Justine Greening to be moved in forthcoming cabinet reshuffle?

[Butts]

Problem with Boris island is that it would be awkward to get to from much of the UK. Remember that south of Manchester if you want to fly to most long haul destinations you have the choice of ground transport to Heathrow or Fly through Amsterdam with KLM. Heathrow is easily accessible by road (car/coach) from the M1 M3, M4 and M40 corridors, and there are relatively short coach/bus links from the SWML at Woking and GWML at Reading. At a stretch you could include the 724 from Watford, though going into London and HEX would probably be quicker.

Now to reach Boris Island would be an extra 1-2 hours travel for much of the UK outside of London. I can't see that going down too well unless BA instigate more Domestic flying

Are you discounting Birmingham - that has lots of spare capacity and good transport links

 

[starrymarkb]

Are you discounting Birmingham - that has lots of spare capacity and good transport links

It does, though is there the premium traffic to justify the range of routes?

 

[WatcherZero]

Construction industry press is today suggesting Grant Schapps as the next Transport Minister, hes got experience of the construction industry now (with many large construction projects on Dft agenda) and he has a pilot license so knows aviation.

 

[jimm]

All quotes bar the very last come from posts by Southern HRH

We certainly employee far more people in manufacturing than I believed

Then please do some research before posting such wildly innaccurate remarks.

On this point, I am assuming you are talking about easyJet

As others have worked out, no, I meant Ryanair.

And please don't play some game about it being a 'foreign' airline. The staff crewing flights out of Stansted at 6am don't live in dublin, do they? They don't pay their taxes in Dublin either. The parent group of my employer is a US company but I pay tax to the Inland Revenue, not the IRS. My employer pays national insurance, business rates, etc, in the UK, or aren't those factors enough to make me count as a 'British' job?

Prove that global warming is a real issue

Again, do some research. You could start here with a story from that leading green, tree-hugging journal, the Daily Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/9502543/Arctic-ice-melts-to-record-low-levels.html

If you are trying to suggest that what has happened to Arctic ice over the past 50 years is part of some long-term cycle, maybe this is food for thought

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/26/arctic-climate-change?intcmp=239

but probably not if you

sit in the "its a load of nonsense" camp

and

cannot be bothered to reply

when someone dares to question your claims.

The following link is to a map of Southwest London in 1930era, when Heathrow opened as an aerodrome, long before the second world war.
http://www.soundsurvey.org.uk/index....land_use/1259/

At the time, the area was rather rural and sparsely populated. The majority of people living there now were not there when it was built. The airport came before the people, therefore you point about blighting their lives, I find invalid. People living around Heathrow, a large amount whom rely on it for employment, moved there once it was already an established airport.

A bit economical with facts there. The grandly-titled Great West Aerodrome was a private airstrip used by Fairey for test flying and covered about 100 hectares (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_West_Aerodrome) by the time it was requisitioned by the Government (Fairey fought the Government into the 1960s for proper compensation for its land).

Heathrow now covers 1,227 ha/12 sq km (source, BAA's owner Ferrovial), so the airport has actually moved out towards a lot of built-up areas, including the village of Sipson, which would disappear under your precious third runway. As Sibbwineston, it appeared in the Domesday Book, published 1086, a little while before the Wright brothers came along, never mind Heathrow. London Underground did not spend lots of money in a depression at the start of the 1930s extending the Piccadilly Line out to Hounslow, all of five miles from Heathrow, because no-one lived there.

And the issue is not just about places close to the airport, it's about other places under the flightpath, including Justine Greening's constituency, which is Putney, also featured in the Domesday Book as Putelei.

I do believe that rail has a big part in the future of this country, hence why I am on this forum, however its not going to end aviation

Never said it would, just that there is plenty of evidence from Europe that high-speed rail will take lots of planes out of the sky. Eurostar/High Speed 1 took out plenty of flights between London and Paris. Much of what's left are connecting flights to Air France's long-haul routes. Do you seriously believe that given the choice between all the aggro involved in using airports these days, or getting on a high-speed train (unless DafT succeed in their apparent goal of making it an experience almost as unpleasant as flying), that people will fly in any great numbers?

I simply do not believe that putting ever more planes into the sky, wherever they fly from, and however many jobs they support, is the universal good that some posting here would have us believe.

And how will

business go elsewhere

if people want to fly to Britain? Please explain this. Are the airlines just going to give up on all the tourists who want to visit Britain, or the businessmen and women who want to buy things from our manufacturers? Oh silly me, I forgot that those manufacturers don't actually exist, like climate change, Arctic ice melt or rising sea levels, so everyone will want to fly to Frankfurt instead and East Anglia and Holland won't disappear into the sea.

