North Wales Questions

[transmanche]

OK, if I've understood it correctly:

• The journey from Wrexham Central to Bidston takes about an hour.
• The reason for terminating at Bidston (rather than the more logical Birkenhead North) is because ATW can manage to operate an hourly service with just two units.
• The reason an end-to-end journey takes an hour is due to the low line speeds.
• The low line speeds are because of the poor quality jointed track.
• The joined track is in the process of being replaced.

So my question is this. If the line speeds can be raised after the track is replaced - would ATW be able to operate a Wrexham Central-Birkenhead North hourly service with just two units?

 

[merlodlliw]

OK, if I've understood it correctly:

• The journey from Wrexham Central to Bidston takes about an hour.
• The reason for terminating at Bidston (rather than the more logical Birkenhead North) is because ATW can manage to operate an hourly service with just two units.
• The reason an end-to-end journey takes an hour is due to the low line speeds.
• The low line speeds are because of the poor quality jointed track.
• The joined track is in the process of being replaced.

So my question is this. If the line speeds can be raised after the track is replaced - would ATW be able to operate a Wrexham Central-Birkenhead North hourly service with just two units?

ATW probably could,but knowing ATW, probably wont & I dont see WCBC paying extra between Bidston & Birkenhead North for its Sunday trains,
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Short memories. Wrexham trains used to terminate at New Brighton years ago. Seacombe would have been a better bet but that option disappeared in the 60s and then got buried under the Kingsway tunnel approach road. Might have kept the Mersey Ferry going a bit longer. :roll:
When the chord at Bidston triangle was wanted to be removed (?), they were cut back to Birkenhead North but then they terminated at platform 2. Signalling and a set of crossovers was installed for this purpose. It forced WK and NB trains to LPL through P3 whilst a DMU was in P2 making the curve north-west of the road bridge a bit tight for the EMUs. It gave the better connections that emoaconr craves.
Obviously some bright spark realised that cutting it back to Bidston saved one whole unit. Initially the waiting DMU used to back out of Bidston onto the Borderlands line to clear for WK bound trains but later a very sharp turnaround avoided that maneouver. Wot about the pax though? Draughtyest station in all the north-west?

Bidston station is a miserable place,on a par with Rhyl station for Misery

 

[tbtc]

Its only in the past 12 months that Merseytravel's grid-type passes have been phased out :roll:

Hopefully Walrus will alleviate some problems

Fair enough, I don't know how the travel passes work over there - the zonal ones in West Yorkshire are great for passengers but planners are just guessing whether a Zone Two card is used for travel to Horsforth, Bradford, Wakefield or Pontefract (meaining passenger figures for stations are basically guesswork)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

OK, if I've understood it correctly:

• The journey from Wrexham Central to Bidston takes about an hour.
• The reason for terminating at Bidston (rather than the more logical Birkenhead North) is because ATW can manage to operate an hourly service with just two units.
• The reason an end-to-end journey takes an hour is due to the low line speeds.
• The low line speeds are because of the poor quality jointed track.
• The joined track is in the process of being replaced.

So my question is this. If the line speeds can be raised after the track is replaced - would ATW be able to operate a Wrexham Central-Birkenhead North hourly service with just two units?

That's the way I see it - the service is more about operational convenience (ticking a box to say that *a* service is run) than meeting passenger demand

 

[Gareth Marston]

Short memories. Wrexham trains used to terminate at New Brighton years ago. Seacombe would have been a better bet but that option disappeared in the 60s and then got buried under the Kingsway tunnel approach road. Might have kept the Mersey Ferry going a bit longer. :roll:
When the chord at Bidston triangle was wanted to be removed (?), they were cut back to Birkenhead North but then they terminated at platform 2. Signalling and a set of crossovers was installed for this purpose. It forced WK and NB trains to LPL through P3 whilst a DMU was in P2 making the curve north-west of the road bridge a bit tight for the EMUs. It gave the better connections that emoaconr craves.
Obviously some bright spark realised that cutting it back to Bidston saved one whole unit. Initially the waiting DMU used to back out of Bidston onto the Borderlands line to clear for WK bound trains but later a very sharp turnaround avoided that maneouver. Wot about the pax though? Draughtyest station in all the north-west?

