The Great Circular European Railway Challenge

[Mark_Lester]

well, the discovery of this tram, on top of a load of other no-can-do issues elsewhere on the map, sort of invalidates the cascais mission. Even if this tram line is rusting away, cascais clearly wasn't, until a couple of years ago at the least, the traditional western end of fixed rail transport on the mainland. it would take probably 4 hours+ to do that tram, so that's a non starter.

so we need to work out a kind of "walk down regent street, down haymarket, left into trafalgar and down whitehall" route through belem, which includes this bun shop. note that we aren't necessarily going to be arriving from the west from cascais now. There's a tram inland about 1km which i'd listed to get back, though I guess it's probably more logical now to get that one out, then walk down hill into belem.
we also need to work out what's the supply situation at oriente, it's all steel and glass round there from what i can see, but if it's "as busy as grand central" then there has to be a supermarket in some mall shirley.
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also, if we are going to leave from oriente, then it's logical to get off there and dump the bags.
there' s the typical cafe/food court level in oriente it says on here,
http://barlaventostravelblog.blogspot.co.uk/2008/05/lisbon-oriente-station-store-luggage.html
so one thing to locate is some purveyor of fine port, which I'm sure wont be hard to do but needs pinpointing beforehand and weaving into the plan.
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not sure now about oriente as a terminal, no pingo doce and it's a lot nicer outside than in. might be better just to get the 16:05 out of santa apolonia and spend 15 mins on the platform.

 

[Donbacsi]

I don't know where I got this link, it might even have been here. But in case you haven't seen it, it looks to be helpful especially for the Balkans.
http://europetrainsguide.com/Countries/Hungary/Hungary-MAV.html

 

[Mark_Lester]

i bothered to do a bit of wiki reading for the last leg back home and bumped that one out a bit, i was wilting come the 14th post.
did you know that the medway viaduct is the longest high speed rail bridge on God's earth ?.
I stuck up a thread on that europe trains guide forum, wasnt expecting much but got a great repsonse from one of the admins. they specialise in eastern euro stuff and he picked over all our trains from prague to nova gorica. gave me a few train names and fixed a few timing typos.
he doesnt think 53 mins across bratsilava is enough, we may go for an 8:20 that takes the north bank route direct to bratislava main. also he says you can get off at meilding on the way into wien. i looked, it comes in on the south of the city then loops round, so we can get off at meilding, it takes 23 minutes to get round to westbahnhof. it wil be early doors though, so may be we just stay on till the terminus.
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also, we have a pro-standard photographer, good mate of one of the definites "been dying to do something like this for ages".
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did you know that the medway viaduct is the longest high speed rail bridge on God's earth ?.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danyang–Kunshan_Grand_Bridge
is a high speed bridge and is also the worlds longest of any kind, so I'll go fix wikipedia's HS1 page.
ah, it says "rail span" on the medway bridge page, which may be right, that chinese bridge is just daft, it's a hundred miles long.

also
our east euro trains expert also says the skopje-belgrade train is usually late, but no more than 2 hours, which is good on both counts.
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and damn, I'm going to have to tone my claims for the Venice bridge right down now, that Pontchartrain bridge was originally built in 1886. quite a bit of it is swamp and ended up getting filled in, but that still left 5 3/4 miles of proper water spanning bridge
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with over 5 hours now in Rome in the new schedule, I guess we can add another country.
I did look at doing Kosovo, though that's debatable anyway. but the Vatican has it's own top level internet domain, so it must be a country, wiki says so.

 

[Glenmutchkin]

with over 5 hours now in Rome in the new schedule, I guess we can add another country.
I did look at doing Kosovo, though that's debatable anyway. but the Vatican has it's own top level internet domain, so it must be a country, wiki says so.

But it's not part of the Interrail network. As far as I remember it doesn't even have trams.

Anyway. Where did 5 hours in Rome come from or have I missed something?

 

[Mark_Lester]

we're sleeping in Venice remember, even if we leave at 2 we'll be in Rome before 6 and the train out isnt till 11.
I may still include it as ¼ of a country on the mission statement, but either way a photo of a swiss guard is worth sticking on the sight seeing itinerary.
the "derelict buildings" are all lit up at night and that seems to be the best time to see them, so we should do all that stuff a bit later anyway.

 

[Glenmutchkin]

That's OK - I'm looking forward to lunch in Venice.

 

[Donbacsi]

is indeed a country, the smallest in the world at about one square mile and around 886 residents. Of course it doesn't have a tram, but I believe you can ride one almost right up to it. You can also send post cards from there with Vatican stamps.