@butts

Are you discounting Birmingham - that has lots of spare capacity and good transport links

And exactly the same problem as Heathrow, a large city at the end of the runway.

 

[WatcherZero]

Warsi did a Saturday newspaper interview to try and keep her job saying that she could bring the Conservative party the 'ethnic' and 'northern' vote.

 

[radamfi]

I'm not convinced by the need to have strong transport links to make an economy prosperous. For example, Norwich and Exeter are comfortably well off areas but are relatively remote and relatively awkward to get to. Maastricht and Groningen are very affluent but quite distant from Schiphol.

 

[SwindonPkwy]

Interesting report in the Independent on Sunday. It claims that a "world leading infrastructure firm" is assessing sites to the West of London to rival or replace Heathrow.

The link is here:

http://www.independent.co.uk/travel...rrunway-airport-west-of-heathrow-8100772.html

 

[WatcherZero]

Osborne on Andrew Marr this morning said Heathrow third runway was still an option so doesnt look like Greening won the battle after all.

 

[SwindonPkwy]

The article in the Independent on Sunday is not specific on location but could be, say, 20 miles up the road from Heathrow. I just have the feeling that the government will come down in favour of the third runway once they can demonstrate that none of the alternatives are viable.

 

[WestCoast]

I'm not convinced by the need to have strong transport links to make an economy prosperous. For example, Norwich and Exeter are comfortably well off areas but are relatively remote and relatively awkward to get to. Maastricht and Groningen are very affluent but quite distant from Schiphol.

Well, it all depends on what type of economic strengths you're trying to foster and develop. Places with large populations generally need lots of economic activity to create much needed jobs, while areas with smaller populations can probably survive with fewer industries and traditional wealth.

Look at Norway, it's a highly prosperous country with some of the highest living standards in the world. Yet it's spread out and rail/road travel between population centres can be slow, with many preferring to use the relatively large air network. It has a small population and abundant natural resources such as oil, as well as a strong shipping industry - these factors along with strong fiscal management have made Norway into the wealthy country it is today. That's not to say the Norway model would work in countries like the UK or Germany, which both have hordes more people and less natural resources.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Germany France and The Netherlands have one Big Hub be it Frankfurt, CGD or Schipol - why should the UK be any different ?

Agree with all but Germany - it has two big hubs, Frankfurt and Munich and yes the latter is very much a hub of world travel.

if people want to fly to Britain? Please explain this. Are the airlines just going to give up on all the tourists who want to visit Britain, or the businessmen and women who want to buy things from our manufacturers? Oh silly me, I forgot that those manufacturers don't actually exist, like climate change, Arctic ice melt or rising sea levels, so everyone will want to fly to Frankfurt instead and East Anglia and Holland won't disappear into the sea.

Britain won't grind to halt because of a lack of air capacity, BUT the current trend is interesting. We all agree that international trade is important and no one can argue that China is now a world power and that Latin America is a rising market. By trade, it's not about the Far East and Latin America buying our mass market goods, it's about them buying expertise, financial services, service industry items yada yada - basically things that we can do well, but they can't. Also, our businesses tapping into their growing wealth with partnerships e.t.c.

Heathrow has considerably weaker direct air links to both China and Latin America than Amsterdam, Paris and Frankfurt. It's clear that the lack of capacity in recent years has prevented new routes from being started. For example, Amsterdam has 6 non-stop routes to China against Heathrow's 3. Frankfurt serves 9 cities in Latin America compared to 4 at Heathrow, with higher frequencies on most routes from Frankfurt. It's even more interesting when you consider that the cities of Frankfurt and Amsterdam are tiny compared to London, although they do of course process many connecting passengers.

Despite being an aviation enthusiast, I don't necessarily see 'more, more, more' as a good thing. However, I do think that easing congestion at Heathrow by adding capacity will have to happen at some point. The focus should be on easing congestion in the skies and around the airfield (making LHR a better airport) and not increasing traffic by a large amount. Reducing the amount of time aircraft have to spend in holding patters (and this is excessive at LHR) also holds an environmental benefit both in terms of noise and air pollution.

When it comes to transport, Europe is perhaps the only developed continent which is taking green transport issues seriously. North America is a vast continent of well over 500 million people and yet there is an overwhelming reliance on air travel for practically every journey which a traveller considers too time comsuming in the car or on a once-a-day bus. Rail is just not an option in the vast majority of cases and it would probably take the best part of a century to change this.

