Metro: "Paperless rail tickets 'will pick lowest fare'"

[sheff1]

I wasn't even considering splits in that example.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It shouldn't be difficult for the system to 'look back' at recent history when you touch out at Southampton, see that you left there a few days before, then work out the validity of the various available tickets and therefore the cheapest (combination of) fare(s) applicable.

That does rely on your using the same card for both journeys - which could cause problems for anyone who has multiple cards.

Oyster cards don't have this problem because there's no concept of a return journey - if you make a return journey on oyster pay-as-you-go, you just get charged the cost of two singles. I have to say I like that system. I've never understood why if I make a single journey I get charged about the same as if I was coming back - I regard the return ticket price structure as amounting to price discrimination against people who are making single journeys (or returning by another means) so I'd be very happy if a smartcard meant you ended up being charged for actual journeys made (with return journey = 2*single journey) - provided of course that the change did involve reducing the price of singles, not merely upping the price of returns.
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What about civil liberty implications of this idea is this 1984 Big Brother via back door state knowing your where abouts as you tap in & out & this idea from LibDem MP

No different from using a debit card to pay - that can be tracked too!

 

[SS4]

Split ticketing will still be possible.

You just need more than one smartcard.

How would you manage to do it without changing train though? Run up the stairs touch out, touch in and run back onto the train? Maybe if you're Usain Bolt but not for us mortals

 

[EM2]

How would you manage to do it without changing train though? Run up the stairs touch out, touch in and run back onto the train? Maybe if you're Usain Bolt but not for us mortals

There was an earlier suggestion of card readers on board. That would solve it.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

1. On Thursday I touch in at PGN but how does it know I'm going to BHM
   • does it charge me £83.50 and leave me in the red until I touch out at BHM
   • Does it charge the £1.10 difference in fares - but then how does it know I'm going to BHM?
   • How would it work with a BoJ as per A) above

Oysters do in effect work like that. When you touch in, you'd normally get charged the maximum possible fare that it's possible to pay from the station you're touching in at (even if that leaves your card in the red). Then when you touch out the difference between that and the actual cost of your journey is refunded.

That works for Oyster because the maximum fare is something around £6 (I can't recall the exact amount, but it's not a massive deal if someone gets charged the wrong fare and quibbles it). However, it's much more problematic when the maximum fare is - say - £200. Imagine, say, travelling from Exmouth to Exeter, somehow not touching out, and then finding you'd been charged the maximum possible fare (presumably, the fare from Exmouth to Wick ). Then of course you open the system to fraud (someone could actually travel from Exmouth to Wick, avoid touching out, then claim they only travelled to Exeter and they expect a refund...).

And what do you do if someone touches in with only enough credit to get them 2 miles down the line? Clearly you have to let them touch in because 2 miles down the line might be exactly what they are going to do, but what's to stop them then making a 200 mile journey, putting their smartcard massively in the red, and then just losing the card (for which they conveniently forgot to update their address when they last moved...)

All in all I'd say there are huge problems like that to be worked out before you could have a smart card system work for national rail journeys.
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There was an earlier suggestion of card readers on board. That would solve it.

It would solve that problem. But somehow I can't see card readers on board working on massively overcrowded commuter trains...

 

[transmanche]

But somehow I can't see card readers on board working on massively overcrowded commuter trains...

It's all about positioning. They worked pretty well on London's bendy-buses.

 

[Matt Taylor]

And vast numbers of people only touched in if an inspector got on, the trains would be no different as there would be a stampede to touch in as soon as the guard got near.

 

[Greenback]

We must not forget that it is the conference season, and political parties will be putting forward a lot of things like this, which are designed to appeal to party activists without a great deal of knowledge on the subject.

Unfortunately, these are often reported as policy, or even worse, fact! I wish Mr Baker would come on here and explain his plans in detail!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

With regard to the TOC specifc fares issue, if they were pre-loaded, how would an oyster style card display which TOC the ticket is valid on (NRCoC Condition 10)? How could the card display a geographic route (NRCoC Condition 13)?

What happens if a traveller pre-loads a cheap route and travels by a more expensive route?

....C)If one uses such a card like Oyster PAYG then consider the scenario below. If you buy a ticket "loaded" onto the card then ignore it

1. want to travel from Birmingham [BHM] to Paignton [PGN] and return on Thursday
2. I have £90 stored on my card
3. A SVR costs £84.60 whereas a single is £83.50.
4. The system doesn't know I intend to return on Thursday so it charges £83.50
5. Leaving me in PGN with £6.50
6. On Thursday I touch in at PGN but how does it know I'm going to BHM
   • does it charge me £83.50 and leave me in the red until I touch out at BHM
   • Does it charge the £1.10 difference in fares - but then how does it know I'm going to BHM?
   • How would it work with a BoJ as per A) above

....

