First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[F Great Eastern]

Understatement of the century.

I might get on a Virgin train and just reverse my decision to pay my fare.

I try not to work myself up about it too much!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think VT are paying some degree of price for poor train selection.

But First will be using the self-same trains, so it is not a differentiator.
Otherwise as a regular VT user from Chester I generally agree with your views.
The timetabling issues work both ways. DfT/NR mostly invented it, not VT. Chester benefitted greatly, Penrith didn't.
The business plan discriminates against smaller stations like Penrith (but they get a better service from TP to compensate).
All you are really left to compare with is the ambience of the service, which I happen to like. Certainly not bad enough to kick them out.
But it's an open competition, and apparently First got a higher score than Virgin.
Not much you can do about that.
However losing Virgin from rail is a bad move for the DfT and the industry, because they are "different".

 

[snail]

But thats not it.
Its the 3+2 bus type seats crammed in to make less legroom.

Is it true that they are getting the people that designed the Merseyrail 142 seating to install the new seats?

Do you think we should have a separate thread for the best rumours?

 

[driver_m]

No. It won't. This is a pointless petition in respect of trying to overturn the decision. As I stated earlier, there is only one way that it can be overturned as part of a public procurement and there is as yet, no sign of that happening. As long as the procurement process has been run fairly, the DfT have nothing to worry about.

If it was pointless, then why are so many people signing it? It is sometimes worth chasing a lost cause.

I'll declare an interest by saying I work for VT and yes I've signed it, no I'm not brainwashed, no I haven't been asked/told to sign it and I have no preconceptions about First, seeing as the existing companies they run, have such varying opinions about them. I want to stay VT for the simple reason that I don't see how the First plan adds up towards the end of the franchise, and that I like working for VT.

 

[The Prisoner]

But First will be using the self-same trains, so it is not a differentiator.
Otherwise as a regular VT user from Chester I generally agree with your views.
The timetabling issues work both ways. DfT/NR mostly invented it, not VT. Chester benefitted greatly, Penrith didn't.
The business plan discriminates against smaller stations like Penrith (but they get a better service from TP to compensate).
All you are really left to compare with is the ambience of the service, which I happen to like. Certainly not bad enough to kick them out.
But it's an open competition, and apparently First got a higher score than Virgin.
Not much you can do about that.
However losing Virgin from rail is a bad move for the DfT and the industry, because they are "different".

Strangely not all of the FTP Man Airport to Glasgow and Edinburgh services stop at either Penrith and/or Oxenholme which I find just odd! One even sails straight through Lancaster!

Anyway good to find broad agreement from this part of the world.

With apologies if it is a sweeping statement it appears most of the people who are of the "get over it, First won" opinion are either First lovers or don't travel regularly on the WCML. I am prepared to be open minded to First, but I think the DfT are losing an innovative company in Virgin. I would also argue that taking up the poisoned chalice of the WCML in 97, 98, whenever it was, is a little different to running...well...anything else. If I'm wrong I'm sure the pedant brigade will let me know!

The Virgin Trains petition is now up to 53k (up 6k in the last hour since I signed it - probably on the back of VT mailing the link out today!). I hate to be a bore...but would any other TOC's punters be so bothered. Maybe...just maybe...we have a point?!

 

[snail]

He doesn't have any reason to hate First, but Branson and BA do go way back to the 1980s and yes, BA didn't always treat the fledgling Virgin as it perhaps should have (look up " BA dirty tricks" if you're interested).

They did get pally though when they were colluding with BA to fix prices between 2004 and 2006. The only reason Virgin didn't get fined was because they admitted what they had done to the OFT before it got any worse.

I would be happy for Virgin to have retained the franchise, but they didn't. Let's move on.

 

[YorkshireBear]

If it was pointless, then why are so many people signing it? It is sometimes worth chasing a lost cause.

I'll declare an interest by saying I work for VT and yes I've signed it, no I'm not brainwashed, no I haven't been asked/told to sign it and I have no preconceptions about First, seeing as the existing companies they run, have such varying opinions about them. I want to stay VT for the simple reason that I don't see how the First plan adds up towards the end of the franchise, and that I like working for VT.

These people also watch X-factor in their millions and that is fairly pointless.... Just because people sign it does not make it a just cause.