 

[Butts]

Osborne on Andrew Marr this morning said Heathrow third runway was still an option so doesnt look like Greening won the battle after all.

Never mind a third runway we need four to compete with Frankfurt or 6 for Schipol.

Aviation is the future - lets start spending some of that APD now

 

[SwindonPkwy]

I don't necessarily see 'more, more, more' as a good thing. However, I do think that easing congestion at Heathrow by adding capacity will have to happen at some point. The focus should be on easing congestion in the skies and around the airfield (making LHR a better airport) and not increasing traffic by a large amount. Reducing the amount of time aircraft have to spend in holding patterns (and this is excessive at LHR) also holds an environmental benefit both in terms of noise and air pollution.

I agree with this completely. The ironic thing is that if a way could be found to build both a third and fourth runway, conditions could be set by which residents in West London have longer periods of respite through runway rotation. Of course cynics would say that, over time, all four runways would become fully utilised. However, a condition similar to 'no 2nd runway at LGW for a specified period' could be a fixed condition. Four runways really come into their own when you take into account exceptional conditions due to weather or ground incidents.

Yes, of course, it won't happen but momentum does seem to be moving towards the third runway at least.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I would like to return to the original title of this thread and note that the answer to the title of the thread should be provided in the next 24 hours.

 

[WatcherZero]

Early word coming in, Welsh Secretary has resigned to fight HS2, Gove possibly moving from Education to head up the election campaign to be replaced by Grantt Shapps (hundreds of thousands of teachers will be celebrating Goves exit!).

George Osborne presenting Paralympics medal was booed by nearly the entire 80,000 audience. Not surprising as last week it was revealed his personal approval rating had fallen even further to minus 26%!

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2012-09-03/george-osborne-booed-at-olympic-stadium/

 

[SwindonPkwy]

Early word coming in, Welsh Secretary has resigned to fight HS2.

Is this MP's constituency in the Chilterns?

With regard to Osborne, I am no fan, but has there been a 'popular' Chancellor in the last 20 to 30 years? I think his position is safe because DC has no choice but to stick with Plan A. Plenty of scope to tinker around the edges though.

 

[starrymarkb]

Is this MP's constituency in the Chilterns?

With regard to Osborne, I am no fan, but has there been a 'popular' Chancellor in the last 20 to 30 years? I think his position is safe because DC has no choice but to stick with Plan A. Plenty of scope to tinker around the edges though.

MP for Chesham and Amersham

 

[WatcherZero]

Is this MP's constituency in the Chilterns?

With regard to Osborne, I am no fan, but has there been a 'popular' Chancellor in the last 20 to 30 years? I think his position is safe because DC has no choice but to stick with Plan A. Plenty of scope to tinker around the edges though.

Brown by contrast was at the Aquatics center today and reportedly recieved a standing ovation from the audience.

 

[PR1Berske]

Margaret Thatcher (1979)

1] 1979-1981 - Norman Fowler (Minister of Transport)
2] Jan 81 - Sept 81 - Norman Fowler (SoS for Transport)
3] Sept 81 - June 83 - David Howell (SoS)
4] June 83 - Oct 83 - Tom King (SoS)
5] Oct 83 - May 86 - Nicholas Ridley (SoS)
6] May 86 - June 87 - John Moore (SoS)
7] June 87 - July 89 - Paul Channon (SoS)
8] July 89 - Nov 90 - Cecil Parkinson (SoS)

John Major (1990)

1] Nov 90 - Apr 92 - Malcolm Rifkind (SoS)
2] Apr 92 - Jul 94 - John MacGregor (SoS)
3] Jul 94 - Jul 95 - Brian Mawhinney (SoS)
4] July 95 - May 97 - Sir George Young (SoS)

Tony Blair (1997)

1] May 97 - July 1998 - Gavin Strang (Minister for Transport)
2] July 98 - May 99 - John Reid (Mins.)
3] May 99 - July 99 - Helen Liddell (Mins.)
4] July 99 - June 2001 - Lord Macdonald of Tradeston (Mins.)
5] June 01 - May 2002 - John Spellar (Mins.)
6] May 02 - May 06 - Alistair Darling (SoS)
7] May 06 - June 07 - Douglas Alexander (SoS)

Gordon Brown (2007)

1] June 07 - Oct 08 - Ruth Kelly (SoS)
2] Oct 08 - June 09 - Geoff Hoon (SoS)
3] June 09 - May 10 - Lord Adonis (SoS)

David Cameron (2010)

1] May 10 - Oct 11 - Philip Hammond (SoS)
2] Oct 11 to date - Justine Greening (SoS)

ITV News is reporting that tonight's reshuffle will see Patrick McLouglin moved to SoS at Transport, making him the 18th SoS in 20 years.

