Farringdon to Brighton to Clapham Junction

[dandodex]

Hi all,

On Saturday I have to do the following route:

Outgoing around 10:30 Farringdon (ZFD) to Brighton (£15.40 single) Return around 18:45 Brighton to Clapham Junction (£10 single) Total £25.40.

Can I use a £15.50 Farringdon-Brighton-Farringdon return instead?

The BrFares website has a restriction of NOT UNDERGROUND for this fare (CDR OFF-PEAK DAY R): http://www.brfares.com/#fares? orig=ZFD&dest=BTN&rlc=%20%20%20

So my questions: 1) Is this like the ANY PERMITTED restriction so I can get First Capital Connect out and Southern back as long as I do not use the tube? 2) Can I return with Southern and get off at Clapham Junction?

Thanks,

Dan

 

[telstarbox]

Does Farringdon count as a London Terminal for routeing? If so then you can use the ticket back to Clapham Junction as a London Terminals-Brighton ticket is valid using Map LB. From Brighton take any train to Victoria - they all call at Clapham Junction.

 

[LexyBoy]

1) Yes - unless there is a named TOC (or TOCs) which the the ticket is restricted to, it is valid on all operators.

2) Yes, there are no break of journey restrictions on this ticket (and there shouldn't be on the return portion of any Off Peak Day Return), no problem leaving at CJ. (CJ is on a permitted route from Brighton to Farringdon, as discussed here before.)

 

[b0b]

Does Farringdon count as a London Terminal for routeing?

No. It's associated with London Group, but its not a member.

 

[LexyBoy]

No. It's associated with London Group, but its not a member.

Therefore appropriate London stations are those south of Farringdon from which Farringdon can be reached not via Underground. City Thameslink is the obvious one and map LB allows travel via CLJ (then Waterloo, London Bridge etc).

In fact maps LB+SL allow travel via Victoria from Brighton to Blackfriars or London Bridge, so I think this would be allowed too (though expect to be challenged at Victoria if it doesn't open the gates).

 

[b0b]

Therefore appropriate London stations are those south of Farringdon from which Farringdon can be reached not via Underground. City Thameslink is the obvious one and map LB allows travel via CJ (then Waterloo, London Bridge etc).

But don't you have to do a fares check first, to make sure London Group is an appropriate routeing point - which south of Farringdon station are you using to pass the fares check?

Otherwise that leaves the shortest route, or any route 3 miles of that one. I doubt that allows Brighton - Clapham Junction - Waterloo - Waterloo East - London Bridge - Farringdon (but I havent checked)

 

[LexyBoy]

SDS for Brighton-Farringdon and Brighton-London Blackfriars are both £21.00 (Any Permitted / Not Underground respectively).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

But don't you have to do a fares check first, to make sure London Group is an appropriate routeing point - which south of Farringdon station are you using to pass the fares check?....

Farringdon Underground is associated to only one routeing point, that being London Group. If, knowing that, you still need to work out which of the associated routeing points are appropriate, you need your head testing.

 

[b0b]

SDS for Brighton-Farringdon and Brighton-London Blackfriars are both £21.00 (Any Permitted / Not Underground respectively).

Perfect! I didn't spot that one.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Farringdon Underground is associated to only one routeing point, that being London Group. If, knowing that, you still need to work out which of the associated routeing points are appropriate, you need your head testing.

There can be zero appropriate routeing points for a station, if none pass a fares check.

 

[dandodex]

I'm in awe at the level of detail of some of the replies here but my knowledge of the subject us limited so am unclear what it all means!

Can a kind should explain it to me like talking to a 5 year old?

This is from the FCC website for the fare in case it helps:

OFF-PEAK DAY RETURN TICKET TYPE OFF-PEAK DAY

DESCRIPTION Flexible ticket only valid at specific off-peak times of the day.

VALIDITY You must travel on off-peak trains on the date specified. Off-peak times vary by route - our journey planner only shows off-peak tickets on trains for which they are valid.

BOOKING Can be booked in advance or purchased on the day of travel.