 

[Mark_Lester]

Don, can you remember the name of that pension you recommended off st mark's ?.
We are roosting in Venice now of course, so we need a proper stop, and of course Venice isnt as easy of the likes of sarajevo and sofia to find a decent cheapy. We had thought of using the YHA on guidecca but I reckon it's going to work out at 40 euro sheckles a head anyway, and the tripadvisors on it are awful, the place needs fumigating.

FYI I found these two for the balkan bit
http://www.canapeconnection.com/
http://hostelsrcesarajeva.ba/
which between them have the best tripadvisors I've ever seen for cheap beds.

 

[mickpop]

But it's not part of the Interrail network. As far as I remember it doesn't even have trams.

Anyway. Where did 5 hours in Rome come from or have I missed something?

The Vatican does have its own railhead - two 300m tracks provide access to goods and occasional papal specials. I seem to recall seeing a very recent reference to one of the latter, presumably using stock and motive power from the Italian state railway. I suppose I could try to blag my way in on the basis of the name - a distant relative perhaps?

See - www.sinfin.net/railways/world/vatican/vaticanrail.html

 

[Mark_Lester]

well that's official then, 24 countries
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Vatican_City
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direct train at 12 and 42 every hour from termini to san pietro, then a walkway along the side of the spur over this viaduct and right up to the Vatican walls.
ooh, if you look on google street view there is actually a two car multiple unit that is on the spur itself. what a tease
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not street view as such, but this helicopter stuff they do when you zoom in. not sure if it's some kind of special Papal multiple unit, although Ben' uses a rather nicer one (he's used the line several times, German you see). It's not standard Rome livery, looks like it should be running round Mumbai actually.
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ah, here we go, so it is just a normal train, shunted onto the line to absolve itself of any timetabling sins it may have incurred

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ah sorry, that one's actually in helsinki, still no clearer.
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well, as it turns out, the italians did a fine line in EMUs, this one in particular being totally groovy

I located the italian railfans and I am told that

the train that you're looking for is a 2-railcars trainset, owned by FCU (Ferrovia Centrale Umbra), and used by Seatrain for his touristic services from Civitavecchia to Rome.

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I did my Vatican post as an excuse to round up all the capitals and found this pic of the entrance

that little yellow thing would do the job just nicely.
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I've been looking for a place in Venice some more. There are loads of these pension type places, we're going to be able to get this done for 25 quid each by the looks of it, which I think is pretty damn good considering it's the original tourist destination.
I found "Dimora Serenissima", which is very near the station, which obviously has bag drop advantages. We could return to there for 1:30 and still catch the 13:57 train.
You mentioned lunch in Venice, had you anything specific in mind ?.

 

[Glenmutchkin]

You mentioned lunch in Venice, had you anything specific in mind ?.

I did wonder about the railway carriage place. Let me do a bit of research. Might be a bit pricey and we may be a bit early but let's see. "Dimora Serenissima" sounds the very dab. Do we have to pretend to be Juve fans?

Off a training run tomorrow. Depart 6.54 - change Stirling and Inverness arrive Thurso sometime p.m. Return Thursday.
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Did you spot that Dimora Serenissima doesn't include brekker or 3 euros per head tourist tax in their quoted rate. Still not expensive.

Forget the railway carriage - this is what TripAdvisor says

http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restau...367-Reviews-Vini_da_Arturo-Venice_Veneto.html

 

[Mark_Lester]

yeah I saw the 3 euro tourist tax, and I think I saw the train carriage reviews too, TA is even more random on eateries than it is for sleeperies, though that is a fairly comprehensive pasting.
I think the group are certain to split up in the morning. I'll be all up for the dawn patrol on the vaporettos as that's probably the only time you'll be able to get on them and grab a nice breezy spot and generally dash about.
I can't find a number for Dimora Serenissima, but I'll get Matteo on the case anyway. I can certainly live without a hotel breakfast. What's the Juve angle ?

 

[Glenmutchkin]

What's the Juve angle ?

Somehow I had convinced myself that "La Serenissima" was the Juventus FC nickname. I can find no evidence to support this delusion.

 

[Mark_Lester]

I got a reply from these guys
http://www.anticariva.com/
350 euros for the whole place, sleeps 10 or 11, I think they only have 3 rooms. if there's more she can stick some in the "small hotel next door". We'll know in September who is hot to trot and who's not. Statistically some of the gang wont mind going seriously up market for the night anyway, so this place will probably handle us.
you get fed too.

 

[Glenmutchkin]

That looks OK if they will hang on to our bags for an extra hour or two.

 

[Mark_Lester]

That looks OK if they will hang on to our bags for an extra hour or two.

I need to check out what the bed situation actually is, there's a lot of double bed on those photo's. Ah, chaia came back, they can do 8 single beds and a double sofa bed, so basically 9 unless we have a couple. which we don't have or want.

