Metro: "Paperless rail tickets 'will pick lowest fare'"

[maniacmartin]

This story was on the front page of today's Metro today.

Paper train tickets will be phased out and replaced with smartcards that will always select the lowest fare, transport minister Norman Baker has vowed.

 

[gordonthemoron]

yeah, right

 

[SS4]

Hahahahahaha, good one Mr Baker.

Is it April 1st already?!

 

[starrymarkb]

Is someone thinking of the OV-Chipkaart in the Netherlands?

 

[wintonian]

What I think is ment here is the lowest fare between two stations, so for example if travelling from Southampton Central to Waterloo on a Sunday it will automatically charge you for a Super off peak.

I highly doubt it would be possible for such a smart card system to take account of split ticketing or baying further.

However I'm not sure how it could account for the route taken without people getting of and using route validators.

Remember it is the fares structure that is a complicated mess not the medium of delivery.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Yes, this will be a way of preventing split-ticketing. What about TOC only tickets? How will barriers know which train you have used from Euston to Milton Keynes for example?

 

[DarloRich]

of course they will!

 

[wintonian]

Yes, this will be a way of preventing split-ticketing. What about TOC only tickets? How will barriers know which train you have used from Euston to Milton Keynes for example?

On train validators, thus also making ITSO tech available for advances?

Or is that being a bit to futuristic?

 

[Greenback]

Yes, I fial to see how changing the medium in which tickets come can work within the way the fares system is currently set up, and my great fear of smartcards is that the changes that need to be made in order for them to work will not be in the interests of fare paying passengers at all.

Of course, the notion of smart card ticketing being simpler and cheape rwill be the way that the negative changes to routeing, and T&C's will be sold to the public.

I am also thoroughly sick of the notion that season tickets are in some way only useful to those work work Monday to Friday 9-5 hours. They are not. I have had a few evening and weekend jobs where my season was as much of a benefit as it is when I work business hours! Which is not to say that there can't be mini seasons, or flexi seasons, to aid those who only want to use them for 3 or 10 days (for instance).

 

[blacknight]

Reality check for Mr Baker If TOC's are knocking at the door to close ticket offices-Tell them thats a non starter not look into pie in the sky alternatives .
So staff are made redundant treasury takes a double wammy:-
1 Treasury coffers suffer the loss of taxes coming in from rail staff wages
2 Treasury coffers have to pay out more to in dole money & other state benefits to now redundant rail staff whilst they look for alternative employment.
So Mr Baker how do find £45 million to fund the project as country is almost another european basket case.

 

[Bungle73]

Oyster Card works on the Tube because there is only one type of ticket and no seat reservations. I fail to see how a similar system on the National Rail network would work when you've loads of different types of tickets with different restrictions. How is the passenger supposed to know which kind of ticket they have, which train they are supposed to be on, and which seat is theirs without a physical print out? You might as well give them a paper ticket.

 

[transmanche]

What about TOC only tickets? How will barriers know which train you have used from Euston to Milton Keynes for example?

I guess the barriers would only need to 'know' if the system worked in the same way as Oyster.

But this is the great unknown... will you have to load a ticket onto the card at a ticket office/TVM (or collect a ticket ordered online from the barrier) first? Or will you be able to just PAYG, as on Oyster?

I suspect we'll see a combination of both.

 

[tsr]

Does anyone agree that a serious evaluation (or perhaps a re-evaluation) is needed of the potential of a system where all the validators are on the trains? You'd have to strictly enforce the rules of touching in and out on board, and I'm not sure how this would be done. Such a system could eventually get rid of barriers at stations, enable easier and/or more flexible interchanges (maybe), remove the need to install, maintain a connection to and ensure the functionality of validators at little-used stations.

In addition, you'd only pay when you were actually on the train, saving wasted tickets, refund requirements and the like, and the train's operator, location and any delays/diversions could easily be taken into consideration.

If you could top-up and buy tickets on board from a conductor or buffet car staff, so much the better!

 

[cuccir]

Smart ticketing will probably end up being a way of preventing people from splitting their journey without changing trains.

Ignoring splits, though, it shouldn't be too difficult to programme a ticket to select the cheapest fare - isn't this essentially what Oyster does now by discerning between peak/off-peak, and relevant zone caps.