REFUNDS If you decide not to use your ticket to make all or part of your intended journey then you can apply for a refund from the My Account pages, or through Customer Support within 28 days of expiry of the ticket. Please note, the outward portion cannot be refunded if the return portion has been used. A GBP 10.00 administration fee will apply and the amount of the refund will take into account any use you have made of the ticket and in some circumstances no refund will be paid.

AMENDING YOUR BOOKING You can change the time of your outward journey and the date and time of your return journey without changing your tickets. If you wish to change your date of travel or Class of ticket, you will need to buy a new ticket and apply for a refund on your current ticket.

DISCOUNTS Yes - normal railcard and child discounts available.

BREAK OF JOURNEY You may start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station along the route of travel.

OTHER CONDITIONS The outward portion of an Off-Peak Day Return ticket is only valid for travel when accompanied by an unused return portion.

Route This ticket is only valid for routes not involving tube travel.

 

[Pen Mill]

You could try a zone 1-6 day travel card , then book an East Croydon ( Zone 5) off-peak return to Brighton.
Cost would be , from memory £8 for the card + £10 off peak day return.Total of £18

I'll check the travel card out , be back in a minute

EDIT : £8.50 for the travel card full price.


Just layman's talk but if I'm doing more than a single journey in the London zones , I find that the travel card is nearly always the best value

 

[b0b]

You could try a zone 1-5 day travel card , then book an East Croydon ( Zone 5) off-peak return to Brighton.
Cost would be , from memory £8 for the card + £10 off peak day return.Total of £18

I'll check the travel card out , be back in a minute

Boundary Zone 5 to Brighton CDR is 17.70 itself.

 

[dandodex]

Stupid android keyboard...
us limited = is limited
kind should = kind soul

I'm in awe at the level of detail of some of the replies here but my knowledge of the subject us limited so am unclear what it all means!

Can a kind should explain it to me like talking to a 5 year old?

This is from the FCC website for the fare in case it helps:

OFF-PEAK DAY RETURN TICKET TYPE OFF-PEAK DAY

DESCRIPTION Flexible ticket only valid at specific off-peak times of the day.

VALIDITY You must travel on off-peak trains on the date specified. Off-peak times vary by route - our journey planner only shows off-peak tickets on trains for which they are valid.

BOOKING Can be booked in advance or purchased on the day of travel.

REFUNDS If you decide not to use your ticket to make all or part of your intended journey then you can apply for a refund from the My Account pages, or through Customer Support within 28 days of expiry of the ticket. Please note, the outward portion cannot be refunded if the return portion has been used. A GBP 10.00 administration fee will apply and the amount of the refund will take into account any use you have made of the ticket and in some circumstances no refund will be paid.

AMENDING YOUR BOOKING You can change the time of your outward journey and the date and time of your return journey without changing your tickets. If you wish to change your date of travel or Class of ticket, you will need to buy a new ticket and apply for a refund on your current ticket.

DISCOUNTS Yes - normal railcard and child discounts available.

BREAK OF JOURNEY You may start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station along the route of travel.

OTHER CONDITIONS The outward portion of an Off-Peak Day Return ticket is only valid for travel when accompanied by an unused return portion.

Route This ticket is only valid for routes not involving tube travel.

 

[LexyBoy]

Can a kind should explain it to me like talking to a 5 year old?

You can use that ticket to travel on any train providing you use what are called "Permitted Routes". Direct trains are always permitted, so you can go from Farringdon to Brighton on FCC. You can also travel on routes which are defined by a mind-bending series of documents known as the Routeing Guide. One of these is Brighton-CJ-Waterloo-London Bridge-Farringdon. You can also leave at any intermediate station if you wish, so you can leave at CJ. (And continue later if you so choose).

Basically, the ticket you suggested is fine for your planned journey.

 

[b0b]

How about a Farringdon to London Bridge, for 2.40 and combine with the Southern Daysave for 12?

obviously joining the Southern Services at London Bridge,

edit: Farringdon to London Bridge with Oyster PAYG, for 2.00, so 14 total
edit 2: i guess its too short notice to get the daysave get the farringdon>brighton cdr

 

[dandodex]

Boundary Zone 5 to Brighton CDR is 17.70 itself.

