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First win Intercity West Coast franchise

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All Line Rover

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OK - say this petition gets to the House of Lords. Let's briefly consider it:

Petition said:
"We the undersigned urge the government to reconsider the decision to award the West Coast Mainline franchise to FirstGroup.

The West Coast Mainline's current value is thanks to millions of pounds of investment and commitment from Virgin Trains - they're not perfect, none are - but they have delivered a reliable service for 15 years and turned the line around."

Firstly, the millions of pounds of investment did not come from Virgin. It came from the taxpayer. Secondly, Virgin have only been running a "reliable service" since VHF started around 3 years ago. Even since then, they lag near the bottom of the punctuality tables, even thought they have some of the newest infrastructure and rolling stock.

Petition said:
FirstGroup consistently rate amongst the worst of the train operators in passenger satisfaction surveys - they should show improvements in their existing services before being able to bid on more.

Not true. Looking at some other First franchises, ScotRail achieve 89% passenger satisfaction (2% below Virgin) and TP Express 88% (3% below Virgin), despite both TOCs operating mostly commuter services. These are very impressive figures.

FGW and Virgin Trains are not comparable. FGW operates a large number of commuter services and branch lines. Satisfaction on commuter services is understandably lower, as is the case with most commuter TOCs in the South East (e.g. SWT, Southeastern, Southern, etc...). The lower satisfaction on FGW's commuter services skews their overall passenger satisfaction figures. Virgin, on the other hand, operate a flagship route with some of the newest rolling stock around - it is no surprise that their passenger satisfaction levels are high.

A more appropriate comparison would be Virgin Trains and First Hull Trains. First Hull Trains achieves higher passenger satisfaction than Virgin.

Petition said:
Any previous time Virgin have lost a bid in a rail tender the winner has failed to deliver promised plan and revenue - the East Coast is still under Government ownership.

Not true. CrossCountry has done rather well in terms of reliability. There is no evidence to suggest that Virgin would have done any better.

Petition said:
The Government should look at more than the highest bidder - look what happened with G4S at London 2012.

In light of the above, I wonder what conclusion the House of Lords would reach?
 
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MidnightFlyer

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Not a single quantitative reason is provided which explains why Virgin should keep the franchise as opposed to First. Yet tens of thousands have signed a petition.

What a load of absolute balderdash.

12. Every long distance operator tries to copy us.
20. We think outside the box and dare to go where others fear to tread.
44. We build our franchises on growth not cuts.

(That's just the first three I saw.)

What a load of twaddle. It is amazingly desperate and stinks to High Heaven of vanity.

If this petition gets 100,000; what looks a dead cert, what will happen? Retendering? Can the 28 August signing date be bought forward?
 

All Line Rover

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44. We build our franchises on growth not cuts.

And that is exactly what First plan on doing! There entire business model is based around growth. (Overoptimistic growth, in my opinion, but if it leads to cheaper fares for flexible passengers I'll have no complaints).
 

Geezertronic

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It was all Railtrack's fault, eh? I think if Virgin are going to claim credit for things that others achieved, then they should also take the blame for other's failures.

Virgin, according to their website, are fully responsible for the introduction of the trains. That must include the toilets, no?

Well I'm not arguing about it but as far as I am concerned, your list is just as bad as those who have signed the petition :D
 

All Line Rover

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The Independent said:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-uturn-on-virgin-trains-decision-8073118.html

Celebrities are backing a campaign to force a U-turn on the Government's decision to strip Virgin Trains of its West Coast main line franchise.

The Apprentice presenter Lord Sugar, celebrity chef Jamie Oliver and pop star Ronan Keating are among those supporting an e-petition to try to force a House of Commons debate on the decision.

Last week, the Government announced that Virgin, which has operated West Coast since 1997, had lost out to transport company FirstGroup in the battle to run a new 13-year West Coast franchise which will start in December.

Virgin boss Sir Richard Branson dubbed the franchise bidding process "insane" and has cast doubt on whether Virgin will ever bid for a franchise again.

He also expressed concerns that FirstGroup might not be able to fulfil its franchise commitments.

Comedian Eddie Izzard also lent his support to the petition, which now has more than 32,000 signatories.

