First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[Manchester77]

On voyagers, will first take out some of the easy access toilets or will it remain the same. I'd imagine they could fit in a few extra seats in place of one.

Oh and regarding club class, IMO the tables would be narrower.

 

[gordonthemoron]

if club class is aimed at business customers, what is the need for extra luggage space?

 

[Rich McLean]

if club class is aimed at business customers, what is the need for extra luggage space?

It may be aimed at Business customers, but from a marketing perspective, having more luggage space is another major selling point for long distance travelers. A lot of London Workers travel from London on a Friday, then back again Sunday PM

 

[ainsworth74]

On voyagers, will first take out some of the easy access toilets or will it remain the same. I'd imagine they could fit in a few extra seats in place of one.

As far as I'm aware it would affect the structure of the coach to much and as such is not possible and if it were I imagine it would have already been carried out on XC's Voyagers.

 

[RPI]

People say how bad the seating is on FGW HST's, well they're a damn sight better than Voyager/Pendo seats and has far more legroom for a start!

 

[Class83]

I seriously doubt that it will be 3+2 as this has been in decline outside of a few legacy units and on some former NSE routes. On both Scotrail and TPX the new stock is 2+2 in standard (the lack of carriages is another issue) so I doubt they're going to want their new flagship route to have worse accommodation. I think that the same seats as standard, but with more tables and less airline seats is likely (particularly as it's a first class coach that they're talking about refurbishing.

The point about businesses/government not paying for 1st class is increasingly true, so standard with tables and free wifi would probably be quite attractive. BA no longer offer even a 'club' class service on the domestic flights, but in the unlikely event of first going 3+2 in standard flights from Glasgow to City Airport will become very popular.

 

[All Line Rover]

If they put 3+2 seats in Pendolinos I will eat my laptop. I expect there will probably be less tables in standard but thats about it

Less tables = no tables!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Standard class - As its now 2+2, but with new seats, and about 4 tables per coach.

i.e. The same as now.

 

[HH]

This is one thing where I'm afraid I must disagree, I do think first are that stupid, you should see how they recruit their Engineers, if you have any actual real engineering skill or behave like one (asking for clarification before proceeding) you've got no chance of getting the job, even worse if you're not a protentious prick that has no ambition other than becoming a manager...

To give some background to this, I was being interviewed by people on their APEDS scheme to become a chartered engineer, this is an accredited pathway layed out by British Rail in accordance with UKEC and IET/IMechE guidelines, and should take four years for a MEng candidate and five for a BEng candidate, the interviewers had been with the company for 9 years and had not fufilled UKSPEC (UKEC Specification for a Professional Engineer) because all they did was managment.

Because First Group's managment favours wet behind the ears no skill other than pure accademia and/or psudo managment skills (all this new age modern kak that is really irritating and doesn't have any foundation in real managment) I really can see the whole managment team not realising about the body profile of Class 390 and 221 stock and proceeding to order 3+2 seating for standard regardless, or in some other way reduce, significantly, the current quality of Standard Class so it would only be used by the subclasses of society that are highly price sensitive (Students, Young Families, Unemployed, SDNW etc.) and the 'club class' that I can see being similar to current standard class with a free diet coke would be a required upgrade for any passenger who is not price sensitive, resulting in an artifically inflated standard class, now club class and packing them in in 3rd class.

In such areas there's no such thing as First in reality. Every TOC handles things differently. That is changing, but slowly. In any case the bid team is not made up of First Managers. That's not to say that they won't make cock-ups, but I seriously doubt that they would be at this level.

 

[monty9120]

has anyone had an email from virgin trains?

it seems virgin are taking all the credit for the trains and the massive investment into the wcml.

in the email it says 'our' penderlinos made a tilting revelation.

as much as i enjoyed virgin. the chiltern trains are so much more comfy with more leg rooms.

there just milking it and wanting people to feel sorry for them. there was loads of money thrown at them. they have come out well for it

 

[HH]

Sounds very similar to the previous InterCity Silver Executive. Which was basically, Full price Standard fares with offerings from the restaurant car included; very popular on Monday and Friday, but almost empty every other weekday

I imagine it will be something like this, but possibly in re-classified First carriages. Changes to seating cannot be done overnight and they are tight on Standard Class seating already on some trains.

They have to be careful though, if they make the offer too attractive then they risk filling up with former First Class passengers. Make it not attractive enough and who will take it. Get it right though and that's where some of their yield growth is coming from.

 

[All Line Rover]

They have to be careful though, if they make the offer too attractive then they risk filling up with former First Class passengers. Make it not attractive enough and who will take it. Get it right though and that's where some of their yield growth is coming from.

If First offer a "Club Class" with First Class seats, and don't improve the First Class food offering, I will immediately switch to "Club Class."

