My idea for: Pendolinos for Norwich!

[Thumper Bill]

With the state of some of the stock on the London Livepool Street to Norwich line getting quite old I think that it would be a good idea to upgrade the line and order some Pendolinos for it as they would speed up timing and be so much nicer for the client base. Is there any one that knows wheater this could be a possibility?

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

I doubt that Pendos would ever go to Norwich. Besides, the 90s and Mk3s are fine IMHO. IEP may go to Norwich though as a possibility.

 

[sonic2009]

I would think a major upgrade of the line would be needed first this would possibly include signalling, track and overheads.

 

[ainsworth74]

As indicated above it's the infrastructure that's holding back speed not the rolling stock. You could deploy Eurostar's on the route* and the top speed would still be around 100-110mph. Until the infrastructure under goes significant enhancment you're not going to be getting much more speed on that route.

* Well you couldn't as I doubt the power supplies could stand up to it without significant enhancement.

 

[dosxuk]

The only thing the line could do with is to finally complete the OHLE renewals, look at removing some of the level crossings and increase speeds to 110 where possible, and do a full refurb of the MkIII stock, including fitment of Chiltern-style power doors.

Pendo's would be overkill and wasted.

 

[transmanche]

With the state of some of the stock on the London Livepool Street to Norwich line getting quite old I think that it would be a good idea to upgrade the line and order some Pendolinos for it as they would speed up timing and be so much nicer for the client base.

An AC version of the 444 would be more suitable for this line.

 

[D365]

If anything, a 110mph 344 Desiro (similar to the South West fleet) would be more suitable. Some other people have suggested Pendolinos, but 140mph tilting trains are not needed. A Chiltern-style Mk3 refurb, as has been said, will be fine, possibly with new locos?

 

[eastdyke]

I looked at the headline and thought that we had a new Italian striker at Carrow Road

 

[tec]

The Norwich line is too slow for the existing stock, so Pendolino's would be overkill.

Sort the track out first, or have a non-stop Norwich service.

 

[bronzeonion]

Hell NO to Pendos or Desiros, I agree with the people talking about a MK3 refurb. Still wont speed up journey times, its the infrastructure.

 

[Bald Rick]

*sighs* here we go again.

We ran pendolinos through the timing model. They save approx 3 mins on the current stopping pattern of the fastest off peak service.

We also ran a Pendolino through the model on the current stopping pattern with all 100 mph stretches raised to 125, and all 90 raised to 100. This saves another 5 mins, assuming the trains don't catch up the train in front. Which they will.

But raising line speed above 100mph means upgrading or closing almost every level crossing north of Chelmsford. And there's an awful lot of them. Also moving a lot of signals, retensioning or replacing almost all the OLE, and doing a lot of track, bridge and embankment work. Say very little change from £300m. For 5 mins.

Alternatively, don't stop the fast trains at Diss, which costs nothing.

 

[DarloRich]

With the state of some of the stock on the London Livepool Street to Norwich line getting quite old I think that it would be a good idea to upgrade the line and order some Pendolinos for it as they would speed up timing and be so much nicer for the client base. Is there any one that knows wheater this could be a possibility?

yes - this would be a fantastic idea. I mean i am sure they wont in any way destroy the OHLE or crash into any lineside structures or chuff the track. What say we start them tomorrow - it'll be right :roll:

What needs doing is a decent refurbishment of the MKIII stock as a stop gap until the MKIV and 91 sets become available when, sigh, thy are replaced on the East Coast by the Intercity Express trains .

As i think Baldrick suggests the modeling show little or no benefit in wholesale line speed improvements before you even think about clearing the route for bendy trains. Oh and there is no more money for it anyway this side of the next ice age.

 

[yorkie]

I have edited the thread title to conform to our Forum Rules, specifically:-

• New threads should be given appropriate, descriptive titles...
• If posting a personal suggestion for changes to rail provision, you should make this position clear in the thread title so readers are clear it is not based on the work or aspirations of any recognised body.

 

[Thumper Bill]

I have edited the thread title to conform to our Forum Rules, specifically:-

• New threads should be given appropriate, descriptive titles...
• If posting a personal suggestion for changes to rail provision, you should make this position clear in the thread title so readers are clear it is not based on the work or aspirations of any recognised body.

As a life long resident of Norwich, 72 years I would like to see faster journey times to London.
I understand that a line upgrade would be required which is why I included the words "upgrade the line" in the origanal post, learn to read man.
By the way, I am not called Thumper Bill because of an iffinity to Southern Railway diesel units, it is because I am called Bill and have big ears like the rabbit thing in Bambi (the film) ok?

 

[HSTEd]

Who wants to guess what I am about to suggest?

....
....