The "top road" is a victim of selective downgrading and sulking because it wasn't closed in the 60's. Anywhere else in Europe given the population it serves it would be thriving.

 

[merlodlliw]

The "top road" is a victim of selective downgrading and sulking because it wasn't closed in the 60's. Anywhere else in Europe given the population it serves it would be thriving.

As we are mentioning the Wirral, SWMBO spent the morning at a meeting in the giant Cheshire Lines/Great Central/Midland goods buildings, now rented by Wirral Metro Council in Eastham.

Took a walk with Jack Russell,along the river front that adjoins the buildings,the place is steeped in history, trams and even two U Boats, plus that giant air duct that supply's fresh air to the tunnels, and the Network Rail pumping station was making a noise like Frankenstein with its vast electric workings.

Happy St David's day to all who read this.

Bob

 

[Gareth]

Just want to give my thoughts on Borderlands Line...

As has already been pointed out, it's generally more used to access Wrexham from the southern end, than to access Liverpool from the northern end. This is because the line is not very direct towards Liverpool or even Birkenhead, with a rather around-the-houses trajectory, whereas there as frequent buses making the more direct route through the road tunnels.

As a link between North Wales and the Liverpool City Region, this route has much less going for it than the Halton Curve has. The Borderlands Line links Wrexham with a few small North Wallian settlements and the less dense, western part of the Wirral Penninsula. The Halton Curve could connect Wrexham with Liverpool via Chester and Liverpool South Parkway (for Liverpool Airport). This is actually Liverpool's biggest missing link.

Merseytravel do have long-term designs on this line. This map from a few years ago seemed to depict that they wanted the whole Borderlands Line integrated into the Merseyrail Wirral Line, complete with third rail electrificaiton; though I've also heard suggestions that it could be standard AC overhead, with new dual voltage being used, changing power at Bidston. There would be new stations at Beechwood & Noctorum, Woodchurch and Deeside Industrial Park. I can't see this happening, to be honest. For a start, even with the electrification and better access to Liverpool, I can't see the line justifying more than 2tph each way. Would the line justify electrification on such a frequency? I know the Ellesmere Port branch of the Wirral Line is only 2tph but it's a much shorter line with proabably a much bigger commuter flow into Birkenhead and central Liverpool. Also, I can't see the Borderlands Line fitting into the metro nature of the Merseyrail system. Merseytravel also have special privilage over awarding the franchise; which it does despite small areas of the system being outside of the Merseytravel area. Adding the Borderlands Line would be a big departure and would challenge this though.

Merseytravel also have a more pragmatic proposal which includes extending the Wirral Line (and so, the third rail electrification) to just the proposed new Woodchurch Station, which I believe is proposed to be sited on Woodchurch Road, right by Junction 3 of the M53. Upton and possibly the proposed Beechwood & Noctorum Station would also be on this branch from Bidston. The advantage with this proposal is that it is entirely within the Merseytravel area which simplifies things somewhat. The stations proposed are well within the Liverpool metropole and so, footfall regarding commuters into the city centre would potentially grow significantly. However, the route is still fairly roundabout to get into Birkenhead and central Liverpool, particularly from Woodchurch and the frequency would have to be 4tph, like the West Kirby and New Brighton branches, otherwise the new stations would not be able to compete with bus services or people just choosing to drive into the city centre. Also, anything less than 4tph would make connectivity from the rump Borderlands Line to Birkenhead & central Liverpool inferior than the current interchange at Bidston. Another, admittedly trivial, disadvantage would be that anyone wanting to access the West Kirby branch stations from the rump Borderlands Line would now have two changes instead of the current one.

Having thought a lot about this line over the years, I personally don't think it should be integrated into Merseyrail whole or at all. Yes, electrification would be nice and so would a higher frequency, though these things probably aren't justifiable. One thing I would propose would be to resituate Bidston Station further east, so it sits at the junction where the West Kirkby and New Birghton branches of the Wirral Line split. There seems to be quite a bit of available land around there, so perhaps a large park & ride could be possible. Ideally, the Borderlands Line would have its own platform here too. This would allow just one change from the Borderlands Line to the stations towards New Brighton, instead of the current two and would double the Liverpool-bound trains through Bidston from 4tph to 8tph, giving the Borderlands Line better connectivity to the greater Liverpool area. This would offer the same connections as Birkenhead North would, without the Borderlines Trains having to stray too far into Merseyrail territory, which would cause operational issues due to Merseyrail's high frequencies and the Bordlerlands Line's well-documented tendency not to timekeep well. Also, if the line speed is increased, instead of extending to Birkenhead North, the Borderlands trains may have a bit more recovery time at the termini than they currently do, which would improve its reliability.