 

[SS4]

A) Break of Journey (BoJ). All but eliminated on LU but still useful if you need to pop to the shops en route. Enforce splitting in this case will rarely be cheaper and often more expensive, especially between stations in the same cluster.

B) Returns - currently they're about a £1 than singles off peak - how would a station know (when I touched in) that I was making a return journey?

C)If one uses such a card like Oyster PAYG then consider the scenario below. If you buy a ticket "loaded" onto the card then ignore it

1. want to travel from Birmingham [BHM] to Paignton [PGN] and return on Thursday
2. I have £90 stored on my card
3. A SVR costs £84.60 whereas a single is £83.50.
4. The system doesn't know I intend to return on Thursday so it charges £83.50
5. Leaving me in PGN with £6.50
6. On Thursday I touch in at PGN but how does it know I'm going to BHM
   • does it charge me £83.50 and leave me in the red until I touch out at BHM
   • Does it charge the £1.10 difference in fares - but then how does it know I'm going to BHM?
   • How would it work with a BoJ as per A) above

D) Season tickets - suppose I hold a Birmingham zones 2-5 weekly season. I touch in at Chester Road (CRD) which is in zone 3 and want to go to Tame Bridge Parkway.

• How does it know if I change at Aston/Duddeston (zone 2) or BHM (zone 1)? Admittedly a pink reader at interchange stations would work here
• What would it charge if I left the zones completely? For arguments sake let's say I went from CRD to Tamworth via Lichfield TV. The NWM zone ends at Blake Street so do I get charged from Blake Street/Boundary Zone 5 to Tamworth (via LTV) or from Boundary Zone 2 (if it exists) to Tamworth? Although pink readers at LTV will read it
• What if one never touched out until back in the zones? More for London this one but how would it know what to charge

I'd not fancy any changes to ticketing whilst we have a government determined to make passengers pay more and is definitely not a good idea with toothless Passenger Focus and passenger advocacy groups practically non-existent. Better the devil you know.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Smart ticketing will probably end up being a way of preventing people from splitting their journey without changing trains.

Ignoring splits, though, it shouldn't be too difficult to programme a ticket to select the cheapest fare - isn't this essentially what Oyster does now by discerning between peak/off-peak, and relevant zone caps.

Yet there is clearly enough demand for MikeWh's site to get off the ground and maintain activity.

Everything on that left side bar under "Pages" is complexity within the Oyster system although Buses & Trams and Wimbledon wouldn't apply to a wholly rail scheme. In terms of area the TfL network is tiny compared to the NR one.


Actually that wholly rail scheme reminded of just how would combined tickets work - Whether a nNetwork (valid on bus+metro too) or a plusbus?

 

[maniacmartin]

Readers on the trains themselves makes a lot of senses in many ways. They'd know exactly which train you took. If it was delayed they could even automatically credit you your delay repay (Oh theres some wishful thinking ).

I suspect how it actually is implemented, is that advance and TOC-only tickets will still need booking in advance, and then "collected" at a station gateline, similar to how Oyster can be topped up online then collected by touching through a gateline.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Good points SS4. I think that PAYG journeys on such a card would only be singles (so no returns available). Hopefully if there is no interchange reader you'll always be charged the cheapest route you could have gone, how Oyster mostly works today

 

[blacknight]

What about civil liberty implications of this idea is this 1984 Big Brother via back door state knowing your where abouts as you tap in & out & this idea from LibDem MP

 

[starrymarkb]

What about civil liberty implications of this idea is this 1984 Big Brother via back door state knowing your where abouts as you tap in & out & this idea from LibDem MP

The Dutch have both personal cards (registered to a person) and anonymous cards (obviously not available online but can be collected from stations and transport offices) - there are also disposable cards valid for one journey or one day (much like our magnetic tickets)

 

[Stats]

What about civil liberty implications of this idea is this 1984 Big Brother via back door state knowing your where abouts as you tap in & out & this idea from LibDem MP

Oh, not this nonsense. Unless you're famous or have done something to make authorities suspicious of you then nobody is going to bother looking, and it would be a criminal offence to look at the data without justifiable reason. In any case, in today's world we leave a digital footprint of where we are in most things we do.

