First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[90019]

Groups and families generally prefer tables.

There are other people who use the trains - it's not just groups and families.

So you wont be travelling on the Wag Express from September then

Correct.
Though I don't quite see why that's relevant, since I've never used it and I doubt if I ever will.

 

[HH]

Of course the danger with an intermediate class between First and Standard is that companies/individuals which may have previously paid for First class due to the extra space now only pay for "Club class" as they aren't that fussed about the extra food, booze, etc.

Not much danger on WCML, because Full Fare First Class usage is very small.

 

[ainsworth74]

Slightly random but when new livery is applied to the fleet, will first class be identified by the traditional yellow band otherwise it'll be very confusing with first and first class

People seem to cope on TPE and also on ScotRail services (not counting the ones in the Saltire livery). That being said I do think that the yellow stripe should make a comeback on more livery's.

not to mention the state of Class 185 stock. This is only what I've experienced 1st hand

And in my experience TPE, FGW, FHT and ScotRail in all but very rare circumstances have a fleet of trains that's well presented both inside and out.

Please remember platforms are only leased to TOC's by NWR,so it will come down biggest spender,ie First will take plats 1/2 at Glasgow and use let more of there local services

Really? What's your source? This is the first I have ever heard of TOCs leasing specific platforms from Network Rail. How does this work at a station which TOCs themselves manage? Also can you clarify by the part I've put in bold you're writing isn't very clear on this part.

 

[The Planner]

Considering we do the platforming at a lot of major stations, that is nonsense. TOCs can request to use certain platforms and where we can we will do that. Sometimes what appears to be a TOCs platform is purely operationally based as it works better that way, it isnt "theirs".Virgin were one of the worst for it as they would kick up a right stink if they couldn't get next to their first class lounges.

 

[fgwrich]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...ont-hit-the-buffers-after-West-Coast-win.html

Interesting article from the Telegraph, in which Tim o Toole's point of view seems to come out rather well of compared to the toy throwing points of view we're seeing from Branson.

Today, however, the transport veteran is clear on the detail, branding Sir Richard’s statements as “odd” and questioning why there has been such a favourable response in Virgin’s favour when its train services are “so ordinary”.

Fair comment from Tim. Whilst First's plan isnt promising too much, it also isnt claiming to be something radical or special, like Virgins comments and statements do.

 

[Hazlehead]

Not much danger on WCML, because Full Fare First Class usage is very small.

Exactly! Only about 8% of travel in First Class on WC is made by people using Full Anytime tickets. Even at Peak times passengers travel on Advance saving on average at least't30-40 off the full fare. And on their return journey they usually paid from 36.50 to £ 69 . Rest of time its Advance tickets paying 36.50 & 49 ( even less with railcard). Not sure if club class would work unless its planned to cut the lower price Advance First. Or the other option could be Coach K and J become Full First/ season tickets only and the Advance first become club class in coaches G & H?

 

[WelshBluebird]

People say how bad the seating is on FGW HST's, well they're a damn sight better than Voyager/Pendo seats and has far more legroom for a start!

I actually really like the seats on the FGW HST's.
As you say, its better than the Voyagers.
Never been on a Pendo though so can't comment - are they the same as the Voyagers?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I actually really like the seats on the FGW HST's.
As you say, its better than the Voyagers.
Never been on a Pendo though so can't comment - are they the same as the Voyagers?

Similar, but less window glass to look through (narrower, smaller).
Personally, I hate the tall seats on the recent upgrades (HST, 158, Mk4 etc).
You may get bigger windows on these trains but the wider view is obscured by the seat in front of you. Ancient lights!

 

[Whistler40145]

As I am not the thinnest of people, I do find it rather cramped sitting in an Airline seat, even worse if the train is already busy & you can't put any bags, jackets etc up on the luggage rack.

 

[ainsworth74]

Considering we do the platforming at a lot of major stations, that is nonsense.

Thanks for clearing that up, I thought it was but always good to get someone else to confirmation.

 

[furryfeet]

Not much danger on WCML, because Full Fare First Class usage is very small.

