upgrade (to a four coach train with 2+2 seating) - under some suggestions the existing EMU lines around Manchester wouldn't see any benefit - and allow the Bolton corridor to have the peak capacity that it seems to need (six coach 323s).

Ideally I'd suggest that the six coach 323s could be used for portion working too, but that may complicate things.

I didn't even need to bring it up myself. Although I will correct you slightly in saying that it is a shortage of platforms that are 160 metres in length (Rather than 80m - The length of one unit) that is the issue, which would not allow doubled up 319s to operate where they are presently long enough for a pair of 323s.

Oops

2 x 4 x 20 = 160... yes, my mistake!

Other than that, the idea of sending all the 323s to the Manchester area would make sense, but that's quite a big "but".

 

[HSTEd]

I didn't even need to bring it up myself. Although I will correct you slightly in saying that it is a shortage of platforms that are 160 metres in length (Rather than 80m - The length of one unit) that is the issue, which would not allow doubled up 319s to operate where they are presently long enough for a pair of 323s.

Mostly? While there are lots of 156s operating in the North West (and a fair few 153s used for strengthening), large numbers of Pacers and 150s are dominant on many services, with vehicle lengths of 15.7 and 20 metres respectively.

As far as I know the vast majority of the London Midland EMU fleet has 20m carriage lengths, far more than the Northern Fleet, so I just thought it would be reasonable to assign the 20m length trains to LM and get all the 23m length EMUs in one place rather than having a mix in both places.

This way the resources neccesary to length the platforms from 138m (6x23m) to 160m to allow 8-carriage running of 20m vehicles could be concentrated in the LM area rather than having to be spread out which would make it impractical.

Also concentrating on 23m would get the most capacity out of Oxford Road without requiring an absurdly expensive rebuild that would likely cost more than all the platform lengthening work you would need to do to eliminate the 23m EMUs from London Midland.

Indeed, there are Pacers and Class 150s at Northern, but most of the constraining platforms, like those at Oxford Road, appear to be sized for 23m vehicles, so it makes sense to size trains around those platforms rather than ones on simple plain track that would be relatively cheap to lengthen.

 

[northwichcat]

If swapping 319s and 323s between routes at peak and off-peak times would be too complex due to the number of ECS moves required (Although there are plenty of ECS moves into London terminals to meet commuter demand at peak times, on routes where frequencies are very high), then simply allocating 323s to the Bolton corridor and 319s on the existing electrified routes certainly sounds sensible to me

That's my current thinking.

It would give passengers on the Glossop/ Crewe/ Stoke lines an upgrade (to a four coach train with 2+2 seating) - under some suggestions the existing EMU lines around Manchester wouldn't see any benefit - and allow the Bolton corridor to have the peak capacity that it seems to need (six coach 323s).

So would that include replacing 185s on Manchester Airport-Blackpool, which have 2+2 seating, tables and First Class with 323s that have 3+2 seating, no tables and no First Class?

The number of seats on the 317s with 2+2 seating is significantly less than on the 323s so I imagine it would be the same if the 319s are refitted with 2+2 seating.

With regards to ECS moves the paths around Manchester are pretty much full at peak times now and while there are plans for capacity enhancements, having a significant increase in ECS movements would reduce the benefits of them. The difference with Manchester is it's not as much of a terminus as the central London stations, so you want trains stopped at the limited number of through platforms in Manchester for a significant amount of time to allow coupling and uncoupling.

 

[G_A_C_C_C]

Build 25 new 4 car 378s.

Take one of the cars out and send it to the ELL to strengthen to 5 car. Send the "left" over 3 car units to Soho to replace the 323s and send them off to Northern along with the 7 the displaced LM 321s once the 350/3s arrive.

Or if LM want a single EMU type, tack on an order for 3 car 350s to the 350/3 order to replace the 323s

 

[tbtc]

So would that include replacing 185s on Manchester Airport-Blackpool, which have 2+2 seating, tables and First Class with 323s that have 3+2 seating, no tables and no First Class?

Since this is a thread specifically about Northern, and that service is run by TPE then no, that wasn't what I suggested.

As I said earlier in this thread, the EMU requirements may well change in light of any franchise boundary changes - I wouldn't put 323s on the faster TPE routes, but they would be suited to the capacity required on the stoppers currently run by Northern.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

the 7 the displaced LM 321s

These 321s would be quite suited to running the local Northern services around Leeds (i.e. the newly wired lines to Selby, York, Huddersfield) once CP6 electrification has been completed - I think the maths works fairly well, and they would be part of a larger fleet of 321/322s at Neville Hill.

 

[northwichcat]

Build 25 new 4 car 378s.

Take one of the cars out and send it to the ELL to strengthen to 5 car. Send the "left" over 3 car units to Soho to replace the 323s and send them off to Northern along with the 7 the displaced LM 321s once the 350/3s arrive.

Or if LM want a single EMU type, tack on an order for 3 car 350s to the 350/3 order to replace the 323s

The wording of the tender for the 350/3s said that the new EMUs must be compatible with existing LM EMUs, so that ruled out existing Bombardier designs.

LM have no plans to cascade the 321s at present even after the 350/3s arrive. (The 321s are compatible with 323s even though that would limit the speed to 90mph.)

Northern probably won't want extra 321s anyway as currently they are all Yorkshire based so until Manchester-Leeds electrification is complete so it would mean a micro fleet of 321s for the North West that's completely separate to the other small 32x fleet.