First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[Wath Yard]

If the Virgin/Railtrack PUG2 plan had gone ahead with 140 mph running then journey times would have been reduced even further. I'm not sure if the frequencies would have been the same as the DfT VHF timetable though.

If PUG2 had gone ahead, had been paid for by Railtrack and Virgin as promised, and had only taken the relatively small amount of time to deliver it was supposed to I would be singing Virgin's praises as loud as anybody else. But it didn't.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I give up:

Done! We don't want rubbish trains. Go Virgin!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yet there also seems to be some sense:

This is quite frankly pathetic. Talk about bad losers. All your doing virgin trains is embarrassing yourselves publicly.

My faith in mankind has just risen ever, ever so slightly.

 

[Manchester77]

^^^^
They go from one extent to another commenters

 

[capital12]

Oh please, it's FirstGroup, not Ryanair.

I actually think that's a bit slanderous towards Ryanair!

On a serious note though, for all the people who are against First taking over West Coast there are justified reasons - and fair ones at that.

Firstly, their bus business is under performing - hence the sell offs and closures recently (and likely more to follow). By bidding high for West Coast, but with all the premium payments to the Government in the last few years of the franchise they have the opportunity to rake in the revenue now to prop themselves up, but then hand the keys back near the end - ok they will forfeit their bond of around £240m but thats not much compared to the billions they have agreed to repay.

Its much like a credit card in a way - take the money now (revenue) and then default when its time to pay the bill!

Compare that to Virgins bid - ok, less overall total repayed - but they would be paying up from nearer the start of the franchise. A lot fairer in my book.

Then there's the customer service angle - Virgin prides itself on giving great customer service. Ok, not always perfect but 99% of the time its pretty good. That's why despite not being the most reliable operator they top the customer satisfaction surveys. With consistent good customer service skills you are more likely to be forgiven for the bad times.

First on the other hand dont. There are pockets of good staff - thats more to do with their own sense of pride rather than any particular company ethos - the staff on the Paddington to Penzance sleeper were exceptional but these are in the minority. The bulk I have experienced appear disinterested in their work at best to down right rude. Contrast that to Virgin where the staff go out of their way to help and make the journey more pleasant - the sense of pride of working for a decent employer shines through.

Those who point out it will be the same staff when First takeover are not wrong - but the same staff with the same customer service skills I doubt. It may not happen overnight but the moral will drop - people like working for Virgin (I'm sure there are many perks too) but First - no thanks!

The Virgin brand works because they understand that a brand is more than just a logo - its about the product as a whole - the train - the staff - the service - all this together makes people want to use (or buy) a product and is the same in any industry. Unfortunately First do not get this. They have recently launched a new image for their buses (a pretty hideous one at that) but there is nothing to back this up - no great customer service etc. It's still the same grubby buses with grumpy staff. Put another way - you cant put mouldy food into a new box and make it edible.

I make the choice to use Virgin because I like the service I receive - some journeys where I could drive I will use the train - with First its because I have to. I guess I will be using the car more from December!

If you havent got something to start with you cant miss it when its gone - for example if First were to win Cross Country would I be signing a petition, no - would I be writing to my MP, no. But to lose Virgin from the rail network is something that I feel is bad enough anyway, let alone the unrealistic bidding by First purely to prop themselves up in the short term and that is worth fighting for.

So back to Ryanair! Grumpy staff and no frills, actually pretty similar to First after all.....

 

[bnm]

Then there's the customer service angle - Virgin prides itself on giving great customer service. Ok, not always perfect but 99% of the time its pretty good. That's why despite not being the most reliable operator they top the customer satisfaction surveys. With consistent good customer service skills you are more likely to be forgiven for the bad times.

Virgin came second in the list of most complained about TOCs to Passenger Focus. And in the most recent National Passenger Survey Virgin were not top for customer satisfaction. That honour went to Merseyrail. They weren't top for overall satisfaction on long distance operators either. That honour went to Hull Trains, who are majority (80%) owned by..... wait for it...... First Group!

Oh, and they weren't highest in the previous NPS either.