 

[Manchester77]

Slightly random but when new livery is applied to the fleet, will first class be identified by the traditional yellow band otherwise it'll be very confusing with first and first class

 

[HH]

That would seem most likely. I wonder then, if coach G on the Pendos is to be stripped of it's first class seating, whether that would be likely to be the one becoming "Club Class"?

Interesting to see that First are looking to bring back the three-class model of service that Virgin dropped so hastily, and that hasn't been taken up by any other Intercity TOCs...

Eurostar have a three classes: Standard/Standard Premier/Business Premier. Given that many firms have banned first class travel, this might be a way round that everyone can live with. Worth a try I'd say.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So maybe there's going to be a gap in the market now for a "half way house" that there wasn't a few years ago?

Exactly.

 

[rail-britain]

I imagine it will be something like this, but possibly in re-classified First carriages. Changes to seating cannot be done overnight and they are tight on Standard Class seating already on some trains

Very much so
I would expect Coach G on Class 390 to simply be declassified and Coach D on a Class 221 to have a premium Standard fare applied to passengers using this coach
On refurbishment Coach G will then be converted to a Standard seating layout, which matches the total train seat numbers proposed

In effect Club Class would be become a Weekend First, available on normal week days
However, would passengers travelling with Standard tickets be willing to pay a supplement (for example an extra £15) to do so?

 

[Nym]

At least I have no issue in admitting I have a gripe with First Group, a fair few people on here seem to but don't like to admit they do...

Not only due to their recruitment policies (the moment I got to interview and met the others there I realised I didn't want to work for the company, this is handled at the top level of First Group), but also ticketing on GM Buses North and their quality of drivers / customer service, pulling late night TPE services from MIA that some people relied on to get home, not to mention the state of Class 185 stock. This is only what I've experienced 1st hand, no comments on what's happening with Thameslink.

Either way, logically thinking I think we're looking at airline only reduced pitch 2+2 seating going into Standard, and a slight enhancement on the current standard for the club class section, probably paid by a supplement bought on board or beforehand, possibly re-enforced by additional AP tickets available only via First WC's website.

PS: I have similar problems with Stagecoach Group because of some of their policies and the personal decisions of it's CEO over the years, it's not just First...

PPS: If it's better seating and the benefits fit, I'd be willing to fork out an extra £15, especially if it where a separate supplement that wouldn't show on my expenses claim, as they have set spending limits and a near ban on 1st class travel.

 

[90019]

Why is there such an obsession with tables?

There are plenty of us who actively avoid sitting at tables when we're travelling alone or with one other person, and don't enjoy having to play footsie a load of strangers.
Personally, any class on a train that has all tables with no airline seats available is a class that I won't be using. As far as I'm concerned, First and Club Class with all tables is a crap idea.

 

[snail]

Translated: We realised that a lot of workers and companies are resistant to putting first class travel on their expense claims so we are introducing Club Class so they can pay more without the embarassing accounting trail.

Nothing wrong with that. I just about remember 'Silver Standard' in the last days of BR.

 

[HH]

We all know that here, but if First Group want more seating, how would they manage it?

Off the top of my head:

* Take out the shop and make it a standard buffet (or remove totally).

* Change a First Class Carriage to Standard

* Rearrange the seating in some way (eg change tilt, airline-style seats, etc)

The first is almost certain; the second would be popular and sensible on most services; the third unpopular with those on longer journeys, but if the crowding was bad enough might be accepted as the lesser of two evils.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Would it be even possible to have separate tickets for such a 'Club Class'; could the ticket retailing and revenue distribution systems cope with it? Or would First have to do it by way of a supplement?

It's a dedicated fare; no problems.

 

[Nym]

Why is there such an obsession with tables?

There are plenty of us who actively avoid sitting at tables when we're travelling alone or with one other person, and don't enjoy having to play footsie a load of strangers.
Personally, any class on a train that has all tables with no airline seats available is a class that I won't be using. As far as I'm concerned, First and Club Class with all tables is a crap idea.

Same, I don't like people when I'm travelling so the only time I ever use a table (frequently on LDPE service) is when want to have my laptop out to do some work, as there aren't sockets at normal seats..

Off the top of my head:

* Take out the shop and make it a standard buffet (or remove totally).

* Change a First Class Carriage to Standard

* Rearrange the seating in some way (eg change tilt, airline-style seats, etc)

The first is almost certain; the second would be popular and sensible on most services; the third unpopular with those on longer journeys, but if the crowding was bad enough might be accepted as the lesser of two evils.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's a dedicated fare; no problems.

You can't really remove the shop and put seats in, if I'm thinking right there's a distinct lack of windows...

The 2nd is likely, or would be changed to 2nd and 2nd becomes 3rd.

