First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[tbtc]

we can't judge First till they start...

True - we can't.

But oddly some people who, before the announcement. were saying "just wait and see, nobody knows who's won yet" (despite the leaks etc) are now very quick to claim that First *will* fail (amazing the powers of soothsaying they know have...).

 

[WestCoast]

I believe it's pinned to the top of their official Facebook Wall too, so it's the first thing any of their 60,000~ likers see when they click on the page. I've given up reading that and the unofficial page, it's angering and humorously saddening in equal measure.

All it proves is that many people don't understand the system and are taken in by the PR machine that is Virgin's marketing department. It's strange how the Facebook page was full of complaints just a couple of weeks ago. I guess that the old mantra about satisfied customers not often giving feedback rings true.

In other news, apparently Virgin Atlantic Airways are going to secure some slots for a Manchester - Heathrow air route (alongside their existing Scotland airports - Heathrow claim), supposedly as a result of the rail franchise loss.

 

[spargazer]

Virgin Atlantic are starting LHR-MAN-LHR next March, their first domestic route, if they get those slots
http://www.cwtdigital.com/News/22897...uys_instagram/

they bid for bmi and failed
for WCML and failed
and they are bidding for slots at Heathrow now....

 

[RPI]

There are at least 3 or 4 comments on VT's facebook page accusing VT of paying advertising companies to comment on there to get the ratings up!

 

[RobShipway]

I have heard through a friend that works for First and also seen a comment in the latest Rail Magazine, that First has all ready started the purchase process for the 11 6 car 125mph trains. This process was apparently started even before they knew they had won the ICWC franchise. How is this possible?

 

[tbtc]

I have heard through a friend that works for First and also seen a comment in the latest Rail Magazine, that First has all ready started the purchase process for the 11 6 car 125mph trains. This process was apparently started even before they knew they had won the ICWC franchise. How is this possible?

I presume that if you were putting a multi million pound bid for the franchise promising new six coach EMUs you'd at least sound out manufacturers about the cost of them.

 

[snail]

I have heard through a friend that works for First and also seen a comment in the latest Rail Magazine, that First has all ready started the purchase process for the 11 6 car 125mph trains. This process was apparently started even before they knew they had won the ICWC franchise. How is this possible?

Something like this:
FWC: Hello Mr Manufacturer, how much are your 6 car 125mph trains?
MM: About this much
FWC: If we get the franchise would you be able to start building on Monday?
MM: I think so
FWC: Thank you, we'll be in touch

 

[David10]

I have heard through a friend that works for First and also seen a comment in the latest Rail Magazine, that First has all ready started the purchase process for the 11 6 car 125mph trains. This process was apparently started even before they knew they had won the ICWC franchise. How is this possible?

They are likely to have already sought tenders from manufacturers and may have even signed a contract that had a get out clause should they not win. Recall that Chiltern signed a contract for their first 168s within weeks of being awarded the franchise indicating the process had been made beforehand.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I believe it's pinned to the top of their official Facebook Wall too, so it's the first thing any of their 60,000~ likers see when they click on the page. I've given up reading that and the unofficial page, it's angering and humorously saddening in equal measure.

I have taken a look through the Virgin Trains facebook page today, and am astonished by the amount of complete and utter drivel posted by the public. I can't work out which annoys me the most, the fact that VT seems to be encouraging it all, the fact that these people actually believe what they are saying, or the fact that VT seem to be continuing to peddle complete bull at the same time.

The amount of ill informed drivel is amazing - even stuff posted by foreigners who admit to never having used VT "but it must be good because it is Virgin".

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I have taken a look through the Virgin Trains facebook page today, and am astonished by the amount of complete and utter drivel posted by the public. I can't work out which annoys me the most, the fact that VT seems to be encouraging it all, the fact that these people actually believe what they are saying, or the fact that VT seem to be continuing to peddle complete bull at the same time.

The amount of ill informed drivel is amazing - even stuff posted by foreigners who admit to never having used VT "but it must be good because it is Virgin".

The thing is more people trust the virgin brand then the First brand.good pr it may be but a lot of people liked virgin trains (and still do) its only drivel if you don't agree with it. I personally liked the virgin trains brand and absolutely detest first (I worked for fnw) sure they may have improved leaps and bounds but I still remember good service 1st. And virgin for me provided that.

 

[Oliver]

Virgin Atlantic are starting LHR-MAN-LHR next March, their first domestic route, if they get those slots
http://www.cwtdigital.com/News/22897...uys_instagram/

they bid for bmi and failed
for WCML and failed
and they are bidding for slots at Heathrow now....

