The "Rail fare increase and related discussions" thread

[PR1Berske]

Today's the day this annual round of fun and games begin so here's a thread for discussing the facts, figures, inevitable mis-reporting and for connected purposes

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19251068

Rail fares rises set to be revealed

Some rail fares in England will rise by 6.2% in January - about double the rate of inflation - although other price rises may be higher.

The Retail Prices Index (RPI) measure of inflation in July - which stood at 3.2% - is used to calculate the rises.

Some English fares will rise by RPI plus 3%, while in Scotland they will go up by RPI plus 1%. Wales has yet to set a figure for its increase.

The extra money is helping to fund huge investment across the network.

There are no fare increases currently planned in Northern Ireland, where fares are not linked to RPI.

Chance of higher rises

The figures for planned rises in England and Scotland are an average across regulated tickets, which make up half of all fares. These regulated fares include season tickets and off-peak intercity journeys.

Some passengers could see their journey prices rising by more than the average, as train companies are allowed to increase them by up to five percentage points more, as long as they cut ticket prices elsewhere.

Passengers will not be told yet how prices will change on their specific route. The latest figure sets the template for this rise.

Mike Hewitson, of watchdog Passenger Focus, said: "This is another inflation-busting increase.

"There is only so much you can squeeze passengers. The government needs to think again about the plus 3% [formula]."

BBC transport correspondent Richard Westcott says passengers and taxpayers used to split the cost of running the railways, with both sides paying about half each, but successive ministers have cut the amount of government funding and that has resulted in regular fare rises.... (more)

This email was doing the rounds yesterday, by the way:

FareFail campaigns@tssa.org.uk

Dear Supporter,

This coming Tuesday 14th the latest Retail Price Index figures will be released – meaning that we will know for certain that rail fares will be put up by Boris, Cameron and Osborne by up to 6%. The Tory-led Government are committed to RPI plus 3%!

Enough is enough – these latest fares hikes follow years and years of above inflation fares increases. This issue became the totemic debate of the London Mayoral Election, because ordinary people are fed up with being hit by an additional tax just to get to work, a tax that is anti-Green as it encourages people back into cars, and hits the poorest.

At the same time the rail industry is facing unprecedented staffing cut backs at stations up and down the country. The Olympics have shown without doubt, that passengers want staff on stations – not ghost stations. That the value of a human face to help with travel problems, or to buy a ticket from, are what rail customers want. We cannot accept fares going up, and staffing levels going down.

So we are asking you to join us this coming Tuesday morning before work, for a protest and rally against rail fare rises and rail staff cuts at a station near you.

To find the nearest station with a protest or an action please look at the Action for Rail website here: http://actionforrail.org/get-involved/

Over forty stations across the country will see activity tomorrow. Join us for just an hour.

If you are in London, please join us at Waterloo Station tomorrow.

Joining us will be Climate Rush, Campaign for better Transport, Fair Fares Now, #Farefail, the TSSA, and Action for Rail.

7.30am Waterloo Station under the main clock – for leafleting volunteers.

8.30am for the main rally and demo at the York Road/Sutton Walk entrance.

Our contact on the day is ****** on ********. Or at *****************************************
Hope to see you there!

The Together for Transport Team

 

[WatcherZero]

RPI jumped from 2.8 to 3.2% so we are looking at 6.2% base rise, variation of some fares in the 1.2%-11.2% range.

 

[hluraven]

I look forward to the outcries of 11.2% rises while the "news" story ignores the 1.2% ones. Annual fun during silly season.

 

[yorkie]

This is an attack on all of us, making rail travel unaffordable for many people. If the cost of motoring was going up by a similar amount then it could be seen as fair, but the reality is that the real cost of motoring is going down while train travel goes up.

The solution is to research for cheaper tickets, using MSE's 'Tickety Split', and trainscanbecheaper.info to research possible "splits" and brfares.com to look up ticket prices and restrictions (in a fraction of the time it takes to look up fares on the booking sites) to ensure better value fares are being bought than the fares that the TOCs want you to pay.

It is well worth joining us at one of our fares workshops where ideas are shared on how to legally avoid ludicrously expensive fares by purchasing alternative, valid, tickets that allow journeys to be made at lower cost than the absolutely scandalous fares they charge us for popular journeys.

For example a passenger taking the 0850 Whitby to Middlesbrough train (that doesn't even arrive at Middlesbrough until 1017, and doesn't get you to the East Coast Main Line until even later) who asks for a ticket to Sheffield is asked to pay over £100 because it is considered a "peak" journey. All the customer has to do is ask to split at York and the price reduces to UNDER A THIRD of the price they want you to pay. By ensuring you can find these deals, you can beat the insane price rises and, in fact, lower your costs substantially.