So what is your opinion on all this spin your company is putting out, which most of is lies?
This is the reason for most of the aggression towards them on this forum, as i have said if Virgin just went about it quietly, asked for the review and hadn't made all these tantrum noises in the press and then gone on to told lies, we would probably have had a lot more sympathy.

 

[snail]

With apologies if it is a sweeping statement it appears most of the people who are of the "get over it, First won" opinion are either First lovers or don't travel regularly on the WCML.

Well I'm not one of them. I travel on the WCML regularly, on both Virgin and TPE, and all this gushing pride in Virgin is rapidly changing my attitude about them.

I am prepared to be open minded to First, but I think the DfT are losing an innovative company in Virgin.

I struggle to think what innovations they have introduced recently. Nothing has been said either about what they would have done so differently in the new franchise. All I've seen are prices increase, peak availability become overpriced and a scaling back of services like the onboard shop and 1st class off-peak.

The Virgin Trains petition is now up to 53k (up 6k in the last hour since I signed it - probably on the back of VT mailing the link out today!). I hate to be a bore...but would any other TOC's punters be so bothered. Maybe...just maybe...we have a point?!

So they are popular. Wow.

 

[YorkshireBear]

With apologies if it is a sweeping statement it appears most of the people who are of the "get over it, First won" opinion are either First lovers or don't travel regularly on the WCML. I am prepared to be open minded to First, but I think the DfT are losing an innovative company in Virgin.

Yes that is fairly sweeping... I have no love of First i think they are a good company just as i think virgin are.
The 'get over it first won' has come from the paddy that branson has had publicly and also the lies to the press. So none of the above.

 

[All Line Rover]

I struggle to think what innovations they have introduced recently. Nothing has been said either about what they would have done so differently in the new franchise. All I've seen are prices increase, peak availability become overpriced and a scaling back of services like the onboard shop and 1st class off-peak.

Agreed. I would only sign that petition if Virgin said "If we win the franchise, here's what we'll do," and I was impressed by what they said. But they haven't done that. Instead, they've just drawn up a list of qualitative, debatable and sometimes frankly untrue comments about their operation.

Basically, what will Virgin do better than First? Apparently, nothing, as they haven't said anything definitive. (Unless there is some rule preventing them from disclosing their plans).

 

[WatcherZero]

VT ordered the Pendolino and set the engineering spec (No they dont own them, no franchise does they arrange a ROSCO to own them), a joint committee of SRA-Virgin-Dft-Angel specified the layout. All those people who complain about the Dft specifying the IEP are also now complaining that Virgin specified the Pendolinos which shows their just hypocrites.

 

[northwichcat]

Strangely not all of the FTP Man Airport to Glasgow and Edinburgh services stop at either Penrith and/or Oxenholme which I find just odd! One even sails straight through Lancaster!

They don't exactly have the capacity to stop at more stations and pick up more passengers.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Well I'm not one of them. I travel on the WCML regularly, on both Virgin and TPE, and all this gushing pride in Virgin is rapidly changing my attitude about them.I

I had no problem with Virgin either until recently and preferred to use them over the East coast to Scotland though they had their faults. I didn't mind if First or Virgin won the bid at the end of the day, my problem is more with the way Virgin have acted since they lost the franchise like many here, and the impact it's going to have on the bigger picture.

Now from being someone who had no problem with Virgin my mind has been changed and I hope they are never back in the rail industry after what has happened, they need to accept what has happened and not create so much of a fuss, accept the decision or if they went about it in a professional way I'd have no problem.

They are not the first operator in such situation to have lost the franchise and I'm sure they won't be the last. They are the most childish losers though.

 

[northwichcat]

Almost at 52k now. Looks like there a quite a few of us who don't want to get over it. This could start getting very uncomfortable at DaFT.

No. It won't. This is a pointless petition in respect of trying to overturn the decision. As I stated earlier, there is only one way that it can be overturned as part of a public procurement and there is as yet, no sign of that happening. As long as the procurement process has been run fairly, the DfT have nothing to worry about.

They only have to consider it for debate it in parliament if the threshold numbers are reached. If Ms Villiers made a public statement about who owns the Pendolinos and who paid for the WCML upgrade then public opinion would probably change when the public realise it's not Richard Branson who funded a multi-billion pound upgrade of the WCML and the stock used on it.