What about the £15.50 return but on the way back cut my trip short at east Croydon, out the gates, oyster payg back in and oyster payg out at clapham junction for £2.10?

It would only add a few minutes to the trip and trains from east Croydon are frequent.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

There can be zero appropriate routeing points for a station, if none pass a fares check.

Read the rules:

....If you are unsure whether a particular routeing point for the origin station is
the correct one compare the fare from that routeing point to the destination
with the fare for the throughout journey - it is an appropriate routeing point
only if that fare is the same or lower than the fare for the throughout journey
from the origin station to the destination station....

If, when you see that there is only one Associated Routeing Point, you cannot be sure if it is the one to use, you need your head testing!

 

[Deerfold]

Read the rules:



If, when you see that there is only one Associated Routeing Point, you cannot be sure if it is the one to use, you need your head testing!

No, surely there can be no associated routeing points if none pass the fares check - in which case there are no mapped routes and the only permitted routes are the shortest and any direct trains.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

No, surely there can be no associated routeing points if none pass the fares check - in which case there are no mapped routes and the only permitted routes are the shortest and any direct trains.

Read it, if you are unsure which one is appropriate you do the fares check rule, how can you possibly be unsure if there is only one to use?

 

[Deerfold]

Read it, if you are unsure which one is appropriate you do the fares check rule, how can you possibly be unsure if there is only one to use?

But the NRG you quoted says:

...it is an appropriate routeing point only if that fare is the same or lower than the fare for the throughout journey
from the origin station to the destination station....

so I don't understand how it can be appropriate if it fails that test - and if I am unsure (humour me for a second) and apply the test it fails.

I suspect to be clearer the NRG should say

....If you are unsure whether a particular routeing point for the origin station is
a correct one

instead of

....If you are unsure whether a particular routeing point for the origin station is
the correct one

as we know there can often be more than one "correct" one to use.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You haven't answered the question, if there is one choice, how can you be unsure which choice is the correct one?

If you can't be unsure, why do you need to do a fares check?

If you can be unsure about it, are you sure you are safe to be near the railway?

 

[b0b]

So if a station has multiple associated routeing points, as long as you are sure you have the one that is appropriate, you do not need to fares check?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You could say that, but then if the Guard/RPI does do a fares check because they are not sure, then the reality of the permitted routes would be revealed, possibly leaving you up a well known proverbial creek without an equally well known proverbial paddle.

 

[MikeWh]

So, are you saying that if a station only has one routeing point that it is automatically an appropriate routeing point even if the fares check actually fails? It just seems odd that a station with two points where both fail has no appropriate routeing points (leaving just the shortest route, up to 3 miles longer and direct trains) but a station with only one point is also guaranteed to be able to use that routeing point as well.

Of course all this is somewhat hypothetical because pretty much every station has at least two routeing points, even those at the end of a branch. I suspect that Farringdon is unique being situated between members of a routeing group and the fact that the fares are identical means that there isn't a problem anyway.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I think the assumption of the Routeing Guide is that one Routeing Point will pass the test, unfortunately the fares structure hasn't always made that so.

But to answer your question, I don't see how you can be unsure of which Routeing Point to use if there is only one Routeing Point to choose from.

I think the extremities of the network have one routeing point (for obvious reasons), but Farringdon is odd as a central London station.

 

[LexyBoy]

You could say that, but then if the Guard/RPI does do a fares check because they are not sure, then the reality of the permitted routes would be revealed,

Those would be the permitted routes for the RPI or guard though. If I'm still sure that a routeing point is appropriate then it would be permitted for me. Quantum Routeing Dynamics allows routes to be both permitted and not permitted at the same time. The superposition only collapses when the train driver kills a cat. That's my understanding anyway.

QRD also explains the wave-like motion observed in trains as they get smaller, for example the Pacer.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

A routeing point is not appropriate simply because you want it to be, it is or it is not. The fares check would simply back up your being certain of it being the appropriate routeing point (if indeed it is).