Sir Richard said: "This is a great boost for everyone at Virgin Trains to see the level of support for us and the frustration at the Government's decision.

"It is clear customers want the decision reconsidered and Parliament should have the opportunity to debate this before any contract is signed, which is planned for August 28."

I wonder if they're being paid? :roll: I smell a rat.
 

F Great Eastern

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And that is exactly what First plan on doing! There entire business model is based around growth. (Overoptimistic growth, in my opinion, but if it leads to cheaper fares for flexible passengers I'll have no complaints).

Thats the irony of the whole thing, Virgin on one hand are spinning to the public that they won't make cuts and First will, whilst on the other hand their protest to the DFT is based on too much growth.
 

williamn

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Even with people handing out leaflets etc, I still think most people wouldn't care about their TOC. It takes an amount of effort to find the petition, sign it and then confirm it via the email sent. I don't think it should be just dismissed as 'stupid passengers'.

Virgin are good at PR and Branson is famous, but I still think this many people wanting to keep a TOC is something unusual.
 

F Great Eastern

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Even with people handing out leaflets etc, I still think most people wouldn't care about their TOC. It takes an amount of effort to find the petition, sign it and then confirm it via the email sent. I don't think it should be just dismissed as 'stupid passengers'.

Virgin are good at PR and Branson is famous, but I still think this many people wanting to keep a TOC is something unusual.

I agree but if this gets overturned as I said, every other TOC who loses out on price is going to say the other one overbid, it's easy to say and do, you'll have every bloody franchise award being disputed going forward if the government change their mind on this which will throw the whole system into chaos.

FGE lost the franchise themselves and were not even on the list of shortlisted bidders despite winning several awards in the prior 12 months, they thought about going to court but in the end dropped it because they felt that it wouldn't be the best course of action. They didn't moan as much as Branson though.
 

HH

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FGE lost the franchise themselves and were not even on the list of shortlisted bidders despite winning several awards in the prior 12 months, they thought about going to court but in the end dropped it because they felt that it wouldn't be the best course of action. They didn't moan as much as Branson though.

The problem is the burden of proof. How do you show that the award is not fair? And that one definitely wasn't, because not only were GE excluded at the PQ stage (which is a somewhat subjective marking of quality), but First were banned from using GE staff on the bid after buying GB Rail - and they followed this instruction to the letter, which meant that all the work that had been done by GE never got used.

Oh, and does anyone thing that SRA made the right decision there after what NX did to the franchise?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Well I'm not arguing about it but as far as I am concerned, your list is just as bad as those who have signed the petition :D

Well that was the point...
 
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PFX

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Just because there is a petition signed by 100,000 or 100,000,000 people, this won't change the outcome. Virgin have a set amount of time (10 day standing period) in which they can apply to challenge the result in court.

If they choose to do so, the outcome will either be that Virgin's appeal is upheld and the process is run again or that the the court rules against Virgin and nothing changes. Given Virgin's previous statement regarding the cost of future tenders, I don't expect to see Virgin in court any time soon, though stranger things have happened.

There is speculation and argument for and against both TOCs and it looks like First is here to stay for the time being. Only time will tell what they will or will not offer and how services will develop, if at all but I'm sure this thread will roll on for a while yet.
 

DarloRich

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From here: http://www.virgin.com/travel/news/50-reasons-to-sign-the-virgin-trains-e-petition

My comments in red

1. We have transformed the West Coast Mainline, from a struggling relic to the most frequent long-distance service in Europe. (London - Manchester and London - Birmingham, both every 20 minutes).I think some other chaps might have had something to do with that! All those Virgin Trains track maintenance people do such a good job! :roll:

2. We’re not just a Train company, we’re a customer service company that runs trains. What does this mean?

3. We care about our staff and our customers. Good - But every company says this

4. We have the fastest trains and we’re getting quicker. We've slashed journey times - Manchester is now two hours eight minutes from London, down from two hours 30 minutes. See point 1

5. We believe that an investment in your staff is an investment in the future. See point 3

6. Best for value for money. Subjective. Measured against what?

7. Best rated staff. Good - but see point 6

8. Best for customer satisfaction. Good but see point 6 - The customer is always right!

9. We'd invest more in the new franchise than anyone else.Figures?

10. We have stuck with the franchise through thick and thin, never walking away. WOW! how much did the compnay make out of the managment era or out of the franchise in total? I am sure you stayed for altruistic reasons

11. We listen to customers and always try to improve. See point 3

12. Every long distance operator tries to copy us. YOU say so. First seemed to win with another idea

13. We were the first to give its customers internet booking. Well done. BR were the first to give people the HST - should they keep the franchise?