So are they
a) going to reduce the full fare first class fares ?
b) introduce off-peak walk-on 1st class fares ( aka what has happened on first great western ) ?
c) have "companion" walk-on fares for 2/3/4 people travelling together ?
All of these would presumably put more bums on seats and hence increase the revenue overall. An empty seat earns nothing !

If the train was divided into three classes as other posts have suggested i.e.
first-business / first-no-food / standard ( bit like eurostar )
what would happen if say, first-no-food was overcrowded ? Will they be allowed to move into first-business, free of charge ?

 

[MKB]

The biggest problem with the standard-class FGW seats is that they are so claustrophobic. Their high seat backs make you feel like you're in a vertical coffin.

I used to travel regularly from Oxford to London in the 80s (on the £2 student weekend fare) and the 270-degree panorama from the seat of an Intercity 125 was a joy.

Now, when I have a journey that involves FGW, if I can't get a cheap First-class Advance fare, I drive.

 

[shaun]

Would 2+3 seating even physically fit inside a Pendo's dimensions?

Of course not, there is barely room as it is and the seats couldn't possibly be any narrower. If First introduced 3+2 seating, most people to/from Birmingham would flock to Chiltern who by then will be running mostly refurbished high quality Mk3s at a lower fare and only slightly longer journey time. People further north would lose out entirely. Also with London Midland being able to run at 110mph (with some 2+2 seated trains), it is just a no-brainer. Weren't the pendos voted worst passenger environment for an IC service recently? That's probably why First want to do something about the interior, they can't make it any worse! 'Club Class' will most likely be standard class seating with a few extra benefits (more tables maybe, similar to what Virgin did on their voyagers for Coach 'D'), that way if it doesn't take off they'd be able to revert it back to Standard. Alternatively they could use a First Class carriage but without the meal/at seat service you'd normally get, so it'd basically be like 'Weekend First'.

Speaking of Coach D on voyagers, that coach is exactly what the voyagers should've been like in standard all along. The seats are wider and more comfortable, yet don't seem to take up much more space. Hopefully that is exactly what First have planned for their Voyagers/Pendos refit.

 

[DarloRich]

Please remember platforms are only leased to TOC's by NWR,so it will come down biggest spender,ie First will take plats 1/2 at Glasgow and use let more of there local services

News to me! I assume you have a source for this ill informed clap trap?

 

[shaun]

The biggest problem with the standard-class FGW seats is that they are so claustrophobic. Their high seat backs make you feel like you're in a vertical coffin.

I used to travel regularly from Oxford to London in the 80s (on the £2 student weekend fare) and the 270-degree panorama from the seat of an Intercity 125 was a joy.

Now, when I have a journey that involves FGW, if I can't get a cheap First-class Advance fare, I drive.

They are high, but for me they're very comfortable and the width/legroom is very generous. I loved the IC70s, but the legroom wasn't always great and the armrests were a pain in the arse. Voyager/Pendo seats on the other hand, are like plane seats. Too narrow and not enough legroom.

 

[All Line Rover]

Speaking of Coach D on voyagers, that coach is exactly what the voyagers should've been like in standard all along. The seats are wider and more comfortable, yet don't seem to take up much more space. Hopefully that is exactly what First have planned for their Voyagers/Pendos refit.

I agree that Coach D is the optimal Standard Class layout. If Coaches B and C were converted to this layout, capacity would be about 58 seats per carriage rather than the current 68. Whilst that might sound like a significant reduction, it's worth noting that Coach D has far more luggage space than normal due to the wide gaps between seats - wide enough to accommodate even the largest of suitcases. (The gaps are necessary to ensure that every table of four lines up against a window).

 

[shaun]

Can't believe people are suggesting 2+3. What a load of nonsense, driven by anti First Group lines of thinking.

I suspect Club Class will just be a first class coach with no at seat service. Unbookable, but you can upgrade to it by paying the Train Manager once on board.

Exactly, basically Weekend First running 7 days in one coach is my guess. Nobody is going to want to travel with first if they 'downgrade' standard class and make you pay more for the real standard class. They'd never get away with it.

 

[snail]

Less tables = fewer tables!

Which equates to how many tables in Coach A?

I believe the appropriate term is 'woosh...'

 

[MKB]

There's been much talk of the the 10.4% growth promised by First versus the 8.4% growth promised by Virgin.