 

[emoaconr]

As a link between North Wales and the Liverpool City Region, this route has much less going for it than the Halton Curve has. The Borderlands Line links Wrexham with a few small North Wallian settlements and the less dense, western part of the Wirral Penninsula. The Halton Curve could connect Wrexham with Liverpool via Chester and Liverpool South Parkway (for Liverpool Airport). This is actually Liverpool's biggest missing link.

I fully support the re-opening of the Halton Curve (its such a no-brainer its ridiculous that its been ignored for so long).

However in several documents released by Merseytravel and Taith authorities some years ago, the Borderlands Line was always the preferred path for upgrading links from NE Wales to Liverpool over the Halton Curve scheme. I'm not disagreeing nor agreeing - however to dismiss the other stops besides Wrexham on the Borderlands Line is rather shortsighted.

As we know, the statistics are fundamentally incorrect. After Wrexham, the most popular station is Shotton which ATW stupidly are incompetent in timing the low-level services to co-incide with the high-level ones. I think the change times at Shotton are possibly one of the line's biggest turn-offs for patronage - it could provide such a convenient path to Chester if only ATW would swap the train stopping at the Low Level platform from the Manchester Picc to the Cardiff/Birmingham service. Anything north of Neston, as already has been mentioned, is at a high level of competition from more direct buses.

But its still in my view that a more frequent service (it doesn't have to be electrified) would make people want to use this line more. I know how much more popular it has become in the last few years since the recession but its growth is capped by pathetic timetabling, obscene choice of terminus, skimpy rolling stock and ancient jointed track. As I have previously mentioned, even a bi-hourly express from Shrewsbury I think could have an effect - the main benefit there is linking North and South Wrexham and providing a faster route up to Birkenhead. Its also not as if the DMUs running on the line which is less than a mile between Bidston and Birkenhead North are going to cause that much hassle ... they're already affecting the West Kirby line as it is by simply terminating at Bidston; Birkenhead North has the benefit of additional sidings, platform and 8tph. Even the rail replacement buses that ATW operate run there rather than Bidston!

Electrification to Woodchurch I think would ruin the line; it'd add an unneccessary stub to the already-confusing Wirral "Line". The electrification should be in whole, to Shotton, or not at all. The "truncated" part of the DMU line would certainly suffer cuts should the northern portion get investment - look what happened between Ellesmere Port and Helsby... once such an important link.

From my experience, people tend to be doing either the entire route to Liverpool, or just a couple of stops on the Welsh side. The main journeys seem to be:

• Wrexham to North Wales stations
• Wrexham to Liverpool
• Buckley/Hawarden/Shotton to Liverpool

And also this was among the last lines in Britain to still be worked by a class 101 right up until 2003... I can't remember what their punctuality was like but it certainly couldn't have been much worse!

 

[headshot119]

The line speed on the Borderlands line raises to 60MPH with a couple of exceptions once the new track is laid. ATW are apparetnely going to start a 40 minute service Wrexham Central - Birkenhead North starting from the Decemeber 2012 timetable recast.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Request stops?
Why are some of the request stops on the request stops? I can understand Ty Croes but Conwy for example is quite a large town and deserves a better service.

I don't think anyone's answered that question, why is Conwy a request stop? Seems odd to me.

 

[D1009]

The line speed on the Borderlands line raises to 60MPH with a couple of exceptions once the new track is laid. ATW are apparetnely going to start a 40 minute service Wrexham Central - Birkenhead North starting from the Decemeber 2012 timetable recast.

Can you source that ?

 

[Gareth]

I fully support the re-opening of the Halton Curve (its such a no-brainer its ridiculous that its been ignored for so long).