An East Anglia Shinkansen running out of Liverpool Street to Norwich, entirely in tunnels within London (probably no station at Stratford though).

You probably get better value for money considering the absurd cost escalation that occurs whenever major upgrade work is planned, and it allows the existing slow timetable to stay as it or even get better.

 

[jopsuk]

Do the Japanese run Shinkansen lines at 100 miles or so? I like the idea, I just wonder if other countries would build such a thing for a relatively short route.

If I was speccing a High Speed line for Norwich, I'd make use of the route I'd use for the East Coast one (via Cambridge) and branch towards Norwich after Cambridge.

 

[captainbigun]

This obsession with Norwich on the GE does baffle me a touch. Given infrastructure constraints, speeding the journey up can only really be achieved through less stops north of Colchester. You would have to remove the impediments BR mentions above as well the 60 through Chelsmford to improve things further.

The notion that the 91/mk4 sets are suitable for the GE is incorrect. These are 140mph intercity trains designed for running at high speed for long periods of time. They are not suited to shuffling along the GE, their performance would be worse than the existing fleet due to the high speed gearing.

Then we have to look at where the passengers and therefore revenue comes from on the GE. Chelsmford is the second busiest 2 platform station after City Thameslink. So that's part of the answer. Then there's Colchester and Shenfield, though the latter does receive other services. You would not impact the services which give you most income and sorry folks, that isn't Norwich.

Until such time as there is the cash to invest we're stuck with what we have. Maybe the IC fleet is replaced by units, maybe the mk3s are given a life extension along with new traction. Bear in mind that countrywide there are more important schemes that require the cash, not least major electrification works.

 

[Wivenswold]

Do the Japanese run Shinkansen lines at 100 miles or so? I like the idea, I just wonder if other countries would build such a thing for a relatively short route.

If I was speccing a High Speed line for Norwich, I'd make use of the route I'd use for the East Coast one (via Cambridge) and branch towards Norwich after Cambridge.

Totally agree. Given its proximity to London I think the whole Greater Anglia area needs a complete upgrade. Electrify and upgrade the Ipswich/Cambridge/Cambridge triangle so that more freight from Felixstowe and Harwich can avoid London (freeing up paths), Run an hourly Norwich/Cambridge/Stansted/LST service which would increase see a capacity increase that not only uses existing paths but would benefit passengers on the existing route. Then knock out some smaller stations on the existing LST - Norwich trains and put a stopping electric service on between Colchester and Norwich. Finally, replace the loco-hauled/pushed services with 6 car (and therefore some 6+6 consists) long-distance EMUs with 2+2 seating and a few units with a buffet car. I'd even introduce them on some express commuter trains from Clacton and Ipswich a la on the 309s back in the day.

I'd add the reinstatement of the Sudbury to Cambridge line to the wishlist but that really would be too expensive.

 

[Monty]

An AC version of the 444 would be more suitable for this line.

I couldn't agree more, the seating aside (which could always be changed if the powers that be deem it's that unsuitable). An AC '344' would be ideal for the GEML, with decent acceleration and a top speed of 100mph (110mph running could be a real possibility as with the 350s) they should keep to the timings with little trouble at all.

 

[miikey]

Its not the condition of the infrastructure that holds back the introduction of new rolling stock, its the clearance issues. Its very difficult to get new rolling stock introduced on a line. You need to survey every structure on that route and determine whether it will be safe to run the new rolling stock.
This is why, for example, some trains are only alowed to run on a route with their steps removed and at 10mph.

P.S, the Class 43 is in progress of being route cleared for GE.

 

[dosxuk]

Until such time as there is the cash to invest we're stuck with what we have. Maybe the IC fleet is replaced by units, maybe the mk3s are given a life extension along with new traction. Bear in mind that countrywide there are more important schemes that require the cash, not least major electrification works.

This is exactly one of the reasons why people keep wanting improvements on the GEML. It's not visibly had any serious investment since it was electrified, and, while it may not need it, the Government going on and on about how many billions they're spending on the rest of the country's rail infrastructure makes many people go "when is it our turn?".

And then you have the actual travelling experience, with the very worn out MkIIIs, what seems like continual OHLE failures, and delays being read out on nearly every Radio Norfolk travel bulletin gives the general public the impression of a very under-invested, unreliable and unusable railway.

 

[ainsworth74]

And then you have the actual travelling experience, with the very worn out MkIIIs, what seems like continual OHLE failures, and delays being read out on nearly every Radio Norfolk travel bulletin gives the general public the impression of a very under-invested, unreliable and unusable railway.

Well the issues with the Mk3s has more to do with NXEA than anyone else. And, unless I'm mistaken, isn't Network Rail in the middle of renewing the OHLE?