What I'm not clear on is what growth this refers to. Is it growth in revenues, revenues less costs, passenger numbers, total passenger miles or something else?

What I do know is that these growth figures correspond to year 2025 figures being 3.62 times what they are now for First and 2.85 times what they are now for Virgin. [For comparison, the Office for National Statistics are forecasting a 7.86% UK population growth over 10 years. From this, we can extrapolate and say that in 2025 there will be 1.103 times as many people in the UK as now.]

If we're talking revenue, I would assume, for those growth figures to be meaningful, they are ignoring inflation, so that revenue would in fact be far bigger in 2025 than even those figures imply; unless, of course, the global economy performs so bad we have several years of deflation. (Who knows? That might just happen!)

If we're talking passenger numbers, I suspect that even the Virgin figures are wildly optimistic. All the infrastructure improvements over period of the last franchise revealed that there was a lot of suppressed demand that is now being largely met. The average VT occupancy -- I saw 47% quoted -- reflects my own experience that there are the occasional trains that are rammed, usually because of big events taking place, and quite a few running near full bringing the average up. Meanwhile there are a lot of VT trains running up and down the WCML less than a third full. Even the very cheap Advance fares that are often still available the day before travel are not filling up these trains.

Tim O'Toole argues that VT's marketing is poor. He must be living on another planet to me, because I felt that one of the areas in which Virgin excel is in marketing, often to the extent of appearing to promise far more than they actually deliver. Whatever I feel myself about Virgin, they do seem to be well liked by the British public, so their PR is effective. And there's no shortage of emails from them in my inbox exhorting me to check out their cheap Advance fares. Sure, they could go for more billboard, press, cinema, radio and tv advertising, but (a) that all comes at a huge cost, and (b) it's hard to target and therefore not necessarily cost-effective.

With petrol prices consistently outpacing inflation and forecast to carry on doing so, maybe there's potential to shift many more car journeys to rail? Were rail fares forecast to become better value over time, that would be a feasible scenario. Instead, the promise is of average fares being increased at 3% over RPI. In a world where most people are feeling the economy biting, the more likely scenario, I would argue, is that people will reorganise their lives so that journeys become unnecessary -- take jobs closer to home, teleconferencing, etc. -- or are simply sacrificed. When money is tight, people will look more to local attractions for days out rather than what the capital has to offer.

I suspect the 1995-2005 period may prove to be the last great boom period of Western economies such as ours. With China dominating global manufacturing and service industries being increasingly outsourced to low-wage economies, it's difficult to see where our next upturn can come from. Factor in the burden of the diverging Euro-based economies, and I struggle to see where the UK will generate the wealth that will enable us all to be travelling so much more on the WCML in 2025.

 

[jon0844]

I am another fan of the FGW HST seating as I like to sit upright and the tip down table lets me use my laptop easily. I don't want a table when travelling alone, so this doesn't bother me and the tables that do exist can be kept for groups that wish to reserve them. Everyone is happy.

It was annoying that there were (are) so few power points on the 390s so hope that will be addressed.

Finally, I used to travel Leisure Select or whatever it used to be called on Eurostar and can see myself doing so on an Intercity train if it is effectively Weekend First all week. I've upgraded a few times and you sort of psychologically disconnect that fee with the original ticket price.

 

[snail]

Tim O'Toole argues that VT's marketing is poor. He must be living on another planet to me, because I felt that one of the areas in which Virgin excel is in marketing, often to the extent of appearing to promise far more than they actually deliver. Whatever I feel myself about Virgin, they do seem to be well liked by the British public, so their PR is effective. And there's no shortage of emails from them in my inbox exhorting me to check out their cheap Advance fares.

I'm not so sure. They are great at brand awareness but does that equate to bums on seats? If I'm travelling up to Scotland I can usually get better deals on TPE than Virgin. Or does that mean Virgin are so good all the seats are sold before they get this far north? Dunno. I've confused myself now!

 

[bnm]

Another fan here of the FGW HST seats. They promote good posture.

It may seem comfortable to slump in an IC70, but it's doing your back no good at all.

