Train cancelled Following Overshoot

[Temple Meads]

They are not as anonymous as you think. Anyone who personally knows a poster well is likely to be able to identify them for their posts.

I'm not too sure about that, for instance my names "Tim" and I was born in 1996, but if I used the username "Peter1984" people would assume I was called Peter and born in 1984.

Also, anyone who knows me well will know that I never like to use text speak, or bad spelling punctuation in an open forum, so I'd only need to add a dab of bad English to help disguise my true identity.

If a post in such a thread is a users first it certainly does add a degree of suspicion, so if the user posted a few times in other parts of the forum that would help too.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Most, if not all, companies will D & A after a station overshoot, driver will be lifted for that

A fairly well known example at St Margaret's last year suggests that people are more likely to lose their jobs for trying to brush things under the carpet than for making a mistake, we are all human after all.

 

[455driver]

I have no problem in discussing errors in my managers work to their manager. It's not grassing them up, just making sure they know they are doing it wrong.

Perhaps you could post a few of these errors on here, complete with dates and times etc, so we can all discuss them as well, it only seems fair!

Internet forums can be an anonymous as you want them to be. If the driver in question chooses their words correctly, they can fight their corner (if they really feel the need to) and still remain unknown.

If the driver was to "get into a debate" about an incident they were involved in on the internet they will be in breach of their contract and can be sacked, it isnt rocket science for managers to work out who is who on the internet.

I've spoken to the media many times about my work role. They agree to keep my identity secret (in the form of a signed contract letter) and I tell them what I really think.

See reply above.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A fairly well known example at St Margaret's last year suggests that people are more likely to lose their jobs for trying to brush things under the carpet than for making a mistake, we are all human after all.

That one was "interesting" to put it mildly!

 

[185]

Best 'wrong' allegation of an overshoot:

Diverted Leeds to Manchester via Salford Crescent. Train terminating at Piccadilly, eng possession on the Manc Airport line.

Upon arrival at Plat 13, train needed shunting round to the main shed.

Train full of disabled schoolkids in wheelchairs off on holiday. Lift on Plat 13 broken.

With signalbox permission, we came in from Salford Crescent and sailed right through platform 13 at 25mph, went up to the gantry, gave one on the buzzer, switched ends, and brought the train back into platform 10. Wheelchair problem solved.

Got upstairs..... "You've just overshot Manchester Piccadilly station".

There's some very, very stupid managers about. That allegation eventually got thrown out.

 

[es373]

Most likely because the driver would have been taken off for a D&A test and no cover available.

 

[455driver]

There's some very, very stupid managers about.

Now on that we do agree!

 

[KA4C]

Best 'wrong' allegation of an overshoot:

Diverted Leeds to Manchester via Salford Crescent. Train terminating at Piccadilly, eng possession on the Manc Airport line.

Upon arrival at Plat 13, train needed shunting round to the main shed.

Train full of disabled schoolkids in wheelchairs off on holiday. Lift on Plat 13 broken.

With signalbox permission, we came in from Salford Crescent and sailed right through platform 13 at 25mph, went up to the gantry, gave one on the buzzer, switched ends, and brought the train back into platform 10. Wheelchair problem solved.

Got upstairs..... "You've just overshot Manchester Piccadilly station".

There's some very, very stupid managers about. That allegation eventually got thrown out.

Thrown out"? for gods sake, how did ever get as far as being a substantiated allegation?

 

[michael769]

Thrown out"? for gods sake, how did ever get as far as being a substantiated allegation?

With some people in management roles (typically those promoted well above their abilities) once they get an idea in their head they will simply refuse to see reason no matter how many smart people tell them why they are wrong. These people only see reason when forced to, and sadly many never seem to learn from those experiences.

 

[northwichcat]

Most likely because the driver would have been taken off for a D&A test and no cover available.

As has already been pointed out Chester is a base for ATW crews and is where a crew change usually occurs on Llandudno-Manchester services.

 

[KA4C]

With some people in management roles (typically those promoted well above their abilities) once they get an idea in their head they will simply refuse to see reason no matter how many smart people tell them why they are wrong. These people only see reason when forced to, and sadly many never seem to learn from those experiences.

Yeah, come across they, still got the scars.

 

[A-driver]

As has already been pointed out Chester is a base for ATW crews and is where a crew change usually occurs on Llandudno-Manchester services.

Dosnt mean there are spare drivers around-driver depots don't just have dozens of drivers sitting around waiting for something to go wrong.

 

[GB]

There's some very, very stupid managers about.

Indeed, I know of one manager for Network Rail that was trying to suggest that replatforming a freight train constitutes a wrong routing :roll:

 

[KA4C]

Indeed, I know of one manager for Network Rail that was trying to suggest that replatforming a freight train constitutes a wrong routing :roll:

If I'm waiting for it on the original platform, then it does!