However the major "loopholes" that involve buying a ticket to go FURTHER that costs LESS, are best avoided being published because these loopholes can sometimes be removed by the TOCs. Their idea of removing an anomaly is not to lower the ludicrously expensive fare. Oh no, their idea of removing the anomaly is - in perhaps 90% of cases - to increase the reasonable fare to be extortionate or change the routeing/validity of the ticket so it is no longer useful for the shorter journey that attracts a premium.

I will give one example of how you can beat the rises (that, unlike other examples, isn't in too much danger of the TOCs increasing the fare for): passenger travelling from York to Weeton (only valid via Harrogate) currently has to face a ridiculous £11.30 fare for an off peak day return, and that's before the unfair rises so I dread to think what this fare will be in 2013. It is cheaper and quicker to drive, for sure. A passenger can beat those rises by buying a ticket one stop further, to Horsforth (via Harrogate) priced at £10.30. Even if prices rise by around 10%, your fare will at least be frozen in price.

 

[mallard]

This coming Tuesday 14th the latest Retail Price Index figures will be released – meaning that we will know for certain that rail fares will be put up by Boris, Cameron and Osborne by up to 6%. The Tory-led Government are committed to RPI plus 3%!

Ah yes, blame the Tories... Not the international financial crisis, increasing energy costs, inefficiently run railway, etc. I very much doubt Labour would be doing any different if they were in charge, but at least their cozy relationship with the unions and press would probably keep things quieter.

I don't see what Boris has to do with it though, the TfL fare rises (which are the only ones he has any control over), are lower.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Drive people off railways, no need to upgrade loads of money saved simples. :roll:

I had an arguement with someone the other day saying why should her taxes pay for public transport. My reply, 'I'll take every passenger and every bit of freight off the railways and buses and put them as lorries and cars. You drive round for a few weeks, see how you feel then....'

 

[wilsontown]

Ah yes, blame the Tories... Not the international financial crisis, increasing energy costs, inefficiently run railway, etc. I very much doubt Labour would be doing any different if they were in charge, but at least their cozy relationship with the unions and press would probably keep things quieter.

I'd agree that Labour would probably doing the same thing (this is just the continuation of a Labour policy if I remember correctly), but it does seem entirely reasonable to blame the government for government policy.

 

[michael769]

This is an attack on all of us, making rail travel unaffordable for many people. If the cost of motoring was going up by a similar amount then it could be seen as fair, but the reality is that the real cost of motoring is going down while train travel goes up.

This I agree with entirely. While the idea that rail travelers should pay the full costs of rail travel sounds reasonable in principle, it completely ignores the huge economic and social benefits that the railways bring to the country.

It is not just rail travelers that benefit for affordable rail travelers, but every else. For example motorists benefit from reduced congestion (imagine the impact if the thousands of commuters pouring into major mainline stations all drove instead), and everyone benefits from the reduced pollution and noise.

 

[rdwarr]

Are the new Season Ticket prices available yet?

 

[swt_passenger]

Are the new Season Ticket prices available yet?

No - they'll only be issued about 1 month ahead of the changes, as usual.

Anything you read in the press about 'season ticket prices from X will be £NNN' is based on the same calculation anyone could do using RPI + 3%...

 

[NSEFAN]

I was having a discussion with a collegue about fares today. I was explaining all the places the money goes (leasing companies, the government, the lawyers, etc), but I don't actually know who takes the biggest slice of the cake.

Considering the TOCs only make a 3-4% profit, one has to wonder where the money is going. If anyone has a rough idea, it would be interesting to see it in the public domain.

 

[Stats]

This is an attack on all of us, making rail travel unaffordable for many people. If the cost of motoring was going up by a similar amount then it could be seen as fair, but the reality is that the real cost of motoring is going down while train travel goes up.

The irony is that the biggest contribution to the increase in the RPI this month is motoring costs, and specifically the cost of buying a car. The cost of Air Fares was the other major contributing factor.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ah yes, blame the Tories... Not the international financial crisis, increasing energy costs, inefficiently run railway, etc. I very much doubt Labour would be doing any different if they were in charge, but at least their cozy relationship with the unions and press would probably keep things quieter.

I doubt that Labour would have introduced the RPI+3 formula and it was the Tories that reversed Labour's policy that abolished the "basket of fares" concept.

 

[swt_passenger]

I doubt that Labour would have introduced the RPI+3 formula.

They did introduce it though - they used it on the Southeastern franchise for 5 years...

 

[merlodlliw]

Note the increase is smaller in Wales, same in Scotland

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Note the increase is smaller in Wales, same in Scotland

I don't think it is confirmed for Wales yet.
Also there's no case for a different increase here - WG does not own the budget.

