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Breckland Line Resignalling 2012

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dk1

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Many distants change to green but then revert to yellow, this is not affecting stop signals so just ignored it & got hold of train if unable to see next signal incase red.

The black signal in question is in the position of Lakenheaths old IBH on the up road. I was stopped at it & told that when cleared it will show green for a few seconds then go blank & to disreguard it once given permission to proceed.
 
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johnnyp_360

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This may sound like a silly question as I don't fully understand signalling. But why would NR spend heavily on new light signals (on any line) these days with the more modern tech ERTMS which if I have read correctly, removes the need for lineside signals all together?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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This may sound like a silly question as I don't fully understand signalling. But why would NR spend heavily on new light signals (on any line) these days with the more modern tech ERTMS which if I have read correctly, removes the need for lineside signals all together?

This is one of two trials of "modular" (ie cheap) signalling intended for lightly used lines.
The other is Crewe-Shrewsbury, also in progress and also delayed (different supplier).
ERTMS/ETCS is the long-term solution but is not cheap, and still at the "pilot" stage in the UK (Cambrian).
 

Railsigns

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This may sound like a silly question as I don't fully understand signalling. But why would NR spend heavily on new light signals (on any line) these days with the more modern tech ERTMS which if I have read correctly, removes the need for lineside signals all together?

There's no point implementing ERTMS cab signalling on other lines until there are ERTMS-fitted trains that can run on them.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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So how does this 'modular' system that is being installed differ from ordinary colour-light signals?

I'm not sure about that as I haven't seen a full description.
Might be no different from the driver's point of view, but the equipment is standardised rather than bespoke for each location.
The signal posts are I think plastic and hinged so no ladders are needed for access.
SSL are doing the Breckland line, Invensys are doing Crewe-Shrewsbury.
 

dk1

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So how does this 'modular' system that is being installed differ from ordinary colour-light signals?

They dont work properly :lol:

No seriously, to a driver they make no difference. you are looking for a signal aspect at a similar height & with same types of route indication. To S&T they need very little maintainence & can be lowered in a similar way to a lamp post.
 

swt_passenger

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No seriously, to a driver they make no difference. you are looking for a signal aspect at a similar height & with same types of route indication. To S&T they need very little maintainence & can be lowered in a similar way to a lamp post.

I don't think that is necessarily what defines it as being 'modular signalling' though? That is 'lightweight signalling' and it has been used to reduce the costs of the signal post hardware installation, it was used on the Salisbury to Exeter resignalling as well, but that isn't considered a modular installation is it?

I believe that modular in this context is more to do with the standardised off the shelf nature of the overall interlocking - which happens to control lightweight signalling as well.
 

TheBigD

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They dont work properly

Indeed. Another SPAD yesterday as a result of a change of aspect. There's been quite a few change of aspect incidents since Monday, sadly.
 

Metroland

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Modular signalling is just a standardised set of interlockings and equipment designed for secondary routes that do not require bespoke layouts. Most of it is pre-wired in the factory and taken to site and almost literally 'plugged in'.
 

John55

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I don't think that is necessarily what defines it as being 'modular signalling' though? That is 'lightweight signalling' and it has been used to reduce the costs of the signal post hardware installation, it was used on the Salisbury to Exeter resignalling as well, but that isn't considered a modular installation is it?

I believe that modular in this context is more to do with the standardised off the shelf nature of the overall interlocking - which happens to control lightweight signalling as well.

There was an article in Modern Railways about it a few years ago. The key idea is that it isn't so much modular signalling it is a modular railway to quote Roger Ford. If you make the railway so it only has a small number of standard configurations (including track layout) you only need a small number of standard interlockings and other bits of kit.

If you go back to the 1900s the Midland or the GWR or the LNWR would build a new line with half a dozen signal boxes and could send out kits for 2 x type 4 and 4 x type 3 signal boxes and 2 x 24 lever frames and 4 x 16 lever frames with appropriate interlockings. As everything was pretty much the same it was cheap and easy to build and commission. The big signalling companies (RSC, Saxby etc) could do the same thing as well.

Things are rather different now but it is the general idea and NR is trying to get back to that sort standardisation. The advantage in the old days was if someone cocked up the design or installation (and it certainly happened) no one said anything about it and it got fixed without publicity on internet forums!
 

oliMw

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Did a few trips yesterday, boxes still standing and no sign of the bulldozers yet!

I remember someone saying that the North Norfolk Railway were looking at getting one of the decommissioned signal boxes for somewhere on the nnr line, I can't remember where though.
 
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I remember someone saying that the North Norfolk Railway were looking at getting one of the decommissioned signal boxes for somewhere on the nnr line, I can't remember where though.

Hasn't the NNR already got a few boxes already in kit format, is that the right term to use for boxes they have that are still in bits,

Does anyone know which ones that are looking at, also can anyone confirm the future of Brandon box, keep hearing different messages about it
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm not sure about that as I haven't seen a full description.
Might be no different from the driver's point of view, but the equipment is standardised rather than bespoke for each location.
The signal posts are I think plastic and hinged so no ladders are needed for access.
SSL are doing the Breckland line, Invensys are doing Crewe-Shrewsbury.