14. We were the first to give its customers single journeys ticketing. See point 12

15. We give customers higher compensation when things do go wrong. But until you do it is like getting blood out of a stone!

16. Our staff are passionate about great customer service. Your staff are great and I assume First will keep them!

17. We've invested more in new trains than any other operator. HMMMMMMMM did you? Did you really? I guess they arent leased then or the costs covered by the government. My mistake!

18. The Virgin brand is a byword for quality across the globe.the brand is WHY people want you back. They associate First with crap buses and Virgin with fun exciting things!

19. We have staff who love their jobs and it shows in everything they do.And First staff (or anyone else working) doesnt love thier job?

20. We think outside the box and dare to go where others fear to tread. and?????????? what does this mean?

21. We love taking you around the country and want to keep doing it!and making a decent profit. Dont dress it up as a service!

22. 15 years ago people called it Mission Impossible, we read it as I’m possible.I think the people who designed and delivered the WCML upgrade kind of thought it was mission possible!

23. You are as much a part of Virgin Trains as we are. Bullsh*t - we are passengers to be millked for profit

24. We were the first train company to win an Investors in People award.Good. I was the first person in my house to parachute.

25. Because you have a voice and can make a difference. Sorry?

26. We’re always looking to connect with our customers in any way possible, look at our ever increasing social media presence. LM (and other TOCS) do this as well and better

27. It’ll take less than two minutes to make a difference for 15 years. to your profit

28. We don’t just run trains, we also made over £500,000 for charity last year. WOW - and this didnt have any taxation implication for the company at all? what nice people. But one should ask why only 500k from such a rich company

29. We’re the only train company that offers deals for customers with railcards during peak time travel.Good - but First seem to be saying this will continue

30. 60,000 people want to work for us, from over 30 different countries, and we’re always looking for the best people to do so. and? I want to be a footballer or a grand prix driver - aint going to happen mind!

31. Our state-of-the art electric Pendolino trains are environmentally friendly emitting at least 76% less CO2 than cars and 78% less than domestic flights. The same domestic flights your parent compnay have just annouced form Manchester to London? Think your saving might have gone!

32. We’ve recently added capacity on our services to increase standard seating by 50%. Good but see earlier points about new trains.

33. If you like what we did in the last 15 years you should see what we've got planned for the next 15. You had your chance to convince the governement and lost

34. Virgin Trains has recently been named best train operator by Which? Magazine, and is top of the long-distance train franchises by the independent National Passenger Survey. Good - but who votes for this? The sheep who sign your petition?

35. For the second time in three years, Virgin Trains received the coveted Favourite Rail Operator award at the prestigious Globe Travel awards, which recognises excellence among international hotel groups, travel operators and package holiday companies. The award was decided by customers rather than a panel of judges. see point 34

36. We don’t follow the pack, we lead it. WHAT??????

37. We offered free travel to military personnel on all our services, in recognition of their contribution to ensuring security. Good- Long may this continue Give me free travel and i wil lvote for you :)

38. The public trusts us for a reason, because we have earned that trust by time and time again delivering the Virgin difference. The public trusts your brand and has no understanding of railway operations and you know this and exploit this

39. Scotland would have a far greater choice of services under our next franchise, creating a hub at Motherwell. So if you live in Motherwell press red now........

40. We’ve proved time and again we can deliver what we promise.based on the backs of hard work of lots of other people - then complain when these other people are slightly late in delivering a much more complicated project

41. Virgin Trains has been awarded two Kitemarks by the British Standards Institute (BSI). A first-ever for a UK train company, for its tangible efforts to reduce energy consumption on trains and at stations. and this benefits the customer how exactly?