BBC now reporting RPI+1 for Wales.
Without knowing where the money goes I can't think of a reason why Wales gets off with a lower increase.
Nor do I know the scope of "Wales" in this context - is it just the ATW list of local fares within Wales?
What happens to Manchester-Cardiff, say?
Do FGW/VT take any notice?

 

[tbtc]

You could probably copy and paste most of the media reaction from year to year about this (cue mass outrage etc).

The two main facts are that the Government are trying to pay less of the overall share for rail (hence pushing more of the burden onto passengers) and that rail costs are going up by well above inflation (privatisation hasn't brought about the efficiencies it was supposed to - from infrastructure to staffing to train leasing fees - everything is stupidly expensive).

However one difference this year is that at least we have some "cherry" to look forward to, in terms of the CP5 investment. Not on every line, and not for a few years, but at least some people will understand that the increased costs in January 2013 are partly paying for future improvements.

Enough is enough – these latest fares hikes follow years and years of above inflation fares increases. This issue became the totemic debate of the London Mayoral Election

...and yet people still voted for Boris.

I look forward to the outcries of 11.2% rises while the "news" story ignores the 1.2% ones. Annual fun during silly season.

Yeah, that irritates me too - people have no concept of "average" - BBC Radio Sheffield were suggesting that a Sheffield - Leeds season ticket (i.e. one of the most popular season tickets in this neck of the woods) would go up 10%, when the reality is that we have no idea which fares will go up by more than 6%/ which fares will go up by exactly 6%/ which fares will go up by less.

 

[Skymonster]

This is an attack on all of us, making rail travel unaffordable for many people. If the cost of motoring was going up by a similar amount then it could be seen as fair, but the reality is that the real cost of motoring is going down while train travel goes up.

That, Yorkie, is a load of doo-doo... I wish the cost of motoring was ony going up by RPI+3%... Insurance up by an average of 30% last year, diesel up from £1.31 to £1.38 a litre in the last month - that's 5% in a month. You find any party who will guarantee to fix like-for-like annual motoring cost increases at only RPI+3% and they'd get the vote of almost everyone who owns a car. I just wish the cost increases of driving wer guaranteed as much as travel by rail is.

I am today travelling from Notingham to London first class for £17... If that goes up by 6% to £18 it'll still be excellent value and I really won't care about the increase at all. Even if it goes up by 11% or more - so what it'll still be good value at £19. OK, that's an advance and 6% on the full FOR is a lot, but these fares are paid by corporate expenses and again it doesn't matter. The people who are hurt are commuters - but as I said they still get a reasonable deal in comparison to the spiralling cost of motoring and I have absolutely no desire to find their commuting through taxation when the lovcation of my workplace doesn't give me the choice of using rail or bus. If you really feel that rail passengers are been shafted and it's all going car drivers way, buy a cheap car - ill bet you soon decide that rail will still offer good value.

If the rail network was just standing still and not being improved, then i acknowledge that fare increases aligned with RPI would be fair. But it isn't. The network is seeing huge investment to support improvements. All this rail investment (HS2, CP5 etc) has to be paid for somehow and if it's designed to make rail passenger's experience more pleasant or easier then the funding needs to come at least in part from rail passengers. And if that means fare rises above RPI, so be it as far as I'm concerned.

Andy

 

[PR1Berske]

From the BBC, updated with "figures" (not necessarily "facts", of course)

Some rail fares in England will rise by 6.2% in January - about double the rate of inflation - although other price rises may be higher.

The Retail Prices Index (RPI) measure of inflation in July - which stood at 3.2% - is used to calculate the rises.

Some English fares will rise by RPI plus 3%, while in Scotland they will go up by RPI plus 1%. Wales has yet to set a figure for its increase.

The extra money is helping to fund huge investment across the network.

There are no fare increases currently planned in Northern Ireland, where fares are not linked to RPI, after a 3% rise in April.

The decision to have different formulas for fare rises is a political one. In Scotland, 75% of the cost of the railways comes from a government subsidy - higher than in England.

The figures for planned rises in England and Scotland are an average across regulated tickets, which make up half of all fares. These regulated fares include season tickets and off-peak intercity journeys. In Scotland, this does not include the busy shuttle service between Edinburgh and Glasgow.

 

[yorksrob]

I particularly fear for the middle distance leisure market, i.e. those fares that aren't really short hops, but not long enough to justify advanced purchase travel. Yorkie offers some excellent examples of ticket splits that can save money, however I suspect that the casual traveller will not be prepared to research deeply into these and will simply choose the car.

It's also this middle distance leisure market that the Regional Railway needs to be developing in particular in order to improve it's viability.

 

[hluraven]

They did introduce it though - they used it on the Southeastern franchise for 5 years...

IIRC the introduced it for Southeastern only, due to HS1, with the rest of the country on RPI +1%.

 

[coupwotcoup]

Loved this quote from an ATOC spokeswoman...