Basically what I understand from it is that NR are trying to create a countrywide system that is operated by the least amount of boxes, an example of this is that East Anglia will have only one signal box that controls every signal and track for the whole region, these will be operated by switches rather than levers and will create a cost saving by the need to employ signal men, hence the word modular, also note new crossings that are operated by sensor too

The small boxes will go first like those on the Breckland line to be controlled by Cambridge once that is done the power boxes will start to go as well, last I heard was a new centre in Romford is in the pipeline

I do stand to be corrected on this but I believe I am 99% correct

To back this up NR have been busy in the Midlands already with a new centre in Derby if not open already soon will be, I am sure a search online will give a better picture
 

DaveHarries

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I remember someone saying that the North Norfolk Railway were looking at getting one of the decommissioned signal boxes for somewhere on the nnr line, I can't remember where though.
I believe the NNR are interested in Wymondham South Junction. I think it is their line which leads off at the southern end of Wymondham station but WSJ box isn't closing for a while yet.

I gather that Attleborough SB has a preservation order on it to include all its interior. It will be interesting to see what use is made for the box. Public exhibit?

It was rumoured that an NR manager wanted Spooner Row SB for his garden once it gets decommissioned. However if this is so he may not get it: when I was photographing the signalboxes on the line over the weekend of 11th / 12th August I had a chat with one of the duty signalmen at Eccles Road who said he understood that Spooner Row may be moved elsewhere for use as a gate box. He gave me the location but I can't remember where it was.

Note: if anyone gets the chance the box at Eccles Road is well worth a last visit. The signalman I spoke to when I was there has been spruicing the box up a treat. The exterior has had a full repaint into green & cream and looks splendid. In addition the box nameplate (on the road site) has been replaced with a traditional black & white old-style nameplate. The box looks fantastic: if you get the chance for a final visit then my advice is take that chance!

HTIOI,
Dave
 

w0033944

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Mid Norfolk has already got the box and its staying put

Yes, but DaveHarries was saying that the NNR wanted Wymondham South Junction box as their line comes off the Breckland line there. Thing is, it's the Mid-Norfolk Railway that is accessed via Wymondham South Junction - the North Norfolk Railway is about 25 miles away!
 

swt_passenger

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Basically what I understand from it is that NR are trying to create a countrywide system that is operated by the least amount of boxes, an example of this is that East Anglia will have only one signal box that controls every signal and track for the whole region, these will be operated by switches rather than levers and will create a cost saving by the need to employ signal men, hence the word modular, also note new crossings that are operated by sensor too

Modular signalling only refers to the modular nature of the local interlocking and local hardware, as mentioned earlier in John55's reply to me in post #42. It will only be seen on relatively simple layouts, such as a straightforward two track rural railway. No-one has suggested that modular signalling is the solution to every resignalling project, they aren't likely to use it for the Waterloo area for instance. :D

The move to Regional Operations Centres, (ROCs) is a parallel process of consolidation of all the different operating panels in a region (or NR route) into massive buildings, basically one for each region. However that is a separate development, clearly some simple route resignalling using modular equipment will ultimately be re-controlled into a region's ROC, but you can do that without modular hardware. As I mentioned earlier, the Exeter - Salsibury resignalling is not considered modular, but it does use lightweight signals. It wouldn't be resignalled again just to move control into Basingstoke ROC from Basingstoke New, (which will apparently only have a life expectancy in single figures as it happens).

In summary then it seems that modular signalling can happen any time, but it is not actually a pre-requisite of recontrol into an ROC. All the existing panel type boxes will just get re-controlled remotely.
 

eastdyke

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Oh dear! From NRE:

A signalling problem is causing disruption at Brandon. Buses replace trains between Ely and Norwich, delays of up to 60 minutes. Staff are on site at a number of locations investigating the signalling fault.

Not really gone that well has it?
 
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Oh dear! From NRE:

A signalling problem is causing disruption at Brandon. Buses replace trains between Ely and Norwich, delays of up to 60 minutes. Staff are on site at a number of locations investigating the signalling fault.

Not really gone that well has it?

How long would it take for NR to change everything back to how it was once or if this project fails
 

GB

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No need to go that far. Once the kinks are all ironed out it should all work to spec.
 

GB

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Do we know what has failed? Its a bit early to be saying it wasn't installed properly isn't it?

I agree things should work from the get go, but as with all things of this nature, problems do arise when out in the field and gone live.
 

eastdyke

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As a matter of extreme interest what was the driver for the resignalling to have been specified for max 75mph running?

Was it a Fenland (ie west of Brandon) PW issues?

If not a teensy bit short sighted?

Thanks
 

TheBigD

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As a matter of extreme interest what was the driver for the resignalling to have been specified for max 75mph running?

Was it a Fenland (ie west of Brandon) PW issues?

If not a teensy bit short sighted?

Thanks

The resignalling is good for 100mph though there's currently no 100mph running. There's plenty of 80-90mph running on the line east of Lakenheath.
 
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