Contrast that to Virgin where the staff go out of their way to help and make the journey more pleasant - the sense of pride of working for a decent employer shines through.

This'll be the same Virgin Trains that refuse access to a train at Euston despite holding a valid ticket or combination of Tickets? The same Virgin Trains who reduced an elderly woman to tears when she had mistakenly boarded the wrong train and demanded of her over £200 on the spot? The same Virgin Trains that threatened arrest for begging to the person who came to the elderly woman's assistance and organised a whip round for her? The same Virgin Trains whose staff, up to and including senior management consistently lied to Transport for London, The Mayor's Office and MPs about ticket validity?

Those who point out it will be the same staff when First takeover are not wrong - but the same staff with the same customer service skills I doubt.

And by being taken over by First these staff will somehow forget their customer service skills?

It may not happen overnight but the moral will drop

What evidence do you have that morale will drop?

- people like working for Virgin (I'm sure there are many perks too) but First - no thanks!

Ah, so Virgin Staff are only in it for the perks? If so, when they become First employees, they are going to be devastated to discover that their staff travel allowances will include travel to many more places in than UK than present. Aberdeen, Bristol, Cardiff, Doncaster, Ely, Falmouth, Gatwick Airport....

The Virgin brand works because they understand that a brand is more than just a logo

The Virgin brand works because they are able to promote style over substance by spending oodles of cash on marketing. The First brand works because it gets the job done.


As for all the comparisons with buses. Aren't you forgetting that Virgin Trains is 49% owned by Stagecoach?

 

[Donny Dave]

On a serious note though, for all the people who are against First taking over West Coast there are justified reasons - and fair ones at that.

Firstly, their bus business is under performing - hence the sell offs and closures recently (and likely more to follow). By bidding high for West Coast, but with all the premium payments to the Government in the last few years of the franchise they have the opportunity to rake in the revenue now to prop themselves up, but then hand the keys back near the end - ok they will forfeit their bond of around £240m but thats not much compared to the billions they have agreed to repay.

Which bus business? Thay have loads both here in the UK and North America! All they are doing is the same as what every other company will do, remove duplication of services and get rid of the loss making and/or low profit margin areas of their business.

If they "hand back the keys" near the end of the franchise, then they will be shooting themselves in the foot, as the DfT will then be extremely reluctant to even consider shortlisting them for another franchise. The only way they will be able to get out of the franchise early without any form of penalty is if there is an agreed break point written into the contract, a bit like there is with the FGW franchise.

Then there's the customer service angle - Virgin prides itself on giving great customer service. Ok, not always perfect but 99% of the time its pretty good. That's why despite not being the most reliable operator they top the customer satisfaction surveys. With consistent good customer service skills you are more likely to be forgiven for the bad times.

First on the other hand dont. There are pockets of good staff - thats more to do with their own sense of pride rather than any particular company ethos - the staff on the Paddington to Penzance sleeper were exceptional but these are in the minority. The bulk I have experienced appear disinterested in their work at best to down right rude. Contrast that to Virgin where the staff go out of their way to help and make the journey more pleasant - the sense of pride of working for a decent employer shines through.

Those who point out it will be the same staff when First takeover are not wrong - but the same staff with the same customer service skills I doubt. It may not happen overnight but the moral will drop - people like working for Virgin (I'm sure there are many perks too) but First - no thanks!

Firstly, I'll ignore your quip where you take my name in vain. Secondly, I'll let Flamingo answer your point about FGW staff (if he happens to come across your post), but ....

TPE, Hull Trains and Scotrail. They all have 2 things in common. All operated by First Group, and all have a lot of staff with excellent customer service skills (I can't say for certain what the staff are like at FGW and FCC, as I very rarely use their services). All of which brings me onto my next point ....

The Virgin brand works because they understand that a brand is more than just a logo - its about the product as a whole - the train - the staff - the service - all this together makes people want to use (or buy) a product and is the same in any industry. Unfortunately First do not get this. They have recently launched a new image for their buses (a pretty hideous one at that) but there is nothing to back this up - no great customer service etc. It's still the same grubby buses with grumpy staff. Put another way - you cant put mouldy food into a new box and make it edible.