 

[dosxuk]

Well the issues with the Mk3s has more to do with NXEA than anyone else. And, unless I'm mistaken, isn't Network Rail in the middle of renewing the OHLE?

Which to the travelling public looks like a round of 'blame anyone but ourselves', while still putting up ticket prices and not investing any of it in the route.

It's more an issue of PR and marketing than an actual problem with the route, but people actively avoid using the line because it's seen as outdated and unreliable, regardless of who's to blame.

Hopefully once this interim franchise is over, and the OHLE work is completed, the new franchise holder can have a proper go at improving people's views of the line, and then the calls for Pendos and to turn it into a 140mph route will stop. Although I have a terrible feeling they'll just blame all the problems on the previous operators, clean the carpets and change some seat covers and say the trains have been refurbished.

 

[captainbigun]

Its not the condition of the infrastructure that holds back the introduction of new rolling stock, its the clearance issues. Its very difficult to get new rolling stock introduced on a line. You need to survey every structure on that route and determine whether it will be safe to run the new rolling stock.
This is why, for example, some trains are only alowed to run on a route with their steps removed and at 10mph.

P.S, the Class 43 is in progress of being route cleared for GE.

Gauge clearance is less of an issue now. You pay a company to asses your vehicle and they map that against a given route. It's only when you start having to change infrastructure that really hits cost.

As for HST, I'm pretty sure the NMT has visited the GE and HSTs have been to various Anglian destinations.

Don't expect to see HSTs cascaded for passenger use, it's simply not going to happen!

 

[HSTEd]

Do the Japanese run Shinkansen lines at 100 miles or so? I like the idea, I just wonder if other countries would build such a thing for a relatively short route.

Well there is a Shinkansen of approximately that length (infact shorter, the Nagano Shinkansen which is the first part of a long delayed project to build a longer one), and there were the long delayed plans to build one to the Narita Airport which have now been scrapped..

I do note that it would be of comparable length as HS2 Phase 1 and would probably require rather less tunnelling.
You might extend Crossrail and the residual inner suburban trains to Chelmsford and put the first stop there, and probably make extensive use of classic compatible trains so that everywhere off the Norwich-Ipswitch-Chelmsford-London corridor gets service over the new line, freeing huge amounts of capacity on the current line for freight.

A line of this length would likely have 4-5 Intermediate stations based upon the standards set by the Tōkaidō Shinkansen.

If I was speccing a High Speed line for Norwich, I'd make use of the route I'd use for the East Coast one (via Cambridge) and branch towards Norwich after Cambridge.

Problem with Cambridge is that you then end up with a line that doesn't really relieve the existing lines and just shunts yet more trains into existing termini that might not be able to cope practically.

It also cuts down on your feasible stopping patterns in the name of improving capacity on the "core" section.
Shinkansen philosophy is almost the polar opposite of the HS2 Philosophy.

 

[miikey]

Gauge clearance is all done in house. Its Network Rails job to assess gauge clearance for existing and any proposed vehicles to use the route.
The class 43 is not cleared on GE, at least on the LTN (London to Norwich), because I was the guy trying to get it route cleared. Massive undertaking, probably will never happen. lol

 

[dosxuk]

Gauge clearance is all done in house. Its Network Rails job to assess gauge clearance for existing and any proposed vehicles to use the route.
The class 43 is not cleared on GE, at least on the LTN (London to Norwich), because I was the guy trying to get it route cleared. Massive undertaking, probably will never happen. lol

How did this happen then?

 

[captainbigun]

Are you sure NR don't out source? Also under ROGS I'm not sure that NR have to gauge clear, but I'd need to check. Surely compatibility is NoBo territory.

 

[ryan125hst]

Well there is a Shinkansen of approximately that length (infact shorter, the Nagano Shinkansen which is the first part of a long delayed project to build a longer one), and there were the long delayed plans to build one to the Narita Airport which have now been scrapped..

I do note that it would be of comparable length as HS2 Phase 1 and would probably require rather less tunnelling.
You might extend Crossrail and the residual inner suburban trains to Chelmsford and put the first stop there, and probably make extensive use of classic compatible trains so that everywhere off the Norwich-Ipswitch-Chelmsford-London corridor gets service over the new line, freeing huge amounts of capacity on the current line for freight.

A line of this length would likely have 4-5 Intermediate stations based upon the standards set by the Tōkaidō Shinkansen.

It's not the length of the Shinkansen that would be the problem, it's the width. Correct me if I am wrong, but I'm sure they are wider than our rolling stock (as are most other foreign trains as we have a very small loading gauge). They still run on standard gauge track however.

 

[Class86Fan]

I think an AC version of the Class 444 is quite suitable, but the Mk3 sets are still good.