If (big if) they win the LHR slots they won't waste them on services to Manchester. They will switch some of their services currently running to/from Gatwick to Heathrow, because they will save costs and generate more revenue that way. Heathrow is London's premium airport, and makes sense for long-haul flights using large planes, not 737's shuttling up the M6.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I have heard through a friend that works for First and also seen a comment in the latest Rail Magazine, that First has all ready started the purchase process for the 11 6 car 125mph trains. This process was apparently started even before they knew they had won the ICWC franchise. How is this possible?

All the bidders would have done this, and the suppliers would respond - knowing that one of the bidders would be likely to place an order.
You have to do this to be able to get costs for the franchise. Somewhere it says Virgin had already reached a contract with Alstom.
The GW bidders will now be doing the same with Hitachi over IEP (internal layout etc), and with other suppliers for new EMUs.
It's another possible source of leaks about franchise plans.
Everything is of course subject to the bidder actually winning the franchise, and then placing a supply contract.

 

[Wath Yard]

No, it's drivel because it's drivel. If someone likes Virgin Trains and think they provide a good service then that is their opinion and they are entitled to it. The rest is drivel, pure and simple, written by people who haven't the first idea about rail franchises, how they are awarded, who provides what on the railway or anything else for that matter. Comments like:

Sign the petition and vote for Virgin!

It isn't X-Factor.

And never ending comments about Virgin Trains always being on-time - they're bottom of the PPM table!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If (big if) they win the LHR slots they won't waste them on services to Manchester. They will switch some of their services currently running to/from Gatwick to Heathrow, because they will save costs and generate more revenue that way. Heathrow is London's premium airport, and makes sense for long-haul flights using large planes, not 737's shuttling up the M6.

I don't think that is possible.
The ex-BMI domestic slots have to be used on ex-BMI routes (I thought it was Edinburgh and Aberdeen rather than Manchester), otherwise they revert to BA.

 

[WestCoast]

If (big if) they win the LHR slots they won't waste them on services to Manchester. They will switch some of their services currently running to/from Gatwick to Heathrow, because they will save costs and generate more revenue that way. Heathrow is London's premium airport, and makes sense for long-haul flights using large planes, not 737's shuttling up the M6.

No can do. The slots being made available as a result of British Airways purchasing bmi have to be used on domestic flights - officially Edinburgh and Aberdeen at the moment, but Virgin is lobbying for Manchester to be permitted as well. The domestic flights are not just shuttles, they carry a high percentage of transferring passengers who are making onward connections at Heathrow.

 

[swt_passenger]

I have heard through a friend that works for First and also seen a comment in the latest Rail Magazine, that First has all ready started the purchase process for the 11 6 car 125mph trains. This process was apparently started even before they knew they had won the ICWC franchise. How is this possible?

No mystery at all. It is standard practice to issue an OJEU 'Prior Information Notice' (PIN) to interested manufacturers. The bidders have to be able to demonstrate that their rolling stock plans are achievable, it's one of the 'delivery plans' that they get marked on in the assessment process.

Stagecoach went public with a PIN for a significant quantity of rolling stock for the Greater Anglia franchise a while back, that was done at a time when they were only shortlisted.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The thing is more people trust the virgin brand then the First brand.good pr it may be but a lot of people liked virgin trains (and still do) its only drivel if you don't agree with it. I personally liked the virgin trains brand and absolutely detest first (I worked for fnw) sure they may have improved leaps and bounds but I still remember good service 1st. And virgin for me provided that.

I have no issue with people liking Virgin Trains. I don't particularly dislike them, nor do I particularly like them either - I am indifferent - much as I am to most rail operators. Ultimately I couldn't care who runs the West Coast. What is annoying is the people who are posting anti First stuff seemingly based purely on the fact that their buses are tatty, or are signing petitions based on one experience. Not to forget the numerous posts from people claiming that overnight in December the Pendolinos will all be withdrawn and replaced with 3 car 30 year old DMUs, the staff will all be sacked and all the new staff will be far ruder and less helpful, the fares will double, all Advance tickets will be withdrawn, the trains will be slower and there will instantly be no catering. They all seem completely blind to the fact that even if Virgin kept WC there would be alterations as they too would need to pay a hefty premium to the Goverment.

 

[tbtc]

never ending comments about Virgin Trains always being on-time - they're bottom of the PPM table!