Virgin may well make their brand work for them, but what exactly is their core business? You have Virgin Active, Virgin Games, Virgin Holidays, Virgin Money, Wines, Media, Mobile, Virgin Atlantic, Virgin Trains and many more. The company is too diverse for have specialised knowledge in any 1 field, although they do try to make up for that by hiring the best people they can to run the various divisions of the group.

However, First Groups core business is transportation, specifically passenger transportation. With that in mind they will have a better idea overall of what people want and expect when using their services.

In the end, all Virgin have at stake is their brand, but the group overall is too big and diverse for a small part like Virgin Trains to affect the brand too much. First Group have their reputation as a public transport operator on the line. It is in their best interests to do the best they can, otherwise the whole company suffers, not a tiny part of a huge empire.

I make the choice to use Virgin because I like the service I receive - some journeys where I could drive I will use the train - with First its because I have to. I guess I will be using the car more from December!

If you havent got something to start with you cant miss it when its gone - for example if First were to win Cross Country would I be signing a petition, no - would I be writing to my MP, no. But to lose Virgin from the rail network is something that I feel is bad enough anyway, let alone the unrealistic bidding by First purely to prop themselves up in the short term and that is worth fighting for.

So back to Ryanair! Grumpy staff and no frills, actually pretty similar to First after all.....

Fair enough about using Virgin because you want to, but let me ask you a question. Why will you suddenly be using the car instead as soon as First take over the franchise? You have said yourself it will be the same staff and the same trains. The only things that will change that are immediately visible to the travelling public after the transfer will be the uniforms and the livery!

Overall, I think Beardy is making a huge PR gaffe here by shouting down First Group before everything is finalised, let alone start running the franchise. Unfortunately, a lot of people are "buying" his spin, including Bob Crow (who made himself look a right t*** on the BBC before First announced any of their plans).

Mr Spock recently posted in this topic they will be using First West Coast with an open mind as to what they can actually deliver in terms of performance and customer service for a while. Unfortunately, he seems to be the only person so far ....

PS. Welcome to the forum.

 

[WatcherZero]

Your right nothing is going to change over night but gradually things will. Whats going to stop me using the franchise by choice for leisure journeys will be the loss of leg room ( I have big legs and like to read a paper) and the loss of the shop (though I am still missing the microwave hot food choices from the shop Virgin used to offer).

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Your right nothing is going to change over night but gradually things will. Whats going to stop me using the franchise by choice for leisure journeys will be the loss of leg room ( I have big legs and like to read a paper) and the loss of the shop (though I am still missing the microwave hot food choices from the shop Virgin used to offer).

So you already know for certain that all the seats are going to be squashed together with no legroom, and you already know that the shops will close completely on every train? Why not wait and see what actually happens.

 

[causton]

Whats going to stop me using the franchise by choice for leisure journeys will be the loss of leg room

What?

No really...

I don't understand this at all. What do you mean? It's... the same... trains... (for now. and the new ones, you don't know what they'll be like. thanks for guessing wildly)

 

[rail-britain]

you already know that the shops will close completely on every train?

Neither First Group nor InterCity West Coast have reported the shop will close
This was a rumour from another organisation, probably based on a pre-contract request which then leaked


http://www.firstgroup.com/corporate/our_company/west_coast_FAQ.php :
We'll be maintaining an attractive catering service on all our trains, with plans to refurbish shop areas and add more at-seat services on longer distance routes to keep you refreshed on your journey without having to leave your seat
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Serious enough to start the whole tender process again, complete with a short extension to the current franchise as needed, or would DfT be within their rights to tell First to either sign or get lost, and in the case of the latter simply award to Virgin (assuming they were runners-up)?

DfT will be more than happy to sign the contract, they have gone through the entire process and never hinted they have any concerns
However, First Group could refuse but very unlikely

If the contract could not be agreed, then the current franchise would expire and then be operated by a private company owned and operated by DfT (Directly Operated Railways), exactly the same as with InterCity East Coast, until it could be prepared for the franchising process to commence again

 

[WillPS]

I'm very happy to see the blatent guff from some has been identified as such.