However in several documents released by Merseytravel and Taith authorities some years ago, the Borderlands Line was always the preferred path for upgrading links from NE Wales to Liverpool over the Halton Curve scheme. I'm not disagreeing nor agreeing - however to dismiss the other stops besides Wrexham on the Borderlands Line is rather shortsighted.

I'm not dismissing the Borderlands Line, so to speak, I just think the Halton Curve offers more benefit, from a Liverpool perspective. It provides links to Lime Street (and so the city centre), as well as Liuverpool South Parkway (Airport) and Chester, from North Wales. This will not only potentially serve the Wrexham area at the other end, but will make possible links along the coast line to Holyhead. Really though, I would like to see both the realisation Halton Curve and improvements on the Borderlands Line. I still like my idea of moving Biston Station into the triangle at Bidston Moss.

 

[emoaconr]

I'm not dismissing the Borderlands Line, so to speak, I just think the Halton Curve offers more benefit, from a Liverpool perspective. It provides links to Lime Street (and so the city centre), as well as Liuverpool South Parkway (Airport) and Chester, from North Wales. This will not only potentially serve the Wrexham area at the other end, but will make possible links along the coast line to Holyhead. Really though, I would like to see both the realisation Halton Curve and improvements on the Borderlands Line. I still like my idea of moving Biston Station into the triangle at Bidston Moss.

Oh of course not, I agree with you

Halton Curve's primary use will be for express services;
both the Borderlands Line and the Chester-Liverpool lines would then be more suited to commuter stoppers... it'd make some interesting competition.

Though out of interest, why were the diesel City Line local services out of Lime Street and the Borderlands Line never incorporated into the Merseyrail franchise? I suppose it gives ME a specialism in electric services and avoids blemishing its statistics. Though I find it strange to remember back to the days now when the line was operated by First North Western!

 

[Michael.Y]

I don't think anyone's answered that question, why is Conwy a request stop? Seems odd to me.

Combination of factors I would imagine:

1) Has only been open since 1987

2) Proximity of the bigger and more established interchange Llandudno Junction - less than 1 mile / 20 minute walk from Conwy town centre

3) Short platforms (175s only open middle doors, Voyagers no hope)

Think of Llandudno Junction as "Conwy Parkway" / "Conwy Road" and you're not far off the situation here.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Combination of factors I would imagine:

1) Has only been open since 1987

Really, I wonder what station it was in Conwy that I used to use regularly in the 1950's period hock:

Conwy station was opened in 1848 by the Chester and Holyhead Railway and was closed in 1966. It was re-opened in 1987.

 

[merlodlliw]

The line speed on the Borderlands line raises to 60MPH with a couple of exceptions once the new track is laid. ATW are apparetnely going to start a 40 minute service Wrexham Central - Birkenhead North starting from the Decemeber 2012 timetable recast.

with all due respect, the Dec 2012 timetable will not be out for consultation until late July at the earliest.

ATW do not have any surplus stock for this & who will pay ATW to run the trains has anything over the franchise of the semi hourly service Mon/Sat will have to be funded, ATW will not pay for any any service over & above its no growth requirement.

It is an interesting thought, but perhaps in a few years when ATW is gone, it may happen
.........................................................................................................................................
look what happened between Ellesmere Port and Helsby... once such an important link. quote emoaconr

Indeed I recall cash on the table for Hooton to Helsby for 3rd rail, but Shell said no electrics through our refinery, that was the end of an any link.

 

[Rhydgaled]

with all due respect, the Dec 2012 timetable will not be out for consultation until late July at the earliest.

ATW do not have any surplus stock for this & who will pay ATW to run the trains has anything over the franchise of the semi hourly service Mon/Sat will have to be funded, ATW will not pay for any any service over & above its no growth requirement.

It is an interesting thought, but perhaps in a few years when ATW is gone, it may happen

The post you quoted said a 40-minute service. Given that Wrexham Central - Bidston currently takes an hour then I would have though if you can do Wrexham Central - Birkenhead North in 40 minutes no additional resources would be required, and the faster service extending further might attract more passengers&revenue. The big question is can you really do it in 40 minutes.

Combination of factors I would imagine:

1) Has only been open since 1987

2) Proximity of the bigger and more established interchange Llandudno Junction - less than 1 mile / 20 minute walk from Conwy town centre

3) Short platforms (175s only open middle doors, Voyagers no hope)

Think of Llandudno Junction as "Conwy Parkway" / "Conwy Road" and you're not far off the situation here.