 

[F Great Eastern]

VT ordered the Pendolino and set the engineering spec (No they dont own them, no franchise does they arrange a ROSCO to own them), a joint committee of SRA-Virgin-Dft-Angel specified the layout. All those people who complain about the Dft specifying the IEP are also now complaining that Virgin specified the Pendolinos which shows their just hypocrites.

The only problem I have with the IEP is that it's took a crazy amount of time to bloody make the order, the start of the tendering process was started over five years ago and talked about in 2005, yet we only had a contract signed a few weeks ago.

Meanwhile the GWML and other lines are overcrowded simply because the DFT won't order stock, but according to what I read on Facebook today, the Virgin fanboys are claiming that the reason the GWML is overcrowded is First won't order any new stock for it, neglecting the facts that it is the government who continually don't deliver the rolling stock they said they would in the time they said they would.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They only have to consider it for debate it in parliament if the threshold numbers are reached. If Ms Villiers made a public statement about who owns the Pendolinos and who paid for the WCML upgrade then public opinion would probably change when the public realise it's not Richard Branson who funded a multi-billion pound upgrade of the WCML and the stock used on it.

Wellt he government silence has been deafening, but then again with Parliament in recess who cares about the running of the country.

 

[WatcherZero]

From here: http://www.virgin.com/travel/news/50-reasons-to-sign-the-virgin-trains-e-petition

My comments in red

....

Wow, you have issues buddy.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They only have to consider it for debate it in parliament if the threshold numbers are reached. If Ms Villiers made a public statement about who owns the Pendolinos and who paid for the WCML upgrade then public opinion would probably change when the public realise it's not Richard Branson who funded a multi-billion pound upgrade of the WCML and the stock used on it.

First are telling their shareholders their only going to invest £29m over the length of the franchise mostly in stations! The rest comes from Network Rail and the Dft paying track access and leasing charges!

 

[YorkshireBear]

First are telling their shareholders their only going to invest £29m over the length of the franchise mostly in stations! The rest comes from Network Rail and the Dft paying track access and leasing charges!

Where have you got this info from. If true very concerning.
Are you saying 29million invested in stations over 15 years or in everything over the 15 year franchise?

 

[driver_m]

These people also watch X-factor in their millions and that is fairly pointless.... Just because people sign it does not make it a just cause.

So what is your opinion on all this spin your company is putting out, which most of is lies?
This is the reason for most of the aggression towards them on this forum, as i have said if Virgin just went about it quietly, asked for the review and hadn't made all these tantrum noises in the press and then gone on to told lies, we would probably have had a lot more sympathy.

If I was anyone in charge at VT I would fight tooth and nail to get the win, not to be the plucky underdog who lost yet again. Let's face it, the way this government u turns all the time then why not try it. I'd hardly call the tweet team pr spin either, there are real people in there who may wonder what is happening to their jobs.

And why belittle x factor? It changes one persons life for the better, admittedly Simon cowell but still the votes go in.

 

[Manchester77]

I've noticed on twitter that some celebrities have been tweeting to sign the petition. On my timeline so far noticed mo farrah and rio Ferdinand

 

[junglejames]

Is it true that they are getting the people that designed the Merseyrail 142 seating to install the new seats?

Do you think we should have a separate thread for the best rumours?

Is it as good as that? I often wondered if it would be hard wooden seats, perhaps like you used to get in the old 3rd class hundreds of years ago!

 

[F Great Eastern]

The sick poster that was created is now being discussed on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/virgintrains/posts/494505150578069

 

[Nym]

With apologies if it is a sweeping statement it appears most of the people who are of the "get over it, First won" opinion are either First lovers or don't travel regularly on the WCML.

Do resent that slightly, I very regularly travel on the South and North ends of the WCML radiating from Manchester and Wigan, yet I'm of this opinion, have made this very clear. First have won, if you want to fight it, do it through the proper, very well advertised channels, if not, sod off.

And if you look back in this thread, you'll find that I'm very much NOT a fan of First Group in any way, I don't like their group recruitment methods, I don't like GM Buses North for several reasons, I don't like FCC's pricing structure, nor do I like the state of TPE.

 

[junglejames]

Strangely not all of the FTP Man Airport to Glasgow and Edinburgh services stop at either Penrith and/or Oxenholme which I find just odd! One even sails straight through Lancaster!