I found this place, but we're now already up to 50 bucks
http://www.hoteldallamora.it/English/HOME english.html

I mailed these guys also
http://www.aironehotel.com/sent_request.htm

Even with only 9 in the Antica it's still coming in as the best/cheapest option at under 40 bucks, plus this tax, which seems to vary between 1 and 3 euros depending on the hotel ??.

 

[Glenmutchkin]

Did you see that KS has posted on the GCIRC thread on IM? Must dash. Train to catch.

 

[Mark_Lester]

Did you see that KS has posted on the GCIRC thread on IM? Must dash. Train to catch.

some guy wants to come, he works in an economically stable part of the planet so he ought to be able to afford it, but as you'll see, I'm not in the mood for time-wasters. If he can work out how to contact me directly (how flippin hard can that be ?) then I'll entertain him between now and when I want to see a token cheque off everyone.

I have officially dumped Cascais btw. No-one seems too bothered about that. We'd be facing south from the beach anyway, and I really do fancy clocking off al these funiculars instead.
So, not including local stuff, we are now exactly 50 trains. In theory we've lost 60km off the plan, but this was really local stuff anyway, I'm sure the GPS tracker is going to read over 17,000 km when we get back. I'll bet that Borealis does a lot more than 1333k for instance (I'll go waste some time and try and work that out)
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oh, I came up with 1324, not including the loop round Koln, so I'll stick with what you had, where did you get that ?

 

[KS]

Hi Mark and Others planning GCERC:

I just joined this Forum!

I am hoping I can do the GCERC tour; if everything works out OK.

Excited!

-KS

 

[Mark_Lester]

I was a bit rude there about "some guy wants to come". RoyalBob is for real, and further more, KS, our esteemed sole Indian rep on GCIRC, not including nari, is now very seriously considering coming. Budget isnt an issue with either of them, which is really my only issue. Bandannas are banned though.

That said, we should still go to the trouble of working out what all the tube passes are going to cost, for SEO purposes if nothing else. "Metro Pass prices for all European capital cities" is a certainty.

I think the transport costs off what Ruth can handle are as follows:-

Brussels, two tube tickets, but actually your pass will get you from midi (where the fast trains stop and start) to central (where the grand place is) and back anyway.
Copenhagen, about 3 bus journeys.
Stockholm a bus, a metro, and a ferry across the harbour.
Berlin. Brandenburg gate and back, so 2 bus/metro journeys. ed will come back wth some plans, there might be something constructive we can do in the morning, but with "Berlin Night Life" as the itemised activity, just getting up in time for the 10:45 train will be an achievement in itself.
Prague, metro pass
Vienna, two metro journeys.
Budapest, metro pass
Sofia, maybe a couple of shared taxis, wont be expensive. the tram is very cheap.
we then need a bus over to skopje.
Ploce to Sarajevo bus, that might be £15.
venice, 24 hour vaporetto pass.
Rome, 2 metro tickets. It will be free for us to get to the vatican, we then need to get to the Colosseum and then back to termini.
Barcelona, 2 or 3 metros (I've abandoned any daft ideas about doing roller coasters)
Madrid, same.
Lisbon, 1 day metro pass
Paris, 1 day metro pass.

I've added up the estimated hotel costs AO in Berlin is actually more than Narvik, they've got 6 bedders up in the Arctic, should come in under £15, so I think I need to make sure we've got these bagged. There's other places in Narvik too, but a chalet on a campsite has to be the place to be when it's 24 hour sunlight.

Narvik £14 (800 NOK for a 6 bed cabin)
Berlin £18
Sofia £15
Sarajevo £15
Venice £40
so that's £102!

So, short of any exorbitant trips to restaurants, there's just no way we're going to get through £2,000.

 

[KS]

Mark, thanks for all the details so far. I am quite keen to do this (barring any hurdles or family event clashes).

Though I have been reading all updates on FB and your Blog, I have being doing that as a 'maybe' rather than 'going'. That difference meant I missed some important details. Now started going thru all the old posts everywhere. There used to be a thread on some euro-rail forum ... is that still active?

-KS (Kothanda)

 

[Glenmutchkin]

KS

Welcome

Dave W

 

[Mark_Lester]

Mark, thanks for all the details so far. I am quite keen to do this (barring any hurdles or family event clashes).

Though I have been reading all updates on FB and your Blog, I have being doing that as a 'maybe' rather than 'going'. That difference meant I missed some important details. Now started going thru all the old posts everywhere. There used to be a thread on some euro-rail forum ... is that still active?

-KS (Kothanda)

bloody hell, 87's in Bulgaria, now 31's in Mumbai.