As for those crying out over how poor First are, well:

First Great Eastern - widely recognised as pretty good
First Great Western (original) -again not considered a problem
First North Western - historic problems (as I'm sure any such franchise holder would have had) but noted for ability to get stock on track when needed
First ScotRail - not many complaints, talk about improvements from NX Scotrail
First TransPennine Express - generally praised, issues with capacity but this is at least somewhat down to DfT - noted for promotions and availability of good advances
First Great Western (current) - particularly shaky start, but by the middle of franchise had temporary arrangemets to compensate for capacity issues, and secured cascaded stock pending 172 delivery - also went as far as to purchase stock outright

Overall, it's really not that bad a track record - and the worst of the biggest problems (with FGW) aren't going to come about since they were to do with integration of InterCity and regional operations, and even then they're now regarded as having done well to sort the issues out.

If it's a balls up, it's a balls up. First get their hands slapped, their share value drops through the floor, and the franchise returns to the public purse to make money on directly (read: we keep every penny of profit that route generates).

 

[WatcherZero]

What?

No really...

I don't understand this at all. What do you mean? It's... the same... trains... (for now. and the new ones, you don't know what they'll be like. thanks for guessing wildly)

VP of First being interviewed confirmed thats what they are doing, both Voyagers and Pendolinos will have their seating completely replaced within five years, increasing seating density raising the number of seats in the existing stock and lowering around 20% of ticket prices (pile em high, sell em cheap). Chief exec said they would be refurbishing the shop areas but on long distance services they would be 'upgrading' to at seat catering suggesting they would only be staying on shorter services.

Edit:
Reading through the First conference call, again says at seat catering will replace shops on longer distance services. On top of the Governments 25% increase in capacity from lengthening Pendos they will be increasing the level of seat provision in Pendo's by a further 15% (high density seating). 'compared to the base franchise ITT of 25% increase in seat miles we will be providing a 35% increase in seat miles'.

Gerald Khoo: How do you square that with staff numbers being broadly flat?
Nick Chevis: We’ve got a lot of trains running round which aren’t being utilised. So in terms of drivers and issues like that it isn’t going to increase the need for drivers in terms of filling up those trains. We are looking at frontline delivery of services - do we actually slightly increase people on that side of things? And obviously there’ll be some consequential savings in terms of efficiency around that in other areas.
Tim O’Toole: This is about operational leverage. We will need to make sure the resources are on the frontline, but to make this work it’s about adding all that volume with the same profile of employees in total, but we’ll obviously have to put more of the resource to the frontline.

Joseph Thomas: Just to come back to the original point on the cross default. There’s essentially no cross default on these franchises as we found out with East Coast - is that still the same?
Tim O’Toole: I’m saying the provision is unchanged from the provision from the past. There has been talk about a changed provision in future franchises, but we’ll wait and see how that plays out.

Chairman says only £28m of actual balance sheet capital expenditure will take place mostly in the 17 managed stations, the rest will just be increased revenue spend (like track access charges, leasing costs), there will be no further investment in stations until the end of the franchise then just routine station maintenence priced to avoid capital expenditure of replacement before the end of the franchise.

 

[starrymarkb]

Isn't the FGW seating better for legroom then most other intercity stock currently in service?

 

[PR1Berske]

From the Guardian

Sir Richard Branson's Virgin Atlantic has announced the launch of a London to Manchester service, days after the tycoon's rail business lost the franchise for the same route.

Virgin Atlantic said it would offer a service three times a daybetween Heathrow and Manchester airport, its first domestic route, from March next year.

Steve Ridgway, the chief executive of Virgin Atlantic, said: "Flying between Heathrow and Manchester is just the start for Virgin Atlantic's new short-haul operation. We have the means to connect thousands of passengers to our long-haul network as well as to destinations served by other carriers. Our new service will provide strong competition to omnipresent BA; keep fares low and give consumers a genuine choice of airlines to fly to Heathrow and beyond."

The Virgin group has a track record as a domestic airline operator, through the Virgin Australia and Virgin America businesses.