42. We will always fight for what is best for the customer. So should every business. Or do you dress up whats best and most profitable for your business as best for the passenger?

43. If we get 100,000 signatures the government will discuss the issue in parliament. no they MIGHT discuss the issue which will allow vast grand standing from your figure head chairman

44. We build our franchises on growth not cuts. and First plan what excatly?

45. We didn’t have to be an Olympic partner to provide a gold medal winning service for athletes and customers alike. Sorry you have lost me....

46. We take everyone from Olympians and Paralympians to Brad and Angelina, to a little old lady going to see her grandchildren, you’re all VIPs to us. right. So you carry passengers. THIS is a reason for continuing your franchise? :roll:

47.This isn’t our network, it is not the government's, it is yours and it deserves to be run responsibly and with the best interests of the customer and the country at its very core. our survey says.......

48. Virgin Trains has spent 15 years getting you where you need to go but this time we need your help. thnaks but i paid you for the journeys. Where do i bill you for this service?

49. People think what we do is easy, until they try and copy it. You can teach anyone to do a job but you can’t teach somebody to care. We care. I care about my job thanks. And this should get you a franchise because?

50. Virgin Trains is not just a company it is part of a Virgin group, which shares a vision. A vision that continues to be innovative and daring and which strives constantly to showcase the true greatness of Britain. We strive to achieve this by empowering our employees to continually deliver an unbeatable customer experience. WOW Corporate mission statement alert.

And one more for luck...
51. In the time it takes for you and 41 and a half of your friends to complete this petition we could have taken you from Birmingham to London Euston. great. Those Virgin track guys are fantastic :roll:

this is the kind of bullsh*t that Virgin know the public will lap up as they have no idea how the railways in this country opperate.

Listen guys, just give it up, you lost. Accept it as you are starting to look childish and stupid. You may also harm your chances of getting other franchises
 
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junglejames

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Even with people handing out leaflets etc, I still think most people wouldn't care about their TOC. It takes an amount of effort to find the petition, sign it and then confirm it via the email sent. I don't think it should be just dismissed as 'stupid passengers'.

Virgin are good at PR and Branson is famous, but I still think this many people wanting to keep a TOC is something unusual.

But have you seen the arguments from some of the people signing the petition? They really dont know what they are talking about.

Something ive just seen on facebook from I assume the creator of the page:

"you know what happened dont you First actually made a secret payment to one of the people in charge of this so that there was no way they would lose"

Thats quite an accusation.
 

williamn

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*bangs head against wall*

I've already said they the people signing may not be best informed, but its also not helpful to dismiss them as 'stupid passengers'. It doesn't matter how this plays out on this thread anyway - Virgin care more about how it looks on BBC News etc.
 

DarloRich

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*bangs head against wall*

I've already said they the people signing may not be best informed, but its also not helpful to dismiss them as 'stupid passengers'. It doesn't matter how this plays out on this thread anyway - Virgin care more about how it looks on BBC News etc.

dont molly coddle them - Quite frankly they are idiots and deserve telling.

Virgin are starting to look like a spoilt child stamping thier foot and shouting it isnt fare i want my train set back!

However it may be that First need to embark upon a PR charm offensive to win these people over
 

PFX

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What do Jamie Oliver and Ronan Keating know about rail franchising? :?

Jamie did run his own model railway in the spare bedroom as a child and Ronan did sing about a roller coaster (yes, it's tenuous)...

As Nym says, the result isn't going to change. All we can do is sit back and see how it all pans out.
 

willc789

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By Branson throwing his toys out the pram in such style, he is only going to damage his long term reputation (hopefully). His reation has been utterly childish to First winning the franchise! I honestly hope BA put the price of the flights through the floor and get the pathetic man out of the domestic airline market as its a mere revenge tool against the DfT and First along with his other pet hatred, BA!!!
 

The Prisoner

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Apologies for crashing on in on the debate. First time poster, and although not a rail enthusiast or employee I found this thread through google and wanted to add my opinion.

I say I am not an employee, but I did work for the old West Coast trains "division" of BR back in 1996-8 as a part time clerk in the Telephone Enquiry Bureau at Preston station in the days before VT, but it is more as a very regular user of Virgin's service that I post here.