Dave did a quick scan of the metro fares, it's basically about 5 euros each, except the boat-bus pass in Venice which will be worth every penny, we'll get up early and do a good session on them before relaxing/eating and then snoozing on our super train down to Rome.
this viva viagra pass sounds intriguing

Brussels Metro - pre bought 2 Euros per trip

Copenhagen – One of the trips is a local train. Is that covered by the pass? I thought that it was then waterbus and walk?

Stockholm - I think that I saw that you had do ne the detail

Prague metro/trams 110 Krona – about £4

Vienna Metro – pre bought 2 Euros per trip (2 stop short trip 1 euro)

Budapest 24 hour pass – 1500 HUF c 5 euros ?

Sofia - There was something on Rail UK about a guy getting fined for not buying a ticket for his rucsac

Venice 24 hour pass - 18 Euros

Rome - 1 euro per trip

Barcelona – Depends o n zones http://www.tmb.cat/en/bitllets-i-tarifes

Madrid – Metro Euro 1.50 per trip

Lisbon – 1 day Viva Viagem pass % euros + .50 cents to buy card

Paris – Depends on zones

http://www.transilien.com/web/site/...ts-tarifs/billets-abonnements/Mobilis/lang/en

 

[Glenmutchkin]

Doh!

Lisbon 5 Euros + .50 cents for card

 

[Mark_Lester]

I think we'd seen Vytopna before, but I hadnt bothered to look closer, it's a no brainer, near the station so we can and should do it last or we'll never get out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqlGjnexvWg
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ah, there's two, one in brno also. either way, it's a no brainer
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Judging by the reviews we should hit Vytopna first as it gets a bit of a mess later and I think the kitchen cant handle it all. We can have a beverage or two and enthuse at the delights of digital G-gauge but not go for any blow out meal, then make it up the hill.

That place I had next to the black ox sounds a dump actually http://www.klasternirestaurace.cz/

this place comes out much better
http://www.klasterni-pivovar.cz/
does it's own micro brew, including a highly rated IPA. and food which seems reasonable (I doubt there is a restaurant on earth that survives unscathed at the hands of TA).
we can then optionally do the Black Ox, and then potentially return to Vytopna
on the way back to the bags.

 

[Glenmutchkin]

And at Radebeul Öst (on the fringe of Dresden, Germany) you can see both
standard gauge on 750mm and 750mm on standard gauge

This quote came up on a post on one of the NG modelling sites I look at now and again in the context of transporter wagons.

And we are going to miss it!

 

[Mark_Lester]

well, there's nothing to stop you getting an earlier train out of Berlin, and arriving at Prague later, but I just dont think that we can sell that to the rest of them, and I dont understand that quote anyway, nor can find a railway that's got 75cm between it's tracks.

 

[Glenmutchkin]

, nor can find a railway that's got 75cm between it's tracks.

Lößnitzdackel (Lößnitz Dachshund), is a 750 mm (2 ft 5 1⁄2 in) gauge

Sorry. I was a bit cryptic. Transporter wagons are used to carry wagons of a different gauge. The guy I quoted was suggesting that at Radebeul Ost there are standard gauge wagons fitted to transport 750mm ones and vice versa.

If Mick is about perhaps he can confirm this.

 

[mickpop]

Sorry. I was a bit cryptic. Transporter wagons are used to carry wagons of a different gauge. The guy I quoted was suggesting that at Radebeul Ost there are standard gauge wagons fitted to transport 750mm ones and vice versa.

If Mick is about perhaps he can confirm this.

Sorry - meant to respond to Mark's original post but got distracted. Yes there are certainly narrow gauge transporter wagons to carry standard gauge wagons. I think there are a couple of photos showing this on my Zenfolio site [see below]. The line from Oschatz to Mugeln used them and certainly others. Not sure about the the way round as there would be little point in shuffling narrow gauge wagons around unless transferring from one ng line to another of the same gauge. Narrow gauge lines are usually feeder lines to the main line system. There are plenty of examples of 'mixed gauge' track, ie narrow gauge rails laid within standard gauge, around the world. Points get a bit complicated I think!

http://mickpope.zenfolio.com/p634107806/h23277871#h23277871

http://mickpope.zenfolio.com/p634107806/h2d2a0af0#h2d2a0af0

http://mickpope.zenfolio.com/p634107806/h3d19d334#h3d19d334

The first is on the Oschatz to Mugeln line, second is on Wolkenstein to Johstadt and third is on Cranzahl - Kurort Oberwiesenthal line

 

[Glenmutchkin]

Standard gauge transporters for NG stock might be used to transfer stuff to and from workshops. This photo from Kalka shows some KS coaches in transit on transporters.

You might be i nterested in this rather rambling thread where gauntletting of NG tracks has been discussed along with all sorts of stuff.

http://www.indiamike.com/india/indian-railways-f10/train-talk-chai-and-choo-choos-t168168/