Although, to be fair, Virgin are struggling with old stock on a railway that's not had bucketloads of money thrown at in over the past decade.

No, sorry, my mistake, that's FGW with their 1970s HSTs on the old-school GWML getting better PPM figures than Virgin (despite Virgin having a brand new train set on an expensively revamped WCML).

Maybe this suggests that First will be better at running the service on the WCML (even if their livery isn't as pretty or marketing as swish) and they deserve credit for running long distance trains well?

 

[Mr Spock]

As I said I would have liked Virgin to keep the franchise but now its been given to First I think Virgin (and every one else) should accept the decision.

I will wait and see what First do before passing judgement but hope that we don't end up having another fiasco like East Coast.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Someone on Facebook claims Virgin reduced their journey from 'four and a half hours to under two'...

Nonsense.

To be fair to Branson and Co, it's rather obvious they could sell rice to Indians somewhat better than any other company I know.

 

[ivanhoe]

I have no issue with people liking Virgin Trains. I don't particularly dislike them, nor do I particularly like them either - I am indifferent - much as I am to most rail operators. Ultimately I couldn't care who runs the West Coast. What is annoying is the people who are posting anti First stuff seemingly based purely on the fact that their buses are tatty, or are signing petitions based on one experience. Not to forget the numerous posts from people claiming that overnight in December the Pendolinos will all be withdrawn and replaced with 3 car 30 year old DMUs, the staff will all be sacked and all the new staff will be far ruder and less helpful, the fares will double, all Advance tickets will be withdrawn, the trains will be slower and there will instantly be no catering. They all seem completely blind to the fact that even if Virgin kept WC there would be alterations as they too would need to pay a hefty premium to the Goverment.

A very good post. Your last sentence is often forgotten by the' Virginias' . Even if they had won, there were big changes ahead. Perhaps we can now concentrate on the challenges ahead given that we are now entering a period of proper franchising as opposed to Management Contract.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Someone on Facebook claims Virgin reduced their journey from 'four and a half hours to under two'...

That could be perfectly true - on a Sunday.
Most trains took that long at weekends for a decade, running via Bescot and Northampton and other mysterious places.

 

[WatcherZero]

Or simply changing connection times could save hours if a service arrives just after another has left.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

In that case surely it's the timetable planners and relevant consultation bodies as well to thank, I doubt Virgin planned the entire WCML timetable down to the last detail all on their own!

 

[Wath Yard]

The VHF timetable was specified by the DfT. Virgin's main involvement is to provide the staff and run it, so you were absolutely correct with your original comment that Virgin have not reduced their journey.

And let's not forget the decade of disruption was whilst Virgin ran the service, or does nothing prior to 2008 count?

 

[calc7]

Haven't Virgin journey times crept up in the last couple of years? I distinctly remember 2h5m to/from Manchester being branded about in about 2008, not the fastest off-peak is 2h7m (the EUS-SOT-MAC-SPT-MAN and v/v)

 

[Zoe]

If the Virgin/Railtrack PUG2 plan had gone ahead with 140 mph running then journey times would have been reduced even further. I'm not sure if the frequencies would have been the same as the DfT VHF timetable though.

 

[davido39]

Heard a rumor the new six coach Emu's will be built by Wright. Right that's me with the jokes I'll get my coat. Greetings and salutations to you all.

 

[The Planner]

The VHF timetable was specified by the DfT. Virgin's main involvement is to provide the staff

Specified by the DfT, written by 2-3 people in NR.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I have no issue with people liking Virgin Trains. I don't particularly dislike them, nor do I particularly like them either - I am indifferent - much as I am to most rail operators. Ultimately I couldn't care who runs the West Coast. What is annoying is the people who are posting anti First stuff seemingly based purely on the fact that their buses are tatty, or are signing petitions based on one experience. Not to forget the numerous posts from people claiming that overnight in December the Pendolinos will all be withdrawn and replaced with 3 car 30 year old DMUs, the staff will all be sacked and all the new staff will be far ruder and less helpful, the fares will double, all Advance tickets will be withdrawn, the trains will be slower and there will instantly be no catering. They all seem completely blind to the fact that even if Virgin kept WC there would be alterations as they too would need to pay a hefty premium to the Goverment.

A woman ranted the other morning about this (and many other things) after my morning train from chapeltown to leeds/keighley was cancelled. I did point a few things out to her after she claimed most of the above and she actually thanked me for putting her right.

She asked me if i worked for railway (had my hi vis coat over my arm) i said kind of, she didn't need to know which railway....