I thought the proximity of Llandudno Junction might be a factor, certainly in not having the Virgin services call at Conwy, but would have thought Conwy large enough for the ATW services (at least the ones that will stop on request) to stop without request.

 

[Tracky]

While I dont know (and could not possibly comment if I did) of any plans...

It is fair to say that there is a real effort to reduce delays and trains being turned round at Shotton. The linespeed improvments will help, but it may be considered cost effective to add a third train into the mix and the WAG would be keen on the positive PR that could come from better more reliable links from Wrexham to Liverpool.

 

[Michael.Y]

Really, I wonder what station it was in Conwy that I used to use regularly in the 1950's period hock:

Conwy station was opened in 1848 by the Chester and Holyhead Railway and was closed in 1966. It was re-opened in 1987.

Yes, in its present form, with short platforms and no signal box etc, it has only been open since 1987.

This is how it looked before:

In answer to Rhydgaled - again, it's pointless having two stops in such a short distance serving effectively the same area. For context; the settlement of Llandudno Junction has a population of approximately 7000, compared to Conwy's 4000. LLJ is used by 313,000 people a year, whereas Conwy is used by 27,000. There would have to be a huge change of population behaviour to change this.

 

[jones_bangor]

. The linespeed improvments will help, but it may be considered cost effective to add a third train into the mix and the WAG would be keen on the positive PR that could come from better more reliable links from Wrexham to Liverpool.

I just don't see the point of third rail - what's the point of extending legacy technology in this day and age. The linespeed on the line should be improved -and that would be a real benefit to everyone, together with extension to Birkenhead which would be a better interchange than Bidston.

To be honest, the line is shoddily run at the moment ("run down" even "being run down?"), the uniform of the staff says a lot I'm afraid. A bit like going back to BR in the early 1990s.

 

[transmanche]

In answer to Rhydgaled - again, it's pointless having two stops in such a short distance serving effectively the same area. For context; the settlement of Llandudno Junction has a population of approximately 7000, compared to Conwy's 4000. LLJ is used by 313,000 people a year, whereas Conwy is used by 27,000. There would have to be a huge change of population behaviour to change this.

I don't disagree with your main point, but I'd imagine that the train service pattern has almost as much influence. Go to Conwy and you can catch some of the trains passing through. Go to Llandudno Junction and you can catch any of the trains passing through plus you get the hourly Llandudno-Manchester service too.

 

[The Informer]

The line speed on the Borderlands line raises to 60MPH with a couple of exceptions once the new track is laid. ATW are apparetnely going to start a 40 minute service Wrexham Central - Birkenhead North starting from the Decemeber 2012 timetable recast.

Bollocks!

A pendolino couldn't do that in 40 mins!!! Now unless all the jointed track is rid and the curves re-aligned by dec it aint gonna happen.

 

[Michael.Y]

I don't disagree with your main point, but I'd imagine that the train service pattern has almost as much influence. Go to Conwy and you can catch some of the trains passing through. Go to Llandudno Junction and you can catch any of the trains passing through plus you get the hourly Llandudno-Manchester service too.

I agree; however this must obviously be an acceptable arrangement to the populus of the greater Conwy / Junction area, otherwise it wouldn't be the case. It's not something I think that Taith or the like are unduly worried about.

 

[merlodlliw]

The post you quoted said a 40-minute service. Given that Wrexham Central - Bidston currently takes an hour then I would have though if you can do Wrexham Central - Birkenhead North in 40 minutes no additional resources would be required, and the faster service extending further might attract more passengers&revenue. The big question is can you really do it in 40 minutes.


I thought the proximity of Llandudno Junction might be a factor, certainly in not having the Virgin services call at Conwy, but would have thought Conwy large enough for the ATW services (at least the ones that will stop on request) to stop without request.

Birkenhead North in 40 minutes, I don't know where this rumour started,but there is no current discussion anywhere taking place, and certainly nothing has been circulated to to any stakeholders.
Has this will increase the franchisee costs via extra fuel & line charges for extra services even if it could be achieved by two sprinters ,who would pay for these, ATW wont.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

While I dont know (and could not possibly comment if I did) of any plans...