I travel from Chester 3-4 times a month on average either down to London or up to see relatives in Penrith, and in my job I also have cause to use First's services on three of their franchises (GW, TP & Capital Connect) relatively regularly.

It doesn't make me an expert, but as far as VT are concerned my observations are as follows:

I think VT are paying some degree of price for poor train selection. The Voyagers they use for CTR-EUS services are frequently overcrowded, especially after they have made their mandatory stop at MKC. The 0935 is the first off peak service of the day, yet is often full and standing on leaving Crewe as coach D is classified as 1st class, leaving just 3 coaches of standard. The seating in standard on these trains is oppressive and there is little room for luggage on these services. They are just not suitable for long distance, high density travel. I do wonder if VT lost the Cross Country franchise in part due to the introduction of these awful trains. I am a fan of the Pendolino, but there are too many seats with no view and not enough luggage storage (though having been on Southern last week with three suitcases "some" is better than "none"!).

This brings me on to my second point - VT ticketing has become an exercise in fleecing over the years. The VT peak really is all or nothing, and with the introduction of an afternoon peak window between 1500 and 1900 for returns from London (is half past 3 in the afternoon REALLY peak?!) customers are funnelled on to neighbouring off peak services, which in turn become alarmingly overcrowded (see point on the 0935 CTR-EUS above). An Anytime return from Chester to London is an eye watering £241, whilst an off-peak one is £74.20. There are simply no advance purchase tickets available in the peak (or where there are they save you £5 at the expense of all of your flexibility). I travelled from Chester to Newbury recently and had to avoid my preferred option of going via London as I needed to be there by 11am - yet my journey started on the 0735 peak CTR-EUS to Crewe...which was less than half full! Sure, someone will argue that DfT legislation has allowed them to do this, BUT by offering some degree of common sense on the provision of unregulated fares leisure and business travellers who plan ahead could have been managed into the peak with a premium still being achieved over the walk-up off-peak fare. I have to plan my meetings in London simply around not wishing to pay the extra £170 for the dreaded Anytime ticket.

Since the introduction of the VHF timetable VT's stopping patterns have concerned me. I travel once a month or so from Chester to Penrith, and travel from there on to London or Scotland frequently - and it has become increasingly apparent that VT are largely interested in fighting for the air travel market and concentrating on the longer distance traveller. Penrith's service has been carved up over recent years into a skip-stop pattern with neighbouring Oxenholme, with most of their services stopping at only one of the stations. Large holes in the service have appeared as a result with Penrith going for a four hour gap for example between London trains on a weekday afternoon between the 1303 and 1703 (the three that pass through in between all stop at Oxenholme!). Does nobody check these things?

And yet for all their faults I like Virgin Trains. I appreciate that the service gets prescribed to a certain extent by the DfT, but they have introduced an hourly direct service from CTR to EUS for most of the day (before it was a very sporadic route) which has had a positive impact on our city (despite the trains being those damned Voyagers!). They have approached the regeneration of the WCML (yes I know that Railtrack/NR manage the infrastructure) with a positive, innovative and fresh approach to capitalise and improve on what was a crock of the brown stuff back in the 90s (certainly when I worked there anyway).

Much seems to have been made of the concept of brand in this thread, but as a regular user I feel far more at ease with traveling with Virgin. Their first class service is far superior to that I experienced with FGW, and is (to the best of my knowledge) the only one to include alcoholic drinks FOC during the week (although I can only afford it on the off peak trains and when I get a First Advance ticket!). Their staff are as helpful as I have experienced, and whilst I don't doubt that First's staff are wonderful too I would compare and contrast VT's people now to the miserable gits I worked with back in the 90s.

Maybe I am a brand snob! Maybe I should embrace First. Maybe we should all embrace change. But VT have brought a freshness to this franchise. Sure, they have made mistakes (see above!), and there are things they should/could improve on, but as they have partnered RT to bring this line out of the wilderness I feel a sense of injustice that they shouldn't be allowed to continue with the work they are doing and see it through - after all most people thought they were mad to get involved in the first place.

Now that they have helped make it a success someone else gets to push in on the back of figures that look cooked (if indeed they get that far into the franchise) and faster wi-fi. There's loyalty for you!