It's already rather high density seating IMO, can't make it much worse, unless it's for the 3rd class section...

 

[dvboy]

2+3 seating is a ridiculous suggestion for a Voyager or Pendolino.

Even London Midland have admitted 2+3 seating does not work, with 20% of the seats going unoccupied anyway, they try really hard to keep the 350/2s they are now stuck with on the London commuter services.

 

[snail]

Less tables = no tables!

Less tables = fewer tables!

 

[HH]

Agreed. 2+3 won't be an option. I'd put real money on it.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Perhaps this is related to the fact that the services on many routes have been so successful that they are, at leisure travel times, so horrendously overcrowded and regularly leave people behind on Friday and Sunday afternoons that people are voting with their feet and going elsewhere. First Class is regularly declassified due to the overcrowding, thus not encouraging people to purchase the higher value fare and on board facilities such as catering and toilets cannot cope with the volume of patronage. A victim of its own success perhaps? More capacity is needed as a matter of urgency on many of these routes - something that 10 x 4 car 350's will not really solve.

That is exactly what it is, go and look at the passenger numbers on the route before TPE came in and after, they have been a victim of their own success, but it is amusing when I hear people moan about the fact First have cut capacity on TPE by introducing smaller trains, and now there are vastly less people using the franchise than before it because they are fed up with the greedy penny pinching, when in fact the overcrowding here, as well as with FGW and FCC, is due to a rapid increase in passenger numbers, but that doesn't make for a good rant does it.

Standard class (third class in effect) high density 2+3 bus seats. No tables.

Don't tell me, they are going to speak to FGW and get them to rip out the seats from the pacers and put them in the WC fleet, come on get a grip you know that is not going to happen really but are just scaremongering like Branson.

Welcome to the forum btw.

People say how bad the seating is on FGW HST's, well they're a damn sight better than Voyager/Pendo seats and has far more legroom for a start!

I actually like the FGW seating, the people who are moaning about the seating tend to be the same ones who moan there is not enough tables, who also happen to moan about overcrowding. There is an irony in there somewhere.

 

[snail]

Would it be even possible to have separate tickets for such a 'Club Class'; could the ticket retailing and revenue distribution systems cope with it? Or would First have to do it by way of a supplement?

Chiltern manage it with their Business Zone at a £20 one way (reduced on lower demand services). It's essentially First without the frills.

I see the WC Club class being not that far removed from the TPE First - comfy, larger seat and the occasional free tea or coffee. Snacks and sandwiches if you're lucky.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

We all know that here, but if First Group want more seating, how would they manage it?

By putting extra seats in coach G for a start. Isn't most of the extra seating coming from the Pendolino lengthening anyway?

 

[HH]

Isn't most of the extra seating coming from the Pendolino lengthening anyway?

Of course. But still, it won't be enough on First's growth figures.

 

[broadgage]

Hasn't that been more by accident than an actual strategy?

Would 2+3 seating even physically fit inside a Pendo's dimensions?

I believe that in the case of services from London liverpool street, that it was an actual strategy.
12 car train with 2+2 seating=bad, more expensive to lease
8 car train with high density 2+3 seating=good, cheaper to lease.

Of course 2+3 seating would fit if the seats and gangway are made small enough. "thousands of extra seats a day"

 

[All Line Rover]

Less tables = fewer tables!

Which equates to how many tables in Coach A?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why is there such an obsession with tables?

There are plenty of us who actively avoid sitting at tables when we're travelling alone or with one other person, and don't enjoy having to play footsie a load of strangers.
Personally, any class on a train that has all tables with no airline seats available is a class that I won't be using. As far as I'm concerned, First and Club Class with all tables is a crap idea.

Groups and families generally prefer tables. Pendolinos also have sockets at tables only, which is a stupid design flaw that I hope will be rectified when they go in for a refurb. Voyagers have always had sockets at every pair of seats.

 

[Mojo]

Of course the danger with an intermediate class between First and Standard is that companies/individuals which may have previously paid for First class due to the extra space now only pay for "Club class" as they aren't that fussed about the extra food, booze, etc.

 

[merlodlliw]

Why is there such an obsession with tables?

There are plenty of us who actively avoid sitting at tables when we're travelling alone or with one other person, and don't enjoy having to play footsie a load of strangers.
Personally, any class on a train that has all tables with no airline seats available is a class that I won't be using. As far as I'm concerned, First and Club Class with all tables is a crap idea.

So you wont be travelling on the Wag Express from September then,personally I prefer tables to awful airline seats.

Bob

 

[Derry]

Please remember platforms are only leased to TOC's by NWR,so it will come down biggest spender,ie First will take plats 1/2 at Glasgow and use let more of there local services