The Manchester move has been planned for some time and is not linked to last week's decision by the government to strip Virgin Trains of the west coast franchise, which operates between London and Manchester, Birmingham and Glasgow. A Virgin Trains spokesman confirmed the move was "unrelated" to the fate of the west coast contract.

Virgin Atlantic's Manchester route will give the airline an embryonic resemblance to BA, which uses its Heathrow short-haul destinations, such as Glasgow and Edinburgh, to feed passengers into long-haul destinations such as New York and Moscow. Virgin Atlantic will hope to lure some of the 650,000 air passengers who fly between London and Manchester each year on to its service, and then on to its long-haul network. The airline said more than six out of 10 London-bound passengers from Manchester airport connect to other destinations, many of them served by Virgin Atlantic. The carrier said it had leased an Airbus A319 jet.

Ken O'Toole, chief commercial officer at Manchester Airports Group, said: "We are pleased to see competition returning on the London route, as that will be to the benefit of passengers flying from our airport. Virgin is already a strong carrier at the airport with long-haul routes to Barbados, Orlando and Las Vegas and this move adds to their range of services for the north of England. We aim to support our airlines as they look to grow and we hope the success of Virgin's domestic services will lead to further expansion at Manchester."

 

[ukrob]

VP of First being interviewed confirmed thats what they are doing, both Voyagers and Pendolinos will have their seating completely replaced within five years, increasing seating density raising the number of seats in the existing stock and lowering around 20% of ticket prices (pile em high, sell em cheap). Chief exec said they would be refurbishing the shop areas but on long distance services they would be 'upgrading' to at seat catering suggesting they would only be staying on shorter services.

Edit:
Reading through the First conference call, again says at seat catering will replace shops on longer distance services. On top of the Governments 25% increase in capacity from lengthening Pendos they will be increasing the level of seat provision in Pendo's by a further 15% (high density seating). 'compared to the base franchise ITT of 25% increase in seat miles we will be providing a 35% increase in seat miles'.

There are approx 40 tables in standard in an 11 car train. Remove half and you can add around 20 seats straight away. That is around a 5% increase. Next, lets change G to 'club class' - lets say 2+2 all with tables. That gives an increase of 16 seats - another 4%. We gain more space again by removing the Service Points in first class. Cut down the size of the shop and move the Train Managers office to where a disabled toilet was and you have your 15%.

The percentage gains on 9 car units are bigger.

I have just demonstrated how to make the gain in seats without needing to cram them closer together. Nobody knows what the layout will look like (including the both of us), but my point is that you are just passing on information with no context and assuming the worst.

 

[YorkshireBear]

From the Guardian

yeah id be willing to bet my entire life savings that the decisions ARE related!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I make the choice to use Virgin because I like the service I receive - some journeys where I could drive I will use the train - with First its because I have to. I guess I will be using the car more from December!

Is that anything to do with Virgin operating long distance trains with nice new stock? And First operating inter regional/local trains with either too short or old stock? This is rhetorical the answer is yes.

You cannot compare a Monkey to a Blue Whale. Stop trying to compare other First franchises to Virgin.

 

[starrymarkb]

From the Guardian

Will believe it when I see it. I wonder where the A319s are going to come from, second hand, chartered from another operator? (There is quite a backlog on A32x production, waiting list is about 2-3 years now). Having just one short haul route in an otherwise Long Haul network and a dedicated subfleet (presumably 1 in service and 1 spare) isn't a good plan (even taking into account that converting pilots between Airbus models is a very short course*).

The choice of route is strange as well, I'd have thought it better to have targeted somewhere like Frankfurt or Paris as bigger markets for a long haul feed (where you need Premium traffic)

I suspect this is a spoiler and nothing more.



*The A320, A330 and A340 have very similar cockpits,

 

[Oliver]

No can do. The slots being made available as a result of British Airways purchasing bmi have to be used on domestic flights - officially Edinburgh and Aberdeen at the moment, but Virgin is lobbying for Manchester to be permitted as well. The domestic flights are not just shuttles, they carry a high percentage of transferring passengers who are making onward connections at Heathrow.