 

[GB]

No, no crew relief booked. Its straight through into the yard beyond the station where all platform lines give access.

 

[northwichcat]

Dosnt mean there are spare drivers around-driver depots don't just have dozens of drivers sitting around waiting for something to go wrong.

Like I and other posters have said Chester would be the usual place for a crew change anyway. If they was no driver available to take over then the service would likely have been cancelled anyway overshoot or no overshoot, so there wouldn't have been any need for ATW to have told passengers about it considering the OP said the passengers got off at Chester without a reversal being required.

 

[Whistler40145]

I agree, you can't magic a traincrew out of nowhere, overshoot or not. I cannot see in privatisation that many TOCs have lots of spare traincrew.

 

[A-driver]

Not every service will be booked a crew change anyway. So perhaps this one didn't have a crew change booked and no spare man. Not quite sure why this crew change has become such a big issue?...

 

[Whistler40145]

I don't class it an issue, many seem to think otherwise.

 

[northwichcat]

Not every service will be booked a crew change anyway. So perhaps this one didn't have a crew change booked and no spare man. Not quite sure why this crew change has become such a big issue?...

So could a unit really do:

Chester-Llandudno
Llandudno-Llandudno Junction
Llandudno Junction-Llandudno
Llandudno-Chester-Manchester
Manchester-Chester

without a change in crew?

 

[A-driver]

Dunno-how long dies it take? More than 4-5 hours? A unit can do London-Newcastle without a crew change.

 

[A-driver]

And are any of the turn around times over 10 mins? Or a different crew bringing it back from Manchester etc?

 

[Tomnick]

Is there a traincrew depot at Llandudno Junction, and if so do they sign to Manchester? This critical crew change at Chester might not always be necessary if that's the case!

 

[TDK]

There is no 'partly correct' about it!,I'm stating the rules as they stand,and no you cannot set back over 400m following a platform overshoot,a Signalman can only give authorisation up to that distance providing he follows the regs to make that move.I don't know how many platforms have a signal and neither,I suspect, do you,I can only state what occurs if there is such a signal and it is 'spadded'.

I am not going to argue with you but there have been occasions where trains have set back over 400m route permitting and this happens a lot more than you would imagine. If there is a SPAD the station over run becomes insigificant the same goes for a TPWS brake demand approaching a danger signal also.

 

[Tomnick]

No argument is necessary - I'm sure there have been occasions when the rules have been bent slightly and wrong direction movements have been authorised in excess of 400m following a station overrun, but the Rule Book is quite clear, and leaves nothing to the Signalman's discretion. As far as I'm aware, this (the 400m bit at least) isn't a recent development either.

From TW7:

1.1 Authority for a wrong-direction movement

A wrong-direction movement for which no signal is provided may be authorised only in the following circumstances.
• A train is to return after overrunning a platform as long as the overrun is not more than 400 metres (440 yards) beyond the platform.
• A train is to return after taking a wrong route at a junction.
• A train is to make a movement to return from or proceed towards a line blocked by an accident, failure, obstruction, or other exceptional incident.
• A train cannot continue forward and has to return because it has failed, or it cannot be driven from the cab at the leading end.
• A light locomotive or multiple-unit train (loaded or empty) is to proceed over the affected or unaffected line to assist a failed train.
• The front portion of a divided train is to return to the rear portion.
• An engineering train is to move towards or from a line under possession.
• A shunting movement is to be made through points that are worked from a ground frame.
• Single line working is in operation.
• A rail-grinding train is to return to extinguish a lineside fire.

 

[GB]

Is there a specific reason for being a maximum of 400m?

 

[Whistler40145]

I remember doing a Weymouth to Bristol TM loco hauled behind 37053 & I presume in error the Driver forgot to stop at Keynsham, but proceeded to the next Signal, Driver got out & telephoned the Signalman & must have been given permission to reverse back to Keynsham.

 

[TDK]

No argument is necessary - I'm sure there have been occasions when the rules have been bent slightly and wrong direction movements have been authorised in excess of 400m following a station overrun, but the Rule Book is quite clear, and leaves nothing to the Signalman's discretion. As far as I'm aware, this (the 400m bit at least) isn't a recent development either.

From TW7:

I am fully aware of what the rule book states and do not need any part of it pasted to remind me to be honest and yes, this rule has been in the rule book for over 12 years.

This rule of course quotes a wrong direction movement without fixed signals and is different if the line is bi-directional or a single line of course. It is down to signallers discression if a train over runs by say 500m and the signaller gives permission for the move to be made that gives the driver authority to carry out the move!