Any Future For Passgengers On The " Brigg" Line

[sheff'd victoria]

For anyone who does not know, we are now coming upto 20 years since the " Brigg Line " ( Sheffield Midland - Gainsborough Central - Brigg - Cleethorpes ) lost its Monday to Friday service.

This now leaves the line with a Saturday only service of 3 trains to/from Sheffield Midland to Cleethorpes.

As many will know Lincolnshire is bad at the best of times for rail travel

Northern Rail dont seem to be bothered in doing a business plan for the line, Network Rail have told Lincolnshire County Council it is a freight line only

There has been talk of trying to get the Worksop-Cleethorpes section under the hands on East Midland Trains and running it as part of the Robin Hood Line.

Has anyone every travelled on this line and what do people think could be the future, someone did say once that at curve from Gainsborough Central to Gainsborough Lea Road could open the way to a Lincoln - Cleethorpes via Brigg service ?

 

[brompton rail]

Cleethorpes -Sheffield via Brigg doesn't really serve a viable market. Passengers doing the through journey have an hourly service via Doncaster.

Brigg, at one time, had a half hourly express bus service to Hull, Grimsby, Scunthorpe, Doncaster, Meadowhall and Sheffield. Stagecoach 909. However passenger numbers did not stay at the level required to maintain the service and it hasn't run for a number of years now. My experience was that few passengers boarded or alighted at Brigg anyway.

Therefore the only future for te railway line is probably withdrawal of the passenger trains, though it is probably cheaper to continue running the Saturday trains than go through the closure process.

 

[ainsworth74]

I would also question if there would even be a market if you were to increase the service provision. Brigg is sat almost on the M180 which gives it good links both west and east, I'm not sure the rail service would tempt many people out of their cars.

 

[MarkyT]

For anyone who does not know, we are now coming upto 20 years since the " Brigg Line " ( Sheffield Midland - Gainsborough Central - Brigg - Cleethorpes ) lost its Monday to Friday service.

This now leaves the line with a Saturday only service of 3 trains to/from Sheffield Midland to Cleethorpes.

As many will know Lincolnshire is bad at the best of times for rail travel

Northern Rail dont seem to be bothered in doing a business plan for the line, Network Rail have told Lincolnshire County Council it is a freight line only

There has been talk of trying to get the Worksop-Cleethorpes section under the hands on East Midland Trains and running it as part of the Robin Hood Line.

Has anyone every travelled on this line and what do people think could be the future, someone did say once that at curve from Gainsborough Central to Gainsborough Lea Road could open the way to a Lincoln - Cleethorpes via Brigg service ?

Here's an idea I came up with :

http://www.townend.me/files/gainsborough.pdf

As well as the passenger service changes shown, this could allow freight between the Immingham area and the Lincoln line and south thereof to run direct avoiding Doncaster. Probably a lot more realistic than a a short low speed curve between the 2 lines closer to Gainsborough.

 

[tbtc]

The only chance this line has of seeing improvements would be if the current Sheffield - Grimsby - Cleethorpes service were to be cut (either due to part of the line being electrified, or because of a will to restrict DMUs crossing the ECML at Doncaster to create more paths for longer distance trains), in which case this alternative route from Sheffield to Grimsby and Cleethorpes would have a future.

Other than that... there's not really much hope for improved services, sorry.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Another barrier to people using the current service is the lack of through fares to/from Brigg and Kirton Lindsey. You can't buy a ticket from Brigg to Lincoln, Market Rasen and quite a few stations in South Yorkshire.

www.fixmytransport.com/problems/3635

 

[SqUaShIe P]

Ive used the Saturday service along the line a few time and its quite handy if you can plan your day around the train times. Gainsborough Central Station is in a much better place than Gainsborough Lea Road. I think if Central had a regular Monday - Friday service, over time, a lot more people to use it.
As for the Saturday service Between Sheffield and Cleethorpes via Gainsborough Central and Brigg, During summer time, Ive been on that train and not managed to get a seat from Gainsborough going towards Cleethorpes. Outside of summer time, The most people i have seen on the train is 5.
I was thinking before that EMT should extend the robin hood line service to Barton On Humber via Brigg and Reversing at Cleethorpes. That way TPE wouldnt have to run Northerns service on the Barton Branch.

 

[Failed Unit]

I suspect any business case will only consider the passengers at Brigg and Kirton Lindsey.