Apparently he's planning three Manchester to Heathrow trips per day. What's the betting that this would coincide with a drop in Virgin long haul flights from Manchester?

 

[HH]

On top of the Governments 25% increase in capacity from lengthening Pendos they will be increasing the level of seat provision in Pendo's by a further 15% (high density seating). 'compared to the base franchise ITT of 25% increase in seat miles we will be providing a 35% increase in seat miles'.

Don't forget that they are adding 11 6-car trains with '12000 seats a day'. That, some shop removal/shrinkage, and a change of one carriage from first to standard would get you a long way. Additional services would also account for a few %.

So I don't see any plans are necessarily needed to make a huge change to standard class seating layout, based on their figures. I still think that they must be making some pretty stretchy assimptions about where they get their growth though - there'll rapidly be no room on their busiest services, even with all the extra seats.

The only way I can see to make this work (and they still manage an increase in yield) is that they increase the price substantially on the most popular services and cut it on the less popular. The risk is that they just drive people off the train altogether.

 

[starrymarkb]

Apparently he's planning three Manchester to Heathrow trips per day. What's the betting that this would coincide with a drop in Virgin long haul flights from Manchester?

Unlikely as the Virgin Manchester flights are a different market to their flights from Heathrow

Virgin have two main markets

Heathrow: Premium Traffic to major cities. (New York, LA, Tokyo, Sydney, Hong Kong)
Gatwick/Manchester: Holiday traffic to Resorts in Florida/Caribbean. (Usually sold via Virgin Holidays)

The Gatwick/Manchester flights operate a two class system (IIRC Premium Economy/Economy) rather like a charter airline where as Heathrow routes are Three Class (Business/Premium/Economy)

 

[Stats]

So I don't see any plans are necessarily needed to make a huge change to standard class seating layout, based on their figures. I still think that they must be making some pretty stretchy assimptions about where they get their growth though - there'll rapidly be no room on their busiest services, even with all the extra seats.

The only way I can see to make this work (and they still manage an increase in yield) is that they increase the price substantially on the most popular services and cut it on the less popular. The risk is that they just drive people off the train altogether.

Some of the popular services will be less popular as they look to spread the demand more evenly. For example, it's clear from what they say they'll be changing the pricing structure so that some of those that travel on the first off-peak services after the evening peak will be attracted to the less crowded last peak services.

I'm not sure whether they'll be allowed to rename the off-peak ticket to super off-peak and introduce a off-peak ticket at a pricing level between that and the Anytime ticket? Do the regulatory fare rules allow that?

 

[Nym]

Virgin came second in the list of most complained about TOCs to Passenger Focus. And in the most recent National Passenger Survey Virgin were not top for customer satisfaction. That honour went to Merseyrail. They weren't top for overall satisfaction on long distance operators either. That honour went to Hull Trains, who are majority (80%) owned by..... wait for it...... First Group!

Oh, and they weren't highest in the previous NPS either.

But this was GB Railways management for a long time, and only recently fully integrated into the ranks of First Management, and it does seem that former GB Railways companies tend to score better. (Hull Trains)

I'm very happy to see the blatent guff from some has been identified as such.

As for those crying out over how poor First are, well:

First Great Eastern - widely recognised as pretty good
First Great Western (original) -again not considered a problem
First North Western - historic problems (as I'm sure any such franchise holder would have had) but noted for ability to get stock on track when needed
First ScotRail - not many complaints, talk about improvements from NX Scotrail
First TransPennine Express - generally praised, issues with capacity but this is at least somewhat down to DfT - noted for promotions and availability of good advances
First Great Western (current) - particularly shaky start, but by the middle of franchise had temporary arrangemets to compensate for capacity issues, and secured cascaded stock pending 172 delivery - also went as far as to purchase stock outright

Overall, it's really not that bad a track record - and the worst of the biggest problems (with FGW) aren't going to come about since they were to do with integration of InterCity and regional operations, and even then they're now regarded as having done well to sort the issues out.