If you travel with VT regularly and know what went before, then for all their flaws, resisting First is fairly straight forward. I have nothing against First, but to displace VT seems an injustice.
 

WestCoast

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By Branson throwing his toys out the pram in such style, he is only going to damage his long term reputation (hopefully). His reation has been utterly childish to First winning the franchise! I honestly hope BA put the price of the flights through the floor and get the pathetic man out of the domestic airline market as its a mere revenge tool against the DfT and First along with his other pet hatred, BA!!!

He doesn't have any reason to hate First, but Branson and BA do go way back to the 1980s and yes, BA didn't always treat the fledgling Virgin as it perhaps should have (look up " BA dirty tricks" if you're interested). Virgin entering the domestic market is not really about revenge with the DfT or First, it's about the loss of one their "partners", bmi.

If we could've replaced Branson with Freddie Laker on the railways...:D
 
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driver_m

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Almost at 52k now. Looks like there a quite a few of us who don't want to get over it. This could start getting very uncomfortable at DaFT.
 

YorkshireBear

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Im bored of this now, First won.

What i am glad about is that First are keeping themselves realtively quiet, not fighting back, just keeping calm and getting on with what they need to do. I must admit i didn't have a problem with Virgin before this, now i cant stand the brand. It is ridiculous what they are doing (which must be similar to brainwashing!) with constant lies and PR spin. I am finding the whole thing infuriating i just wish someone would let First get on.

If i was First and this got reversed to Virgin that would just be it for this country, i would pack up and leave everything. And i don't mean wait till the end of franchises i just mean leave go to America and Europe. Maybe stay in Scotland.
 

F Great Eastern

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I say I am not an employee, but I did work for the old West Coast trains "division" of BR back in 1996-8 as a part time clerk in the Telephone Enquiry Bureau at Preston station in the days before VT, but it is more as a very regular user of Virgin's service that I post here.

May need to check your dates. Virgin Trains started operating on the West Coast in early 1997 I believe?

I think VT are paying some degree of price for poor train selection. The Voyagers they use for CTR-EUS services are frequently overcrowded, especially after they have made their mandatory stop at MKC. The 0935 is the first off peak service of the day, yet is often full and standing on leaving Crewe as coach D is classified as 1st class, leaving just 3 coaches of standard. The seating in standard on these trains is oppressive and there is little room for luggage on these services. They are just not suitable for long distance, high density travel. I do wonder if VT lost the Cross Country franchise in part due to the introduction of these awful trains. I am a fan of the Pendolino, but there are too many seats with no view and not enough luggage storage (though having been on Southern last week with three suitcases "some" is better than "none"!).

All of which situations are being dealt with in the new franchise with extended longer rolling stock, strengthened services and new rolling stock which is being procured and the likely cut in first class seating.

I have to plan my meetings in London simply around not wishing to pay the extra £170 for the dreaded Anytime ticket.

For all your moaning about the fares, First have already stated that they are going to reduce anytime fares by 15% and it seems that that they will also look at ways to grow revenue so empty trains and fare policy I would expect to be reviewed.


Much seems to have been made of the concept of brand in this thread, but as a regular user I feel far more at ease with traveling with Virgin. Their first class service is far superior to that I experienced with FGW, and is (to the best of my knowledge) the only one to include alcoholic drinks FOC during the week (although I can only afford it on the off peak trains and when I get a First Advance ticket!). Their staff are as helpful as I have experienced, and whilst I don't doubt that First's staff are wonderful too I would compare and contrast VT's people now to the miserable gits I worked with back in the 90s.

What exactly do Virgin offer in First class these days?

I feel a sense of injustice that they shouldn't be allowed to continue with the work they are doing and see it through.

Now that they have helped make it a success someone else gets to push in on the back of figures that look cooked (if indeed they get that far into the franchise) and faster wi-fi. There's loyalty for you!

If you travel with VT regularly and know what went before, then for all their flaws, resisting First is fairly straight forward. I have nothing against First, but to displace VT seems an injustice.

No, they promised a lot more than that, including some of the things that you are upset that Virgin are currently doing now. So it's a lot more than free wifi, but of course I appreciate that the likes of Virgin are dressing it up to be a franchise of cuts when it simply has no factual basis.