Lets say the line had a bi-hourly service with a good connection at Retford for London. Some passengers may choose the route to get between the East and London / Sheffield I don't think the extra time would be signifcantly longer than via Doncaster. However this won't alter the overall numbers just increase Northern's ORCAT share.

Likewise Gainsborough, people may prefer to use Gainsborough Central but it would be argued that Lea Road offers Gainsborough a service (in reality you can't really travel into one and out of the other as the distance between them on foot is a reasonable walk)

Nottingham and Mansfield are interesting as although you can travel via Lincoln now, I suspect that for Mansfield the journey time reduction will be enough to justify extra journeys, I just can't see that many.

Worksop / Retford - the east? Not sure.

I just can't see a TOC taking the risk wish is a pity without Lincs County Council subsidy.

 

[flymo]

Completely for my own interest and as I had a couple of old timetables out, I had a look back to the days of yore, well '75 and '85.

In 75 there were 5 services a day each way along the line Mon - Sat including the 02:00 Manchester - Cleethorpes train calling at Brigg at around 05:00 to set down only. Sunday had 4 services eastbound including the Manchester - Cleethorpes early and 3 west.

Fast forward to '85 and there were 3 services a day each way Mon-Sat and a bizarre summer Sundays service to/ from Sheffield which was pick up only at Brigg going to Cleethorpes and set down only from Cleethorpes. Only good for a day at the seaside....

 

[Tomnick]

I was thinking before that EMT should extend the robin hood line service to Barton On Humber via Brigg and Reversing at Cleethorpes. That way TPE wouldnt have to run Northerns service on the Barton Branch.

No - but they'd probably end up running EMT's services instead! I doubt it'd be practical to resource the Barton shuttle with traincrew coming in from Nottingham, and you'd still have the early and late services to sort out. I don't think there'd be any benefit to changing the current arrangement where one unit works the branch all day (apart from the first one) either.

 

[trivran]

Another barrier to people using the current service is the lack of through fares to/from Brigg and Kirton Lindsey. You can't buy a ticket from Brigg to Lincoln, Market Rasen and quite a few stations in South Yorkshire.

www.fixmytransport.com/problems/3635

But there are through fares from London...right.

 

[trentside]

Another barrier to people using the current service is the lack of through fares to/from Brigg and Kirton Lindsey. You can't buy a ticket from Brigg to Lincoln, Market Rasen and quite a few stations in South Yorkshire.

I just check on National Rail for fares from Lincoln to Brigg on Saturdays.

The most sensible journey is via Barnetby - which if going one way would require a £7.70 off-peak single and a £2.90 anytime day single. Instead of suggesting this combination of tickets, it suggests purchasing an East Midlands Flexirover priced at £75.30. Really encouraging usage there!

 

[ashworth]

Being realistic I don't think that there is any chance of any improvement in services along this route.

However, some of the suggestions above about extending some Robin Hood Line services along this route are interesting.
A couple of trains a day each way during the summer may be worth thinking about. With reasonable Day Return fares there could be quite a market for day trips to Cleethorpes from Mansfield and other stations on the Robin Hood Line. Also if the current Saturday services are well used during the summer months Cleethorpes may also be a popular destination during the week from Worksop, Retford and Gainsborough making a daily Nottingham-Mansfield-Worksop-Cleethorpes service quite viable during the summer.

Although probably far less viable, perhaps also people from Retford and Gainsborough might find a daily Nottingham return service useful for leisure and shopping purposes.
Retford is in Nottinghamshire but currently travel to and from Nottingham is not easy.

As I've pointed out before in other threads, I do feel that there are lost opportunities for northwards travel from the Mansfield area on the Robin Hood Line with all services terminating at Worksop with very poor onward connections. Ideally, of course, there needs to be through trains from Mansfield to Sheffield or at least better connections at Worksop. The intermediate stations between Mansfield and Worksop are also all very underused whereas a service to Sheffield could generate lots of extra business. Who wants to alight on a cold draughty platform at Worksop with almost 45 minutes to wait for the Sheffield connection?

Really being adventurous perhaps Robin Hood Line trains could run beyond Worksop alternatley to Sheffield and Cleethorpes creating a 2 hourly service to both destinations.