 

[WatcherZero]

I would have to join the people saying 3+2 was impossible. Im expecting Club to be the same seating as now while standard will have reduced leg room and less overhead baggage space per person (because theres more seats). If they had the same seating in Club as First Class noone would buy First Class just for the meal.

Virgin have released some of their Scottish plans to the Herald Scotland today, a direct London to Stirling (dependent on electrification north of Glasgow) and one every two hours service frequency for Motherwell (also part financing a park and ride site at Motherwell with Lanarkshire Council). It says the Motherwell and Stirling service would be targeting air passengers by offering a new rail hub and allowing them not to have to go to Glasgow first to catch a train.

Virgin has also criticised Firsts plans to increase seating density and sell more advance tickets saying it would make the service less able to deal with exceptional demand (like an event) and there would be less turn up and go seats though First says it would introduce a ticketing system to lower turn up and go fares if theres an abundance of spare seats on a certain service. (I imagine how it would work would be at the ticket office you turn up and say you want to travel to X and a message flags up on the ticket sellers screen, they then tell you that if you dont catch the next service but catch the one after which is less busy you can save £XX)

According to the FT Virgin is still considering whether to appeal or not, the Virgin bid is understood to have included a cast iron franchise commitment of no mandatory redudancies while First simply said they expected headcount after five years when new services and gating are introduced to be broadly similar to today (i,.e the same number of staff doing more work) suggesting some redudancies and reassignments to different jobs.

 

[John55]

There's been much talk of the the 10.4% growth promised by First versus the 8.4% growth promised by Virgin......

The 10.4% growth is made up as below;

RPI.................................................................................3.1%
Yield management / revenue protection / enhanced products.....1.5%
Volume............................................................................5.8%
Passenger revenue CAGR...................................................10.4%

from the First Group presentation posted about 800 posts ago so not so easy to find now.

So First are expecting to increase passenger numbers to 70 odd million or 2.3 times current levels by 15 years time.

 

[All Line Rover]

Virgin has also criticised Firsts plans to increase seating density and sell more advance tickets saying it would make the service less able to deal with exceptional demand (like an event) and there would be less turn up and go seats though First says it would introduce a ticketing system to lower turn up and go fares if theres an abundance of spare seats on a certain service. (I imagine how it would work would be at the ticket office you turn up and say you want to travel to X and a message flags up on the ticket sellers screen, they then tell you that if you dont catch the next service but catch the one after which is less busy you can save £XX)

That's a bit of a stupid argument. "We mustn't fill up the trains for the 1 in 100 chance that an event will be on."

I just hope this "increased seating density" will mean the removal of one or two tables per carraige (like FGW) and not even less legroom - there's barely enough in the current seats.

 

[jon0844]

the more likely scenario, I would argue, is that people will reorganise their lives so that journeys become unnecessary -- take jobs closer to home, teleconferencing, etc. -- or are simply sacrificed. When money is tight people will look more to local attractions for days out rather than what the capital has to offer.

I suspect the 1995-2005 period may prove to be last great boom period of Western economies such as ours. With China dominating global manufacturing and service industries being increasingly outsourced to low-wage economies, it's difficult to see where our next upturn can come from.

Teleconferencing will never replace face to face meetings and even if more people work from home (as I now do), they'll probably travel more for leisure. That's great if it can spread the load on emptier services.

And the increased cost of shipping seems to be affecting China and many Chinese companies seem to be seeking to buy up companies here and build things here, which I never thought I'd see happen.

Even outsourcing jobs to India etc may end up with jobs coming back through customer demand (e.g. loss of customers) or high profile disasters with outsourced contracts for IT that could cost millions.

Obviously other factors may change demand in future years that none of us know about, but it seems that one way or another, demand will keep increasing.

 

[HH]

Exactly! Only about 8% of travel in First Class on WC is made by people using Full Anytime tickets. Even at Peak times passengers travel on Advance saving on average at least't30-40 off the full fare. And on their return journey they usually paid from 36.50 to £ 69 . Rest of time its Advance tickets paying 36.50 & 49 ( even less with railcard). Not sure if club class would work unless its planned to cut the lower price Advance First. Or the other option could be Coach K and J become Full First/ season tickets only and the Advance first become club class in coaches G & H?