 

[transmanche]

What about civil liberty implications of this idea is this 1984 Big Brother via back door state knowing your where abouts as you tap in & out & this idea from LibDem MP

If you get an Oystercard, you can have a registered one, or an unregistered 'anonymous' one.*

Some groups have expressed concern at the growing number of Police requests for Oystercard data. In 2004, they made 4 requests - in 2011, they made 6,258 requests! TfL say that they reject between 5 & 10% of Police requests.


[*]If a registered card is lost or stolen, it can be blocked and a replacement sent with the remaining value transferred. If an unregistered card is lost or stolen, then it's just like losing cash. Cards holding monthly or longer tickets have to be registered.

 

[SS4]

Oh, not this nonsense. Unless you're famous or have done something to make authorities suspicious of you then nobody is going to bother looking, and it would be a criminal offence to look at the data without justifiable reason. In any case, in today's world we leave a digital footprint of where we are in most things we do.

Until we get a written constitution defining suspicious I'd rather it wasn't the case. Digital footprint is still technically optional

 

[HSTEd]

Oh, not this nonsense. Unless you're famous or have done something to make authorities suspicious of you then nobody is going to bother looking, and it would be a criminal offence to look at the data without justifiable reason. In any case, in today's world we leave a digital footprint of where we are in most things we do.

Yes, "justifiable reason" under the current terrorism legislation on the statute book is the police saying "we don't like the look of him"

 

[sheff1]

What I think is ment here is the lowest fare between two stations, so for example if travelling from Southampton Central to Waterloo on a Sunday it will automatically charge you for a Super off peak.

Even if I want to return to Southampton on Monday morning after 0930 ?

 

[The Ham]

it is likely that ticketing will change a lot from the current system, maybe going over to a price per mile which change depending on the time of day. For example £1 plus £0.27 per mile for a lunch time train journey from Woking to London and returning at 8pm (a little cheaper that currently), but this rises to £3 plus £0.35 per mile travelling to arrive at Waterloo at 08:30 and leave Waterloo at 18:00 (a bit more than the current any time fare).

You then opt to buy discounts which would reduce your costs if you travelled enough by train, much in the same way that the rail card currently do.

For instance if you pre pay an amount and use it within a set time frame you get x% more next time you top up or you pay a fixed fee and get y% discount on all fares for a year whilst if you pay a smaller fee you only get the reduction on low demand train fares.

 

[maniacmartin]

Even if I want to return to Southampton on Monday morning after 0930 ?

The lowest fare for the times you touched the card in at

 

[transmanche]

Yes, "justifiable reason" under the current terrorism legislation on the statute book is the police saying "we don't like the look of him"

And not just the Police.

The Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 was introduced as an anti-terrorism measure. Its scope was widened in 2003, so now bodies as diverse as your local council or the Foods Standard Agency can demand access to your phone records* on the say-so of a senior employee - without needing a court warrant.


[*]Details of who you called, not actual recordings of conversations.

 

[sheff1]

The lowest fare for the times you touched the card in at

Yes, but the Super Off Peak Day Single Southampton to Waterloo is £34.10. Coupled with a Off Peak Day Single @ £35.90 on Monday the total charge would be £70, whereas an Off Peak Return is only £39.40. No Super Off Peak Return is available.

 

[EM2]

Yes, but the Super Off Peak Day Single Southampton to Waterloo is £34.10. Coupled with a Off Peak Day Single @ £35.90 on Monday the total charge would be £70, whereas an Off Peak Return is only £39.40. No Super Off Peak Return is available.

It shouldn't be difficult for the system to 'look back' at recent history when you touch out at Southampton, see that you left there a few days before, then work out the validity of the various available tickets and therefore the cheapest (combination of) fare(s) applicable.

 

[sheff1]

It shouldn't be difficult for the system to 'look back' at recent history when you touch out at Southampton, see that you left there a few days before, then work out the validity of the various available tickets and therefore the cheapest (combination of) fare(s) applicable.

Your faith in IT suppliers is obviously a lot greater than mine .

If we do give them the benefit of the doubt on this simple example, I would not rate the chances of the following resulting in the 'lowest fare' being charged:

Sunday: Southampton to London by train, then by car to Colchester.
Monday; Train Colchester to Norwich in the morning. Train Norwich to Southampton, via London, in the evening.
This is very similar to an actual journey I undertook earlier this year.

 

[route:oxford]

Split ticketing will still be possible.

You just need more than one smartcard.