 

[tbtc]

A direct link from Mansfield (etc) to Sheffield and Meadowhall would be much busier than linking Brigg etc.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

No - but they'd probably end up running EMT's services instead! I doubt it'd be practical to resource the Barton shuttle with traincrew coming in from Nottingham, and you'd still have the early and late services to sort out. I don't think there'd be any benefit to changing the current arrangement where one unit works the branch all day (apart from the first one) either.

The Barton line is been looked at as plan B , the service would run Gainsborough Central - Brigg - Barton Upon Humber - Grimsby - Cleethorpes

Plan A still seems to be saying bye bye to Northern and have EMT run the Nottingham - Worksop ( Robin Hood Line ) onto Gainsborough Central and Cleethorpes with a 2hrly service

 

[Tomnick]

Is that a serious proposal?? It'd destroy any prospect of a useful service eastwards from Brigg, and not really do much for the Barton line either.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Is that a serious proposal?? It'd destroy any prospect of a useful service eastwards from Brigg, and not really do much for the Barton line either.

This is an e-mail I got from a chap called Anthony Berridge who is part of the Barton Line rail users group, he said about the " Brigg " line

"It would also be better if the service started from Cleethorpes rather than Sheffield Midland as there is more demand for the city than the seaside.
It would certainly be good to have Northern Duo and CDR fares available on the Brigg line, and there really is no excuse for not doing so. When pressed Northern Rail have told us that it is not worth the trouble to arrange. I am amazed that a CDR from Rotherham to Brigg comes up at £75 return; perhaps it includes a three-course meal in the restaurant car! That is (or was recently) the normal return fare on Eurostar from St Pancras to Brussels.
FBL has pressed in the past (and will do so again when pressure from other avenues subside) for a Barton - Sheffield Midland service via the Brigg line (direct via the Ulceby-Brocklesby curve, at least on Saturdays), but, of course, so far without success.
A few years ago the Liberal MP for Gainsborough organised a high profile conference at Brigg to try to improve the lot of the Brigg line with (some) knowledgeable speakers and good coverage in the Scunthorpe Telegraph"

 

[Lad Brookes]

A few years ago?

Gainsborough hasn't had a Liberal MP since 1924!

 

[telstarbox]

Here's an idea I came up with :

http://www.townend.me/files/gainsborough.pdf

As well as the passenger service changes shown, this could allow freight between the Immingham area and the Lincoln line and south thereof to run direct avoiding Doncaster. Probably a lot more realistic than a a short low speed curve between the 2 lines closer to Gainsborough.

Have you had any response from Network Rail/Northern about this Mark? Although not an infrastructure expert, putting in two curves and 7-8km of reinstated track across a flat area of open country doesn't sound too onerous. It's certainly easier than something like reopening the line between Matlock-Buxton.

A quick look on Google Maps satellite imagery suggests that there hasn't been significant development on the old track bed, which is often a reason why lines can't be reinstated.

 

[Tomnick]

"It would also be better if the service started from Cleethorpes rather than Sheffield Midland as there is more demand for the city than the seaside.

If we're looking at any sort of meaningful service, then I'd imagine there'd have to be either another unit stabled at Cleethorpes overnight, or additional ECS moves to/from Doncaster.

FBL has pressed in the past (and will do so again when pressure from other avenues subside) for a Barton - Sheffield Midland service via the Brigg line (direct via the Ulceby-Brocklesby curve, at least on Saturdays), but, of course, so far without success.

I really don't understand this one. If the resources are available, surely it'd be better to concentrate on a decent Sheffield - Brigg - Cleethorpes service, and possibly increasing the frequency of the Barton service back to hourly (with attention given to connections, and facilities, at Habrough). A through service from Barton to the west would, I think, have a very limited market and would just divert resources from where they're more effectively used.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Other options to look at is a new service from Northern Rail, Doncaster - Gainsborough Central - Brigg - Barton Upon Humber - Cleethorpes , this service would serve the new station at Doncaster / Sheffield Airport ( Robin Hood ) when they build it that is

 

[johnnychips]

Other options to look at is a new service from Northern Rail, Doncaster - Gainsborough Central - Brigg - Barton Upon Humber - Cleethorpes , this service would serve the new station at Doncaster / Sheffield Airport ( Robin Hood ) when they build it that is

Not for a while with current passenger numbers.