"To provide someone at a ticket office with every single permutation to get from A to B is simply impractical and would lead to unmanageable queues at stations”

Says it all really..

 

[swt_passenger]

IIRC the introduced it for Southeastern only, due to HS1, with the rest of the country on RPI +1%.

It wasn't specifically for HS1. It was to pay for investment on the wider SE network, and to bring their fares more into line with others in the SE.

Although the media generally reported it as being solely to do with HS1, the reasoning was given in the franchise briefing, and back in Jan 2005 it was referring to improvements in the past tense:

a fares regime that allows tickets to be priced at RPI+3% for the first five years of the franchise, before falling back to RPI+1%, to reflect the £600 million rolling stock and infrastructure investment in the area in recent years...

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/integrated-kent-franchise/gratedkentfranchisestake3338.pdf

Whatever the true purpose in the SE, the policy of increasing fares by RPI + X% (+1% on the wider railway at that time) was already in place in 2005. The fact that labour targeted the +3% in a specific area only means they could quite reasonably ask if the Conservatives were making investments across the whole of England and Wales - and they'd probably reply that they are...

 

[tbtc]

Does anyone have a table showing historic percentage rises (so that they can be compared against the relevant inflation at the time?

(not on a "route by route" basis, just the national average)

 

[Pen Mill]

Considering the TOCs only make a 3-4% profit, one has to wonder where the money is going. If anyone has a rough idea, it would be interesting to see it in the public domain.

The article in the opening post states that it is going to help the funding of major new investment so I surmise that the government has a method of creaming what they want off , don't ask me how.

EDIT , perhaps it is coming from the inflated premiums that are being discussed with regard to the re-letting of franchises?

 

[HH]

How the government gets the money is simple. In every franchise there is a clause which says that changes in fares policy (and elsewhere) will be balanced by a change in premium. The TOCs get the pain, the government gets the gain.

 

[Donny Dave]

This is an attack on all of us, making rail travel unaffordable for many people. If the cost of motoring was going up by a similar amount then it could be seen as fair, but the reality is that the real cost of motoring is going down while train travel goes up.

Classic case of just focusing on the price of fuel there and ignoring other factors. :roll:

The price of a journey by car can vary from day to day simply because of fuel prices. I note that they are creeping up again. 2 pence a litre doesn't sound very much, but for operators of commercial vehicles, it can be a nightmare.

Then there is insurance. Insurance rates have just started to fall again after several years of rises, and depending on circumstances this can be very expensive. In some cases, it will be the biggest outlay for a driver of a car.

The MOT, while being a fixed price is also compulsary. And don't forget the cost of maintaining your car as well. For a simple interim service on a Volkswagon, that will set you back £129.

Vehicle Excise Duty can be a big outlay as well, depending on what you drive. For example, the car I have (a 1.2 Renault Clio), this is ~£120 a year.

For me personally, it has cost ~£1200 this year just to use my car, and that's before I put any fuel in it and do any repairs/servicing that may be needed!

Of course, all this is included when you buy a ticket to travel on the railway. You don't have to worry about keeping the train fit to run, fill it up as needed, tax/insure/etc, as the TOC concerned will be doing all that!

PS. For driving a car, how many forms of tax do you have to pay? The answer is 4. Fuel duty and VAT on fuel. Vehicle excise duty and insurance premium tax (currently 6% for car insurance).

Anyway, I'm off to read the rest of the topic after Yorkie's post, and I'll respond to anything else that I see the need to.

 

[SS4]

You have to wonder why we're not re-nationalising the railway when privatisation has obviously failed. Someone more cynical than I might suggest certain members of the government have vested interests in letting this farce continue.

 

[ainsworth74]

Out of curiosity what are your criteria for failure?

 

[JohnB57]

Cynics corner.

1. Fares increases are based on July inflation figures
2. July inflation is, against all expectations, higher than forecast
3. The resulting increase is therefore higher than average inflation would demand
4. Despite already subsidising each passenger mile by much more than England, the Welsh and Scottish governments have voted to increase fares by a lower amount
5. Scotland will be holding an independence referendum in a couple of years, the nub of which will be propoganda based on "better away from England"
6. Wales may well follow, based on Scotland's experience

Does anyone here remember "Yes Minister"?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

1. Despite already subsidising each passenger mile by much more than England, the Welsh and Scottish governments have voted to increase fares by a lower amount
2. Scotland will be holding an independence referendum in a couple of years, the nub of which will be propoganda based on "better away from England"
3. Wales may well follow, based on Scotland's experience

DfT could always cancel electrification west of Bristol...
The Welsh Government does not own the rail budget for Wales, DfT does.
The subsidy is a UK one.
WG manages the ATW franchise, but with UK money.

If you look at Scotland, their CP6 rail development plans have been cut back because they don't have the money.