And what if you start short at Torquay, or stop short at Banbury, or both?

To be honest, even loading tickets isn't foolproof. I buy a ticket to go to see my brother every so often. I do not board a train at the origin nor do I pass through it at any point. I do not leave the railway system at the destination and the route I theoretically take can't be found by any journey planners, despite being perfectly valid. How could the system detect that I am using that loaded ticket and not a new one?

It may be an obscure thing to happen, but if the system can't cope with it then it is not suitable.

 

[kieron]

Unfortunately, these are often reported as policy, or even worse, fact! I wish Mr Baker would come on here and explain his plans in detail!

He has an e-mail address someone (ideally someone from Lewes) could use to ask him, as well as a postal address.

There's no technical detail in the article, much less a timescale, so I wouldn't expect anything to have been finalised yet. But you never know until you try.

 

[transmanche]

With regard to the TOC specifc fares issue, if they were pre-loaded, how would an oyster style card display which TOC the ticket is valid on (NRCoC Condition 10)? How could the card display a geographic route (NRCoC Condition 13)?

But you're making an assumption that the NRCoC would not change.

TfL amended their CoC quite extensively when Oyster was introduced. Already there's a specific set of 'Oyster Conditions of Use on National Rail' which take precedence over the NRCoC.

So doubtless there will either be similar supplementary provisions, or a wholesale update of the NRCoC to cope.

 

[6Gman]

We must not forget that it is the conference season, and political parties will be putting forward a lot of things like this, which are designed to appeal to party activists without a great deal of knowledge on the subject.

Unfortunately, these are often reported as policy, or even worse, fact! I wish Mr Baker would come on here and explain his plans in detail!

It might just happen! I know he has written to Buses magazine in the past to clarify something they'd printed about him.

I suspect that what's happened here is that some 'think tank' deep in Westminster has said "Why can't we have an Oyster-style card for national rail travel" and a proposal has passed across ministers' desks and been ok'd by them. Umpteen consultants will get a cut in developing a proposal. Which won't work. And will never see the light of day.

Bit like the Class 08 replacement file I found in Rail House, Crewe some years ago

 

[Eagle]

If people didn't mind every single passenger waiting for thirty seconds at every barrier as the software contacted the central database and ran through all the options to calculate exactly which ticket was the most appropriate to charge for, then I'm sure it could take off :roll:

 

[andykn]

Oh, not this nonsense. Unless you're famous or have done something to make authorities suspicious of you then nobody is going to bother looking, and it would be a criminal offence to look at the data without justifiable reason. In any case, in today's world we leave a digital footprint of where we are in most things we do.

I remember a colleague worrying about "them" knowing too much about you when Oyster came in. Then I pointed out he had full admin access to all the details of the millions of customers of our company and did he know anything about anyone? He was a "them" to lots of people.

Then he went to work for TfL!

 

[greatkingrat]

The good news is "The savings in getting rid of magnetic strip tickets – which cost 0.1p each – will be passed on to passengers". I'm sure passengers will be very grateful for their tenth of a penny saving!

 

[andykn]

It would solve that problem. But somehow I can't see card readers on board working on massively overcrowded commuter trains...

They've used them on buses and trams.

I suspect you'd have both platform and on board readers.

Who knows, with facial recognition you might not even need a card, just smile at the camera.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Who knows, with facial recognition you might not even need a card, just smile at the camera.

What if you're wearing one of those fancy dress masks?

 

[Firesprite]

Why bother with a smartcard, Just use your thumbprint,

 

[ainsworth74]

RFID chip implanted under the skin?

 

[HSTEd]

RFID chip implanted under the skin?

Too expensive.

Just etch a barcode into the person's forearm.

 

[causton]

Too expensive.

Just etch a barcode into the person's forearm.

What if they get a cut on it?

Just give them a piece of paper with the ticket details on, with some sort of encoded data on the reverse for a computer to read!

 

[duncanp]

I suspect that what will happen is that a smartcard will be a means of storing the existing range of tickets electronically.

eg. On the same smartcard you could store a monthly season from Basingstoke to Waterloo and an advance purchase return from London to Manchester. These tickets could be ordered on line and picked up by touching in at a machine or ticket barrier.

This is what happens on the Thalys high speed trains in Europe.

Pay as you go would be a pain in the a**e to implement on National Rail due to the complexity of journeys possible, especially multiple concurrent journeys. (eg. Suppose you travel from your home town to Horton in Ribblesdale to spend a few days in the Dales. Next day you might want to buy a return to Appleby, and the day after walk to Ribblehead and take the train back to Horton In Ribblesdale, and then a day trip to Carlisle the day after, etc etc...) How would Pay as you go cope with that?