 

[yorkie]

Hmm... I can see a convincing argument on both 'sides' of this debate.

I think HHFs view is, in fact, reasonable, though I am not entirely certain that it is what ATOC would consider 'correct' however it is the most beneficial to the customer, therefore I believe it is what should prevail, given any doubt.

BUt there's no need for comments such as ' are you sure you are safe to be near the railway?', we can have a sensible debate and agree to disagree on matters without that!

 

[LexyBoy]

A routeing point is not appropriate simply because you want it to be, it is or it is not. The fares check would simply back up your being certain of it being the appropriate routeing point (if indeed it is).

So would you agree that a routeing point is appropriate...

only if that fare is the same or lower than the fare for the throughout journey from the origin station to the destination station

?

Your argument that if there's only one RP then it must obviously be "appropriate" and that anyone that thinks otherwise must need their head examining ignores the fact that:

- The "How to Use the National Routeing Guide" document has already explained that through trains and the shortest route are permitted routes, and thus there is not necessarily a need for a mapped route;
- a reasonable person could read the second half of the paragraph which I have quoted above and become unsure whether the sole RP is appropriate;
- nowhere is it mentioned that there is always an appropriate routeing point;
- a reasonable person may want a bit more detail and so read "The National Routeing Guide in Detail":

FINDING APPROPRIATE ROUTEING POINTS
Any routeing point can be used, provided it does not

• use routes not permitted for the journey
• cause doubling back (passing through the same station twice between origin and destination)
• make the journey double back through the origin or destination station unless the fare permits (for example Ealing Broadway to Swindon via London).
• allow travel by a route which does not satisfy the fare-check rule. This rule is explained in the box below.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....BUt there's no need for comments such as ' are you sure you are safe to be near the railway?', we can have a sensible debate and agree to disagree on matters without that!

I really don't see why it was so bad, I mean, if you can't chose an answer for a question, when in fact there is only one possible answer, then I do have to wonder about the intelligence level of the individual. However, I shall try to refrain from using such strong language in future if that will make everyone happy.

So would you agree that a routeing point is appropriate...

only if that fare is the same or lower than the fare for the throughout journey from the origin station to the destination station

?

No. The fares check rule is for when you are unsure of the appropriate routeing point. In the case of Farringdon, there is only one routeing point so it is certain which one is appropriate. If you were going from Leagrave to Leicester the appropriate route point should be obvious (Bedford), but if you were unsure (because there is more than one associated routeing point) you could use the fares check rule.

As I mentioned, I believe the Routeing Guide assumes there is always one appropriate routeing point (that may well have been true in 1996, though I don't happen to have a copy of NFM64 to test the theory).

Your argument that if there's only one RP then it must obviously be "appropriate" and that anyone that thinks otherwise must need their head examining ignores the fact that:....

I didn't say if 'anyone thinks otherwise', I said if 'anyone is unsure which of the one associated routeing point to use' they need their head examining.

- The "How to Use the National Routeing Guide" document has already explained that through trains and the shortest route are permitted routes, and thus there is not necessarily a need for a mapped route;

If you want to follow that line of thought, there is never a 'need' for a mapped route as there is always the shortest route and direct trains.

- a reasonable person could read the second half of the paragraph which I have quoted above and become unsure whether the sole RP is appropriate;

If someone is not bothering to read the document properly that is their problem.

- nowhere is it mentioned that there is always an appropriate routeing point;

I disagree.

....If you are unsure whether a particular routeing point for the origin station is
the correct one....

Furthermore, if it were intended that there were some/many journeys with no appropriate routeing points, instructions would have been provided to cover that eventuality. It is reasonable to therefore presume that such an eventuality was not considered as it was expected that every station would have one appropriate routeing point.

It is also reasonable to presume that if it was intended that all associated routeing points be tested by the fares check rule, then the instructions would say so.

- a reasonable person may want a bit more detail and so read "The National Routeing Guide in Detail":

Maybe, but, as we all must know by now, that section is littered with inaccuracies, contradictions and new rules mentioned nowhere else in the entire NRG.