If it's a balls up, it's a balls up. First get their hands slapped, their share value drops through the floor, and the franchise returns to the public purse to make money on directly (read: we keep every penny of profit that route generates).

Nice summary there, seems it is GB Railways management that does nicely, and they do OK when Keolis own 45% of the company

Apparently he's planning three Manchester to Heathrow trips per day. What's the betting that this would coincide with a drop in Virgin long haul flights from Manchester?

Probably not, the routes operated from Manchester are Gatwick (Touristy) routes, not Heathrow ones.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Deleted

 

[Nym]

Unlikely as the Virgin Manchester flights are a different market to their flights from Heathrow

Virgin have two main markets

Heathrow: Premium Traffic to major cities. (New York, LA, Tokyo, Sydney, Hong Kong)
Gatwick/Manchester: Holiday traffic to Resorts in Florida/Caribbean. (Usually sold via Virgin Holidays)

The Gatwick/Manchester flights operate a two class system (IIRC Premium Economy/Economy) rather like a charter airline where as Heathrow routes are Three Class (Business/Premium/Economy)

When I was working down at Ringway the flights from Virgin were the same as the LHR routes, (Economy, Premium Economy (Extra Legroom, some freebies) and Upper Class) but in different configuration with significantly less upper class seating. Except when an A340-300 was borrowed for the Barbados route, then cheap upgrades were being offered at check in to Upper Class.

 

[WatcherZero]

The MEN says it will be through the basing of one additional plane in Manchester and is expected to generate around 250,000 annual passengers and sustain approx 100 jobs.

 

[F Great Eastern]

But this was GB Railways management for a long time, and only recently fully integrated into the ranks of First Management, and it does seem that former GB Railways companies tend to score better. (Hull Trains)

Comparing a 5/6 train a day open access operation with a huge TOC like FGW and Scotrail is ridiculous. HT don't even manage any stations, run one type of service and one type of rolling stock and only a couple of peak trains a day in each direction.

That is an even more silly comparison than VT to FGW

 

[HH]

I'm not sure whether they'll be allowed to rename the off-peak ticket to super off-peak and introduce a off-peak ticket at a pricing level between that and the Anytime ticket? Do the regulatory fare rules allow that?

Regulated Fares are not changeable, but there is room to introduce two layers of off peak tickets. For instance you could create a semi-off peak ticket that allowed you to use non-high peak services. I can't see any point in introducing a cheaper off-peak as you would just abstract from your AP tickets - and you want as many tickets sold AP as you can get.

 

[Nym]

Exaggerate much?

I'd love to see how three flights will sustain 100 jobs directly, it will mean a marginal amount more work for Virgin's handling agent... That's all!

Sounds like the same washover that Ryanair used when they quoted the number of staff at their handling agent as at risk when they pulled out of Manchester (except for the route making them a shed load, Dublin)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Comparing a 5/6 train a day open access operation with a huge TOC like FGW and Scotrail is ridiculous. HT don't even manage any stations, run one type of service and one type of rolling stock and only a couple of peak trains a day in each direction.

That is an even more silly comparison than VT to FGW

It's not just Hull Trains, it's also the GB Railways operations on Great Western prior to becoming Greater Western that were apparently rather good, referring here to GB Railways, not just Hull Trains.

 

[F Great Eastern]

It's not just Hull Trains, it's also the GB Railways operations on Great Western prior to becoming Greater Western that were apparently rather good, referring here to GB Railways, not just Hull Trains.

Need to check your history I think - GB Railways were bought in 2003 to try and get back in the Greater Anglia race and were only the parent of Anglia Railways GBRailFreight an Hull Trains. First bought out Great Western holdings in 1998 to get FGW and FNW.

 

[starrymarkb]

When I was working down at Ringway the flights from Virgin were the same as the LHR routes, (Economy, Premium Economy (Extra Legroom, some freebies) and Upper Class) but in different configuration with significantly less upper class seating. Except when an A340-300 was borrowed for the Barbados route, then cheap upgrades were being offered at check in to Upper Class.

Having checked I was getting confused. The Gatwick A330s are 2-class but the 747s are 3...