Almost certainly they will remove the cheapest First Class tickets. I've seen these plans before, and this is always the case. I'm equally sure that the number of "true" First Class seats will be cut. Exactly how it's done doesn't really matter - it will probably be an operational decision.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So are they
a) going to reduce the full fare first class fares ?
b) introduce off-peak walk-on 1st class fares ( aka what has happened on first great western ) ?
c) have "companion" walk-on fares for 2/3/4 people travelling together ?
All of these would presumably put more bums on seats and hence increase the revenue overall. An empty seat earns nothing !

If the train was divided into three classes as other posts have suggested i.e.
first-business / first-no-food / standard ( bit like eurostar )
what would happen if say, first-no-food was overcrowded ? Will they be allowed to move into first-business, free of charge ?

a) From what they say, yes;
b) Maybe, but only as part of reducing AP First Class;
c) Possibly, but if it were me this would be a business only offering.

I expect the "mid-class" to be a cut down First. Free Tea/Coffee and a Biscuit /Bun rather than a full catering offer. I expect it to be done in such a way that bums could not exceed seats.

 

[calc7]

Might as well get the First West Coast First Class Service thread started now.

 

[tbtc]

My personal guess is that standard class seating will remain very much as it is now as will first class and instead club class seating will be the same as what's found in coach D on Voyagers, namely 2+2 but entirely around tables and with perhaps a bit more legroom and a slightly comfier seat. I imagine the easiest way to deal with the revenue side of things will be be to make it a supplement bought on board and administered in much the same way that weekend first is.

As with another poster above I'll eat my laptop of they introduce 3+2 in standard I just can't see it happening.

Sounds how I'd expect it (any talk of 3+2 seating is just stirring)

Eurostar have a three classes: Standard/Standard Premier/Business Premier. Given that many firms have banned first class travel, this might be a way round that everyone can live with. Worth a try I'd say

I would agree - maybe this will the "norm" in a decade on other TOCs too.

Why is there such an obsession with tables?

There are plenty of us who actively avoid sitting at tables when we're travelling alone or with one other person, and don't enjoy having to play footsie a load of strangers.
Personally, any class on a train that has all tables with no airline seats available is a class that I won't be using

Yeah, there's a need for both types of seating - as I'm not normally travelling as a group of four I tend to avoid tables

Not much danger on WCML, because Full Fare First Class usage is very small.

Exactly! Only about 8% of travel in First Class on WC is made by people using Full Anytime tickets

Pretty worrying figures for whoever won the new franchise (though sadly not too surprising now that fewer people get First Class paid for them by companies etc - whilst some things in this recession will bounce back, I don't expect to see firms happily going back to paying higher fares again).

Virgin have released some of their Scottish plans to the Herald Scotland today, a direct London to Stirling (dependent on electrification north of Glasgow) and one every two hours service frequency for Motherwell (also part financing a park and ride site at Motherwell with Lanarkshire Council). It says the Motherwell and Stirling service would be targeting air passengers by offering a new rail hub and allowing them not to have to go to Glasgow first to catch a train

These plans sound great (presumably requiring new stock for Stirling services, plus Holyrood to get their finger out!) - its a shame that they didn't manage to introduce them in their fifteen years running the franchise.

I've said before that Motherwell could be a great "feeder" station for much of western Scotland (convenient for the motorway, convenient for trains to Lanarkshire) in the way that Wakefield attracts London-bound passengers from much of West Yorkshire who don't want to drive into Leeds.

Running WCML services to Stirling (stopping at Motherwell, Cumbernauld and Larbert*) is also A Good Thing - at the moment people from much of the central belt would go to Edinburgh for services further south, so a Stirling extension of some WCML services would tap into that.

* - for Falkirk

 

[Xavi]

Another fan here of the FGW HST seats. They promote good posture.

It may seem comfortable to slump in an IC70, but it's doing your back no good at all.

Agreed, the FGW seats are the best around. Superb for laptop use with those special seat back tables. No question in my mind the seats have encouraged longer commutes as you're as good as sat in your office. Neither have I had any legroom trouble and I'm not short. They are way better than the Voyager and Pendolino seats which are worse for legroom and laptops. And you even get more seats per carriage! East Midlands Trains used the same seats in their 158s.