 

[Tomnick]

But a Brigg - Barton - Grimsby service would be useless for the majority, as it'd take too long as a through service (far better to change at Barnetby, almost certainly). As much as I like the Barton line, I don't think any sort of through service to the west would be justified - most folk from across the river would have far better options from Hull via Doncaster, leaving just the relatively few from the branch itself, who (given the small numbers) would be far better served by using the resources instead to provide an hourly service timed for decent connections at Habrough.

 

[Donny Dave]

The Brigg line is a bit of an oddity, as it isn't connect to the 2 places that most people would travel to on a daily basis. IE. Scunthorpe and Lincoln. A decent connection between Brigg and the 2 places would do wonders for getting traffic off the roads and onto the railway.

Another problem for the line (IMO) is the location of the station. If I had my way, I would loop the line around the North of Brigg and have the station in the vicinity of the Scawby Brook roundabout. That would make the station more accessable to people from Broughton, Scawby and Hibaldstow.

However, both of these problems will be very expensive to sort out, so will probably never be done.

Beyond that I would like to see a bi-hourly service through Brigg, but how to go about it? If the service from Sheffield alternates between Lincoln and Cleethorpes, it halves the service level between 2 cities, and in the long term, could be another nail in the coffin for railways in Lincolnshire. I can't see another service originating from Sheffield though, as Nunnery Main Line Jn is already very busy with 12tph in each direct passing through. The alternatives are then either Retford (to connect with Sheffield - Lincoln services) or Nottingham via Mansfield.

The former isn't really an option, as it would mean stock would have to stabled somewhere away from a depot, and possibly another traincrew depot/signing on point would have to be created.

A service to Nottingham though, I think would be viable in the long term, as long as a few other changes were made at the same time, such as Lincoln - Grimsby/Cleethorpes going hourly, plus the Barton branch going over to EMT as well and being made hourly at the same time. With several service an hour from Grimsby/Cleethorpes, it would be viable then for EMT to create a new traincrew depot, with the added bonus, if there is a problem with a unit, it will be easier to get it to a depot so it can be fixed.

A lot of wishful thinking from me there, hopefully some of it will come true in the future though ....

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Not for a while with current passenger numbers.

That is due to the odd timetable run by EMT on the Doncaster - Gainsborough Lea Road - Lincoln- Peterborough service.

No wonder their is limited numbers of passengers when the service is so odd bod

But a Brigg - Barton - Grimsby service would be useless for the majority, as it'd take too long as a through service (far better to change at Barnetby, almost certainly). As much as I like the Barton line, I don't think any sort of through service to the west would be justified - most folk from across the river would have far better options from Hull via Doncaster, leaving just the relatively few from the branch itself, who (given the small numbers) would be far better served by using the resources instead to provide an hourly service timed for decent connections at Habrough.

It would be a good idea for Network Rail to build a curve from Gainsborough Lea Road - Gainsborough Central

 

[johnnychips]

Sorry I meant the passenger numbers at the airport.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Sorry I meant the passenger numbers at the airport.

The airport " passgenger " numbers are growing each year , like I said I do know that they are planning to build a new station next to the airport, just have to find which service will serve it , Either : Doncaster - Peterborough via Lincoln or Doncaster to Cleethorpes via Gainsborough Central & Brigg

 

[johnnychips]

The airport " passenger " numbers are growing each year , like I said I do know that they are planning to build a new station next to the airport, just have to find which service will serve it , Either : Doncaster - Peterborough via Lincoln or Doncaster to Cleethorpes via Gainsborough Central & Brigg

While I do wish Doncaster airport to succeed, its numbers will fall to about 800 000 this year compared with about a million a couple of years ago. Dedicated bus services have been cut, so I do not see any economic case for a railway station there.

 

[tbtc]

It would be a good idea for Network Rail to build a curve from Gainsborough Lea Road - Gainsborough Central

Why?

The existing line from Grimsby to Lincoln isn't exactly busy - what benefit would there be for such an expensive chord?

 

[neilmc]

While I do wish Doncaster airport to succeed, its numbers will fall to about 800 000 this year compared with about a million a couple of years ago. Dedicated bus services have been cut, so I do not see any economic case for a railway station there.

Easyjet had some flights from Doncaster a couple of years ago, however this was a consequence of an arrangement with Liverpool airport that they wouldn't increase Manchester flights without a correspondence increase in Liverpool flights - or from another Peel owned airport in lieu of Liverpool.

They dropped the arrangement as soon as they legally could because the crewing costs involved in running flights from an airport without a permanent base were too high.