Any Future For Passgengers On The " Brigg" Line

[sheff'd victoria]

Why?

The existing line from Grimsby to Lincoln isn't exactly busy - what benefit would there be for such an expensive chord?

Then you could have a Lincoln - Gainsborough Lea Road - Gainsborough Central - Brigg - Cleethorpes service

 

[Tomnick]

Sounds like a huge investment for a next-to-useless service to me.

 

[tbtc]

It would be a good idea for Network Rail to build a curve from Gainsborough Lea Road - Gainsborough Central

Why?

The existing line from Grimsby to Lincoln isn't exactly busy - what benefit would there be for such an expensive chord?

Then you could have a Lincoln - Gainsborough Lea Road - Gainsborough Central - Brigg - Cleethorpes service

But why? There's plenty of spare capacity on the existing line between Cleethorpes and Lincoln.

Much better to concentrate resources on that route (and Lincoln - Gainsborough - Sheffield etc) than to start building expensive new chords.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

A new chord in Gainsborough would also allow you to close Gainsborough Lea Road and have Lincoln-Doncaster/Retford trains to call and reverse at Gainsborough Central instead. Would add a few minutes to the journey time but allow them to stop at a much more convenient station in Gainsborough.

Also, what would the market be like for a Lincoln-Gainsborough-Brigg-Scunthorpe service, if you also built a chord east of Brigg to allow trains to do that?

 

[Donny Dave]

Also, what would the market be like for a Lincoln-Gainsborough-Brigg-Scunthorpe service, if you also built a chord east of Brigg to allow trains to do that?

Potentially very good! The A15, A18 and the A159 can be a nightmare with traffic between Scunthorpe and the surrounding towns and cities. Perhaps it could even be a circular service. IE Sheffield - Lincoln - Brigg - Scunthorpe - Sheffield. However ....

As I mentioned in my previous post, I think the station is in the wrong place in Brigg. But it will not be financially worthwhile to build a new alignment from the level crossing on the B1206 to near the Scawby Brook roundabout (where the A18 enters Brigg) and rejoining the present line at or near Brigg station.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Here is a speech made by the RT HON Martin Vickers MP For Cleethorpes In December 2011

Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): On the face of it, my constituency might seem well served by transport as it has an international airport, the largest dock complex in the country and 10 railway stations, including one that serves two farms and an ancient ruin, and was used by 13 passengers in 2010. But the road network needs a little improvement. The main road into the constituency is the A180, but the A160 off to Immingham dock—which, as I said, is the largest dock complex in the country—is in urgent need of an upgrade.
The last message I had from the Department for Transport said that the upgrade was included in 12 future schemes that should receive development funds, and that a decision would be taken by the end of the year. So time is running out and this is my last opportunity to lobby Ministers about the importance of the A160. Not only does it serve the existing Immingham dock, but it will serve one of the two new enterprise zones in the area, so it is clearly of vital importance.
I welcome the Government’s recent decisions to grant those enterprise zones that status, and we also gained from the announcement that the Immingham bypass would at long last go ahead, as well as the halving of the Humber bridge tolls. May I also draw Ministers’ attention to the urgent need for a direct rail service from the constituency to London? About a year ago I met Alliance Rail, which is keen to do this, and it told me that its plans were still in the system. But the byzantine procedures that they have to go through for the opportunity to run a rail service are complex beyond belief. If we are to go ahead with High Speed 2 and develop our rail network, we must put together a system that reaches decisions rather more quickly. If the Victorians had been locked into the present system, our trains would still be pulled by Stephenson’s Rocket, and the network would not have expanded as it did. There is no incentive for rail companies to provide extra services.
That is typified by the service that runs on Saturdays only from Cleethorpes to Brigg, Kirton in Lindsey and Gainsborough, and then on to Sheffield. We have a good service to Sheffield via Doncaster, but I am eager for people from Gainsborough—I can see my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) in his place—to be able to use that service to take their families for a day out in Cleethorpes, where they can enjoy Pleasure Island and see the attractions that the “Cleethorpes in bloom” committee has organised.

Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): And the other way round.

Martin Vickers: I thank my hon. Friend.

 

[johnnychips]

On the face of it, my constituency might seem well served by transport as it has an international airport, the largest dock complex in the country and 10 railway stations, including one that serves two farms and an ancient ruin, and was used by 13 passengers in 2010.

No wonder they won't increase the service!

 

[SprinterMan]

No wonder they won't increase the service!

Which station was he referring to?

Adam

 

[Donny Dave]

Thornton Abbey Station

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Here is a speech made by the RT HON Martin Vickers MP For Cleethorpes In December 2011

Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): On the face of it, my constituency might seem well served by transport as it has an international airport, the largest dock complex in the country and 10 railway stations, including one that serves two farms and an ancient ruin, and was used by 13 passengers in 2010. But the road network needs a little improvement. The main road into the constituency is the A180, but the A160 off to Immingham dock—which, as I said, is the largest dock complex in the country—is in urgent need of an upgrade.

I suppose it's too much to ask a Tory MP to unreservedly support improving railways, even in an area with such poor services as Cleethorpes Instead we get a call for more roads (in other words, more car journeys, more pollution and more congestion), with comments about the need for better train services and a direct service to London tacked on as an afterthought. Does the Tory party never learn that in the long run, building/improving roads almost always increases rather than reduces congestion?) And then he can't resist a dig at underused stations (if there really is a station that only served 13 passengers in 2010 then that certainly sounds like a station that's ripe for closure. But that's hardly relevant next to the issue of the sparsity of rail services in Lincolnshire in the places where people do actually live.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thornton Abbey Station

According to wikipedia, Thornton Abbey had 1,196 passengers in 2010-11. That's still extraordinarily low (just over 3 a day) but certainly not the 13 from the quoted speech (and the trend is upwards).