It is fair to say that there is a real effort to reduce delays and trains being turned round at Shotton. The linespeed improvments will help, but it may be considered cost effective to add a third train into the mix and the WAG would be keen on the positive PR that could come from better more reliable links from Wrexham to Liverpool.

It may be good PR, but WG is cash strapped and it wont happen this year.

 

[jones_bangor]

Birkenhead North in 40 minutes, I don't know where this rumour started,but there is no current discussion anywhere taking place, and certainly nothing has been circulated to to any stakeholders.
Has this will increase the franchisee costs via extra fuel & line charges for extra services even if it could be achieved by two sprinters ,who would pay for these, ATW wont.

I think this is a snowballed rumour.

However, it does illustrate the point that to improve this line, increasing the linespeed to 75mph where possible, would be the way forward.

If the line were realigned, could it not become suitable for 158 units as well? (e.g. swap the 150s for 158s currently used in and around Cardiff), and form a Shrewsbury to Birkenhead?

 

[transmanche]

If the line were realigned, could it not become suitable for 158 units as well? (e.g. swap the 150s for 158s currently used in and around Cardiff), and form a Shrewsbury to Birkenhead?

I'm not sure 158s are suitable for a route with many stations - IMO the doors are too slow and will increase dwell times.

 

[headshot119]

I think this is a snowballed rumour.

However, it does illustrate the point that to improve this line, increasing the linespeed to 75mph where possible, would be the way forward.

If the line were realigned, could it not become suitable for 158 units as well? (e.g. swap the 150s for 158s currently used in and around Cardiff), and form a Shrewsbury to Birkenhead?

I've still heard the 40 minute service as an active plan for the Decemeber timetable recast.

158s can't be used unless they do some work to the platforms.

 

[tbtc]

I'd suspect that with two DMUs and faster linespeed you could either extend the service beyond Bidston to Birkenhead every hour (which would be more useful, though nothing like as useful as running through into Liverpool) *or* speed the service up to allow a marginal increase in frequency.

Talking of both increasing the frequency *and* extending the service seems a little optimistic to me!

 

[OxtedL]

Does anyone know what they do with units that have to hang around Bidston for a while? For instance, at about 1745 ATW bump the service about 15 minutes later than it runs in previous hours, but this involves letting a Merseyrail train through during the gap. Does the unit run into the siding near Bidston, or does it still back onto the Borderlands line for a bit, which someone said was the practice in the past?

The rest of the time the Borderlands services seem to turn around in 3 minutes at both ends during the day, which is quite tight. With any line speed improvements I'd imagine the planners would first of all be looking to increase that to something less tight. To extend to Birkenhead North would require another 3 minutes to get there, but also another x minutes timetabled to allow the train to reverse. Although there are three platforms at Birkenhead North, I understand the track layout isn't currently set up in a manner conducive to turning trains easily? This makes the manoeuvre both expensive in terms of time but also very risky in terms of potential delay minutes.

Looking at all that from where I am, if I were ATW I would want at least 10-15 minutes in journey time improvements, together with a shed load of cash (particularly given the extra conflict and therefore quite probably future compensation that goes with the electric services) before I would even consider extending to Birkenhead North. With that kind of time improvement, you could be looking at running a 45 minute frequency instead. Are there any important and well used clock face connections at Shotton or Wrexham G that make this undesirable as an option?

 

[merlodlliw]

I've still heard the 40 minute service as an active plan for the Decemeber timetable recast.

158s can't be used unless they do some work to the platforms.

So where did you hear all this,was it Toc/NR/ people or just an idea.

I am not trying to be awkward, but no one else or the stakeholders know anything about it.


Bob

 

[Rhydgaled]

I'm not sure 158s are suitable for a route with many stations - IMO the doors are too slow and will increase dwell times.

More importantly, 158s are well suited for long-distance services with only a few stops (or stops a long way apart). There are some of these (my favoriate example being the Fishguard boat train) which are operated by a 150 (woefully inappropriate for long-distance fast services like that). Therefore, if anyone gets the three 158s that are being wasted on ValleyLines (Maesteg) moved away from that route those 158s should be used to get 150s off services they are inappropriate for.