See:
http://www.firstgroup.com/corporate/our_company/intercity_west_coast.php
&
http://www.firstgroup.com/corporate/our_company/west_coast_FAQ.php

There are several franchises down the years who have done a good job and been kicked out and were perceived to be an injustice. Some of the replacement operators have done better, others have done worse, but there is no hard and fast answer to how this situation will turn out, but First have vast experience of Rail operations and they also run a range of lines and stock on much older infrastructure and much older rolling stock throughno fault of their own but still manage to outperform Virgin for punctuality despite all the money spent on trains and the infrastructure on the West Coast.

Virgin don't need to deal with short distance commuters, government delays over provision of rolling stock (IEP), or the more complex local lines. It's a much easier railway to run than the GWML and all the commuter and local lines that it entails. Notice how Branson won't go anywhere near a multi-purpose franchise.
 

PFX

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Almost at 52k now. Looks like there a quite a few of us who don't want to get over it. This could start getting very uncomfortable at DaFT.

No. It won't. This is a pointless petition in respect of trying to overturn the decision. As I stated earlier, there is only one way that it can be overturned as part of a public procurement and there is as yet, no sign of that happening. As long as the procurement process has been run fairly, the DfT have nothing to worry about.
 

F Great Eastern

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Joined
2 Apr 2009
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3,851
Location
UK
Im bored of this now, First won.

What i am glad about is that First are keeping themselves realtively quiet, not fighting back, just keeping calm and getting on with what they need to do. I must admit i didn't have a problem with Virgin before this, now i cant stand the brand. It is ridiculous what they are doing (which must be similar to brainwashing!) with constant lies and PR spin. I am finding the whole thing infuriating i just wish someone would let First get on.

If i was First and this got reversed to Virgin that would just be it for this country, i would pack up and leave everything. And i don't mean wait till the end of franchises i just mean leave go to America and Europe. Maybe stay in Scotland.

If this gets overturned as I said it just means every franchise process in the future is going to have the very same problem, the TOC that finishes second in the next award is going to come out and say that the other one overbid, and ask for a reversal, and then will cite what happened in this case throwing the whole system into crisis

I never had a problem with Virgin but right now I just see them as whinning babies, I was upset when FGE lost their franchise but I never acted like this and neither did the company, despite the fact the staff were devastated and the company was top of many performance tables and the operator of the year at the time, just got on with it and accepted it and didn't try and spin things.

Like you if this happens then for me it will be where my interest in the railways takes a severe battering and I will never use the West Coast again because I despise the way they are going about this situation. I agree they have a right to be upset and downbeat about losing the franchise and say that they feel they made a good offer, but they have gone WAY too far.
 

All Line Rover

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Joined
17 Feb 2011
Messages
5,270
What exactly do Virgin offer in First class these days?

Adequate breakfasts (I've seen better on other TOCs - Virgin's aren't large enough) and some very weird sandwich combinations. I liked it when they did crayfish, beef, etc... last year - but recently they've gone bonkers with the fillings! I find it better to travel Standard Class, buy a crayfish sandwich from Pret before boarding, and use the money that's left to travel again!

The evening meals are usually decent. In my opinion that's the only highlight. But then Advance tickets to/from London on most evening meal services are so expensive I never travel on them except on Fridays.

Oh and they offer "free" alcohol that is (obviously) paid for through the ticket price, which is annoying for those of us who don't drink alcohol.

I hope First significantly improve the First Class food. Even if they start charging for it and only offer "the full works" (aka ATW Premier Services, former East Coast Restaurant, FGW Travelling Chef*) on a select number of services.

*The quality of FGW's Pullman is undeniably excellent, but with the prices they charge I prefer to go to a restaurant!
 

Nym

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Joined
2 Mar 2007
Messages
9,786
Location
Somewhere, not in London
I must say, aside from the unlimited free booze gained by flirting with the on board staff, the meal on board was disappointing, even though it was nice cheese.

Tiny amount of Lamb Stew, Tiny Roll, lots of wine though, but I suspect this was because I was flirtatious with the on board staff rather than being something that you'd get anyway.
 
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