 

[Donny Dave]

Right, where do I start?

I suppose it's too much to ask a Tory MP to unreservedly support improving railways, even in an area with such poor services as Cleethorpes

I'm assuming your ignoring the fact that the railways benefit more from Conservative governments compared to Labour governments ....

Instead we get a call for more roads (in other words, more car journeys, more pollution and more congestion), with comments about the need for better train services and a direct service to London tacked on as an afterthought.

But the A160 where it leaves the A180 is in need of a serious upgrade though. Personally, I would go 1 further and make the A180 a 3 lane motorway from there to where it becomes the M180 (about 5 miles), as that section is full of lorries during the day. In this case, it would not cause more congestion, but instead relieve it

if there really is a station that only served 13 passengers in 2010 then that certainly sounds like a station that's ripe for closure. But that's hardly relevant next to the issue of the sparsity of rail services in Lincolnshire in the places where people do actually live.

Part of the problem there is that the line is in the wrong place, but that isn't an cheap or easy fix. So in order to improve things, the road from Thornton Abbey station to Thornton Curtis needs improving with street lights and a path so it makes it a lot safer for residents to make the trek to the station.

According to wikipedia, Thornton Abbey had 1,196 passengers in 2010-11. That's still extraordinarily low (just over 3 a day) but certainly not the 13 from the quoted speech (and the trend is upwards).

If you care to study a map of the area, you'll find that Thornton Abbey station does serve some ruins and a couple of farms, so is the station described. The nearest village is Thornton Curtis which is about 2 miles away.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Right, where do I start?
I'm assuming your ignoring the fact that the railways benefit more from Conservative governments compared to Labour governments ....

Railways have benefitted and lost out for various reasons under both parties, which is a whole separate debate. I think it'd be hard to measure who has done best for the railways (after all the privatization debacle was a Conservative idea). But it seems to me that the much of the Conservative party still has an ideologically-driven desire to encourage driving as the main form of transport (luckily David Cameron himself doesn't seem to share that); something that on the whole the Labour Party realised was a bad idea decades ago (though their record between 1997-2010 sadly didn't match their ideals).

But the A160 where it leaves the A180 is in need of a serious upgrade though. Personally, I would go 1 further and make the A180 a 3 lane motorway from there to where it becomes the M180 (about 5 miles), as that section is full of lorries during the day. In this case, it would not cause more congestion, but instead relieve it

Building/improving road will tend initially to reduce congestion on the road that you're improving, and on any roads that it is by-passing. However, it's been seen time and time again that it will also tempt more traffic in - that will partly come from new journeys (which to some extent may be a good thing if it's giving people more freedom) but if there are any competing railways or bus routes, it's also likely to come from tempting people away from trains/buses into cars. (And there would be a parallel affect where lorries/railfreight is concerned). That will have the almost immediate effect of adding to congestion on all the roads that feed into the road you're improving, and experience seems to show that that usually the higher traffic levels eventually overwhelm even improved road itself, more than offsetting the improvements you've made to it. I will concede that there are going to be special cases where because of some special local circumstances some roads should be improved (I don't know enough to tell if this is such a case), but in general, improving roads looks like a tempting easy fix for traffic but almost invariably does more harm than good in the long run - especially if you're *only* improving the roads without making parallel improvements in public transport etc.

Because of that, I'm inclined to stand by my assertion.

If you care to study a map of the area, you'll find that Thornton Abbey station does serve some ruins and a couple of farms, so is the station described. The nearest village is Thornton Curtis which is about 2 miles away.

I didn't dispute that. I was specifically questioning the '13 passengers per year' figure.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

I just check on National Rail for fares from Lincoln to Brigg on Saturdays.

The most sensible journey is via Barnetby - which if going one way would require a £7.70 off-peak single and a £2.90 anytime day single. Instead of suggesting this combination of tickets, it suggests purchasing an East Midlands Flexirover priced at £75.30. Really encouraging usage there!

The " Cheap " day return tickets for places like Gainsborough Central, Kirton Lindsay & Brigg have now been updated by National Rail and they should show the normal prices now.

It is rather stupid that the Sheffield Midland - Cleethorpes via Doncaster service is a lot cheaper in price than the Sheffield Midland - Cleethorpes via Gainsborough Central & Brigg service, with the latter sometimes having a class 142 " Cattle Truck " railbus as is form of transport on this line

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Had a e-mail from the nice people at Brigg Town Council who say the following

" Brigg Town Council has always supported the increase in passenger rail services through the Town, and was instrumental in preventing the complete closure of the service which was the original intention when the cuts were first instigated many years ago.

Since then the campaign has gone through peaks and troughs, and usually regains momentum when the passenger franchise is due for re-tendering."

"The Town Council is very much aware that one of the issues which has ' supposedly' prevented improvements to passenger rail services is the cost of track maintenance and, in view of the fact that there is a pre-application process currently underway relating to the construction of a new biomass power station at Scawby Brook, which includes plans to bring the raw material in by rail. Subject to its approval, there may the opportunity to re-open the campaign for improvements to the passenger rail service alongside, and this is something which has already been mentioned by the Town Council; although it has to be accepted that these applications can taken months/years to reach fruition."