Anyway good to find broad agreement from this part of the world.

With apologies if it is a sweeping statement it appears most of the people who are of the "get over it, First won" opinion are either First lovers or don't travel regularly on the WCML. I am prepared to be open minded to First, but I think the DfT are losing an innovative company in Virgin. I would also argue that taking up the poisoned chalice of the WCML in 97, 98, whenever it was, is a little different to running...well...anything else. If I'm wrong I'm sure the pedant brigade will let me know!

The Virgin Trains petition is now up to 53k (up 6k in the last hour since I signed it - probably on the back of VT mailing the link out today!). I hate to be a bore...but would any other TOC's punters be so bothered. Maybe...just maybe...we have a point?!

Just because it stands at 53K, doesnt mean they have a point. As has been pointed out, some of the people signing it have absolutely no idea what is happening. Some are signing it because they think the trains are being replaced. Some think Virgin have splashed out millions upon millions of pounds of their own money upgrading the line and buying trains. There are those that think First are always late. Those that think staff will now be worse etc etc. Nope, there is no point.

Also, Virgin never took on a poisoned chalice. Virgin actually made it worse before it got better, and thats not down to all the infrastructure works.

I myself wasnt bothered beforehand who won, but I can now see that the First bid seems to be slightly better. Considering Virgin have done little to deserve to keep the franchise, then why should they? Overall they have been no better than an average franchise. Its not like they are a GNER. In fact, there are many bad things about them.
Yes they are 'fresh' to the extent that they do extravagant promotion of themselves. But I dont care about extravagant promotion. The trains are nothing fresh and amazing. So they said they would introduce tilting trains. Big wow. Anybody could have said and done that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

VT ordered the Pendolino and set the engineering spec (No they dont own them, no franchise does they arrange a ROSCO to own them), a joint committee of SRA-Virgin-Dft-Angel specified the layout. All those people who complain about the Dft specifying the IEP are also now complaining that Virgin specified the Pendolinos which shows their just hypocrites.

No hypocrites at all.
1- We dont really know what the interior will be fully like on IEPs. Most could well be specified by TOCs.
2- The DFT ordered the IEP. Therefore what has so far been specified will be down to them. Pendys were ordered by Virgin. So they are no doubt responsible for a lot of the layout. They will be responsible for the interior. They were responsible for saying yes to the design of the train.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Latest post from Facebook:

You get what you pay for and I would rather travel on a train that is safe and clean and on time. First trains cant do what it says on the tin. It is as simple as that.

I notice the mention about safety, I hope that the earlier mentioned poster is not making people think that First is not safe, because if that is the case then the guy who created it could be in very hot water.

 

[12CSVT]

The sick poster that was created is now being discussed on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/virgintrains/posts/494505150578069

Obviously somebody forgot what happened to 390033. In reality, accidents can affect any TOC are not necessarily the fault of the TOC.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Obviously somebody forgot what happened to 390033.

The discussion about the poster has now been hidden from the Facebook page but still shows from the URL.

 

[jon0844]

Do you think we should have a separate thread for the best rumours?

Yes, but with a rule that everyone must post dead seriously so the Virgin lovers will believe it all.

 

[junglejames]

Latest post from Facebook:


I notice the mention about safety, I hope that the earlier mentioned poster is not making people think that First is not safe, because if that is the case then the guy who created it could be in very hot water.

Im getting fed up with those messages on FB. Ive stopped looking.
On time? What like Virgin have such brilliant performance figures right now.

FB is proving to be very scary. DFT should just laugh at this epetition.
Scary.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, but with a rule that everyone must post dead seriously so the Virgin lovers will believe it all.

LOL. I like it. They probably already believe it though!!

 

[jon0844]

It's so annoying that people abuse the freedoms we have in this country, such as being able to have petitions that really can get a Government to look at something.

Look at the people suffering around the world and then look at the nonsense that people create petitions or Facebook pages for.

What gets me is that the people who are merely jumping on the bandwagon because their favourite celeb on Twitter recommended it probably consider themselves to be like the people who died for their cause in years gone by.

Ultimately such crap will one day mean we'll probably lose these facilities due to the abuse and the fact nobody will take anything seriously.

 

[RPI]

Have you noticed the ratio of negative virgin comments have increased over the last few days though? people are finally seeing through the BS.