Not to mention unplanned disruption to services. Anyone using Oyster PAYG on the tube knows how awkward it can be if you, for example, touch in at Victoria, find that the Victoria Line is up the swannee (yet again), touch out, get on a bus and then touch in at another station. You have to phone the Oyster helpline to sort it out and get your card refunded, and it is often easier to get blood out of a stone.

And then there is the problem of people exceeding the maximum journey time. With Oyster PAYG, if you touch in at a station and then do not touch out within (I think) two hours it registers an "incomplete journey" and you have to call the Oyster Helpline (an 0845 number) to get it sorted out. This could be problematic if, to use a previous example, someone was travelling from Exmouth to Wick.

And then how would the system cope with bus substitutions due to engineering works, especially when you board a replacement bus at a stop some distance from the station, at which there is no means to touch in.

 

[NSEFAN]

The fares system would have to be simplified massively in order to make this work. Trying to fit the current farcical system onto an Oyster type system is insanity.

I would maybe make a system as follows:

1) Get rid of the concept of return fares, with journeys based on singles. The break-of journey concept would then really no longer exist.

2) Have only two categories: peak and off-peak. This could be calculated by the journey made and which trains were used. It should be made public which trains will attract a peak/off peak fare.

3) Advance-type fares could be implemented by buying the journeys online beforehand. TOC-specific tickets and season tickets/rover tickets could also be done in this way.

4) A railcard system could be done by making it part of the ticket holder's account. This would mean you don't need to carry a railcard because it's included in your smart card, effectively.


I don't know how well this would work, but I think trying to add too many fancy features will only get us into another nightmare ticket system. KISS, as they say!

 

[crewmeal]

Well I hope it won't use trainline otherwise there will be a charge of £2-50 for using it just like credit cards!

 

[blacknight]

Oh, not this nonsense. Unless you're famous or have done something to make authorities suspicious of you then nobody is going to bother looking, and it would be a criminal offence to look at the data without justifiable reason. In any case, in today's world we leave a digital footprint of where we are in most things we do.

Gues you don't have wife tracking your movements
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Oh, it would be a criminal offence to look at the data without justifiable reason. In any case, in today's world we leave a digital footprint of where we are in most things we do.

Criminal offence that ain't stopped hacking of e-mails & voice mail as it
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We must not forget that it is the conference season, and political parties will be putting forward a lot of things like this, which are designed to appeal to party activists without a great deal of knowledge on the subject.

Unfortunately, these are often reported as policy, or even worse, fact! I wish Mr Baker would come on here and explain his plans in detail!

I would guess there are no details but policy group as discovered that if you spend £45 million you can save 0.1p on every paper ticket so with my CSE maths thats 1000 ticket sales to save a £1 money well spent Not

 

[SS4]

The fares system would have to be simplified massively in order to make this work. Trying to fit the current farcical system onto an Oyster type system is insanity.

I would maybe make a system as follows:

1) Get rid of the concept of return fares, with journeys based on singles. The break-of journey concept would then really no longer exist.

2) Have only two categories: peak and off-peak. This could be calculated by the journey made and which trains were used. It should be made public which trains will attract a peak/off peak fare.

3) Advance-type fares could be implemented by buying the journeys online beforehand. TOC-specific tickets and season tickets/rover tickets could also be done in this way.

4) A railcard system could be done by making it part of the ticket holder's account. This would mean you don't need to carry a railcard because it's included in your smart card, effectively.


I don't know how well this would work, but I think trying to add too many fancy features will only get us into another nightmare ticket system. KISS, as they say!

Sounds a lot like redefining lowest which is entirely plausible of course

 

[NSEFAN]

Sounds a lot like redefining lowest which is entirely plausible of course

If we're going to make a major change to the ticket system, we might as well fix some of its problems in the process. There's no point making all that effort to get e-tickets going if all they do is support the same convoluted fares structure underneath.

 

[SS4]

If we're going to make a major change to the ticket system, we might as well fix some of its problems in the process. There's no point making all that effort to get e-tickets going if all they do is support the same convoluted fares structure underneath.

Yeah, I didn't mean to come across as condescending/harsh on you, your suggestions are good. I'm just concerned that an overhaul of fares will hurt the passenger if not done right and what chance do our elected officials have of getting it right

 

[maniacmartin]

What I predict is a smartcard-based system will be brought in alongside the existing paper-based system with the full range of existing ticketting options. If using smartcards, then PAYG journeys will be simplified as NSEFAN suggests.

Then over time fares will be increased on paper tickets like what happened with London Underground until the smartcard tickets are much cheaper. Then the paper tickets will be withdrawn due to lack of use, and the rail industry will succeed in eroding our flexibility and rights under the current NRCoC and it'll be too late to object to it by then.

Time will tell

 

[Firesprite]

My Oyster card packed up tonight, Had to buy a paper ticket to get back to Kings Cross.