 

[Butts]

Brown by contrast was at the Aquatics center today and reportedly recieved a standing ovation from the audience.

Were the North Koreans competing ? :roll:

 

[WatcherZero]

Greening didnt honour her promise to resign if she was moved, shes demoted to International Development, the ever absent Villiers is promoted from rail minister to Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. Boris Johnson has already attacked Camerons reshuffle as a plot to build Heathrow runway three. Our new Transport minister is the former chief whip (Cameron obvisouly wants a loyal man in the job!), from Derbyshire background in agriculture and mining before entering local government.

IDS refused to be budged from Work and Pensions, refusing to take up the post of Justice Secretary. Cameron wasnt strong enough to move him despite his resistance (Treasury wanted him out because they said he wasnt cutting benefits fast enough), brings back the man or mouse accusation of Davis.

 

[Mojo]

I'm sorry, but whether global warming or not exists is a bit of a red herring in my eyes. Real concerns about the noise and other localised air pollution is the main objection from most of those anti-Heathrow expansion rather than any serious concerns about climate change. Those such as Greenpeace might be vocal, but from what I can see, the majority of objectors don't fall into this camp.

 

[Steamdemon]

Thank goodness Justine Greening was demoted. And Theresa Villers... Wether the new transport minister Patrick McLoughlin decides to review the WCML Franchise debacle is up to him. I'm kinda hoping he does.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Construction industry press is today suggesting Grant Schapps as the next Transport Minister, hes got experience of the construction industry now (with many large construction projects on Dft agenda) and he has a pilot license so knows aviation.

I think that they made that specific comment from the point of view of their own industry connections, as you pointed out in your posting.

 

[WatcherZero]

He ended up Party Chairman anyway, while charismatic he didnt get off to a great start on todays Daily Politics.

 

[Oswyntail]

Thank goodness Justine Greening was demoted. And Theresa Villers... Wether the new transport minister Patrick McLoughlin decides to review the WCML Franchise debacle is up to him. I'm kinda hoping he does.

This does add an awful lot to the discussion:roll:. The two removed ministers at least managed to understand most of the subject matter, and, imho, were doing quite well, certainly better than most recent Transport ministers.. It also is something of a moot point whether there has been a "debacle". Would you care to expand on your thought processes.

 

[Steamdemon]

This does add an awful lot to the discussion:roll:. The two removed ministers at least managed to understand most of the subject matter, and, imho, were doing quite well, certainly better than most recent Transport ministers.. It also is something of a moot point whether there has been a "debacle". Would you care to expand on your thought processes.

I'm talking about the need to change the bidding system, currently the highest bidder wins, but what the rail industry needs is a bidding process based on how realistic the bidder's targets are.

 

[Pen Mill]

This does add an awful lot to the discussion:roll:. The two removed ministers at least managed to understand most of the subject matter, and, imho, were doing quite well, certainly better than most recent Transport ministers.. It also is something of a moot point whether there has been a "debacle". Would you care to expand on your thought processes.

I agree ,it is a moot point.
One faction more than any other has created this "debacle"

However , and I think Greening was doing fine and showed quite a lot of bottle, we are now in the realms of " nobody's to blame "
The new transport secretariat can't be held to blame, the judicial review is impartial.
It makes me wonder a lot about the reshuffle !

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm talking about the need to change the bidding system, currently the highest bidder wins, but what the rail industry needs is a bidding process based on how realistic the bidder's targets are.

So you think that changing the ministers if going to radically change the way that we let franchises? I'm still in convinced of the need for much in the way of reform seeing as we've only had two franchises go under due to financial failings. One of which had as much to do with the parent company going under as it did with overbidding and the second which got hit by the worst recession since the 1920s (though NX almost certainly did overbid seeing as even without a recession they'd probably have been struggling).

I'd much rather have kept Greening and Villiers exactly where they were.

 

[12CSVT]

Greening out, McLoughlin in - all that has changed is that one idiot replaces another.

It is somewhat bizarre that McLoughlin supports a third Heathrow runway, yet is scared of flying.

 

[WatcherZero]

Greening out, McLoughlin in - all that has changed is that one idiot replaces another.

It is somewhat bizarre that McLoughlin supports a third Heathrow runway, yet is scared of flying.

And a Derbyshire MP against MML electrification!