Zone U12 ticket interchange query

[miklcct]

There is an old thread on this topic but it has been locked, so I'm posting a new thread to ask specifically about my ticket, which is Zone U12 - Brentwood.

In the past, I have successfully used Zone U12 tickets to somewhere like St Albans or Luton with a break of journey at Farringdon, by exiting the tube barrier and entering the National Rail barrier. However, it rejected my ticket to Brentwood today with error 51, although I was let in by the staff without hassle.

I thought that changing via the ticket halls is a valid way to change from the Metropolitan line to National Rail as it is clearly signposted, but surprisingly in the OSI (out of station interchange) list, it is listed as PAYG only. For the journey to Brentwood, it is a grey area if break of journey is allowed at Farringdon, because although I pick Farringdon as the tube / rail interchange, TfL treats the Elizabeth line core between Paddington and Liverpool Street as a tube line.

On the return journey, I decided to use the Overground. However again I have doubts if I am allowed to change between Finchley Road & Frognal and Finchley Road from rail to tube, as this OSI as, again, listed as PAYG only, and Finchley Road isn't listed as a station on the Maltese Cross interchange list, so to play safe I changed at West Hampstead instead (the reason I'm interested in Finchley Road is because there is an ALDI so I can buy groceries on my way home).

So here are my questions:
1. Must the U-part of the journey start or end at an interchange station? In particular, after taking rail, can I start the tube journey at a non-interchange with a U-zone destination? I'd like to have a source supporting the answer.

2. Is there any definite source if break of journey is allowed at Farringdon if the change is between the tube and Elizabeth line?

3. On a magnetic OSI, does the time limit apply?

Thanks all.

 

[Haywain]

3. On a magnetic OSI, does the time limit apply?

There is no such thing. OSIs are only applicable to Oyster and contactless where they form a part of calculating a through fare.

1. Must the U-part of the journey start or end at an interchange station? In particular, after taking rail, can I start the tube journey at a non-interchange with a U-zone destination?

The ticket is for a tube to National Rail journey so there has to be some form of interchange.

2. Is there any definite source if break of journey is allowed at Farringdon if the change is between the tube and Elizabeth line?

In the eyes of TfL, the break would be between tube and tube and wouldn't be allowed.

 

[miklcct]

There is no such thing. OSIs are only applicable to Oyster and contactless where they form a part of calculating a through fare.

The file downloaded from TfL clearly lists some OSIs applicable to both PAYG and magnetic.

The ticket is for a tube to National Rail journey so there has to be some form of interchange.

For a National Rail to tube journey, can I start the tube journey somewhere else other than the National Rail interchange I used? Must I use an interchange on the Maltese Cross list, or can I use other interchanges not on the list such as Finchley Road / East Putney?

In the eyes of TfL, the break would be between tube and tube and wouldn't be allowed.

So if the U-zone ticket is to north Kent, and I break my journey at Farringdon, does it mean that officially I have to continue my journey on Thameslink rather than the Elizabeth line?

Is the answer different if I break my journey at Liverpool Street?

 

[redreni]

So if the U-zone ticket is to north Kent, and I break my journey at Farringdon, does it mean that officially I have to continue my journey on Thameslink rather than the Elizabeth line?

Is the answer different if I break my journey at Liverpool Street?

These are good questions to which I don't know all the answers.

We should consider the possibility that we might not like any official answers that may be given, so that a degree of ambiguity might serve us better than clarity.

If you arrive at Farringdon by tube on a ticket from U12 to somewhere in North Kent and want to transfer to the Elizabeth Line then, as you say, the signs will direct you through the gatelines either side of Cowcross Street, so in practice there is not much that can be done to regulate which lines people transfer from and to or how much time elapses between their passing though the two gatelines.

Presumably the inability to police break of journey restrictions is one of the reasons TfL maintains a pared-down OSI list for magnetic ticket holders compared to PAYG users. Perhaps they should have separate wayfinding at interchanges as well!

On the journeys I make, there are times when it is sorely tempting to make interchanges or even take routes that are definitely not allowed in preference to equally convenient ones that are allowed, simply because in practice the possibilities of friction at different gatelines don't reflect the actual rules. So for instance, on a Maltese Cross ticket from Slade Green to Maidenhead, there would be less chance of friction on the invalid route:

Slade Green > Abbey Wood > Farringdon > Tottenham Court Road [break of journey] City Thameslink > Farringdon > Paddington > Maidenhead

than on the (according to the NRCoT) perfectly valid route

Slade Green > Abbey Wood > Tottenham Court Road [break of journey] > Tottenham Court Road > Paddington > Maidenhead.

I would never do this, of course. My view on other people doing stuff like this is it's up to TfL to make it so it's easier for people to abide by the rules than to break them. There wouldn't even be so many people using mag stripe tickets if TfL had sorted out e-ticket and smartcard acceptance at its gatelines years ago.

Incidentally, does anybody know what justification (if any) TfL gives for having fewer OSIs for magnetic ticket holders than PAYG users? Is it simply that a different balance between convenience and prevention of irregular travel needs to be struck due to the difficulty in policing how magnetic tickets are used?

 

[boiledbeans2]

there would be less chance of friction on the invalid route:

Slade Green > Abbey Wood > Farringdon > Tottenham Court Road [break of journey] City Thameslink > Farringdon > Paddington > Maidenhead

than on the (according to the NRCoT) perfectly valid route

Slade Green > Abbey Wood > Tottenham Court Road [break of journey] > Tottenham Court Road > Paddington > Maidenhead.

At TCR, when interchanging between Central and Elizabeth, if I remember correctly, the signs will lead you to the concourse to exit the barriers, and re-enter at the other side of the concourse. So potentially an easy break of journey location....

 

[redreni]

At TCR, when interchanging between Central and Elizabeth, if I remember correctly, the signs will lead you to the concourse to exit the barriers, and re-enter at the other side of the concourse. So potentially an easy break of journey location....

True. But once again, it's on the OSI list as PAYG only, so presumably anyone actually making that transfer on a CCST would either have to ignore the way finding and go via the Northern Line platforms or try to argue their way through?

 

[yorkie]

There is an old thread on this topic but it has been locked, so I'm posting a new thread to ask specifically about my ticket, which is Zone U12 - Brentwood.

In the past, I have successfully used Zone U12 tickets to somewhere like St Albans or Luton with a break of journey at Farringdon, by exiting the tube barrier and entering the National Rail barrier. However, it rejected my ticket to Brentwood today with error 51, although I was let in by the staff without hassle.

I thought that changing via the ticket halls is a valid way to change from the Metropolitan line to National Rail as it is clearly signposted, but surprisingly in the OSI (out of station interchange) list, it is listed as PAYG only. For the journey to Brentwood, it is a grey area if break of journey is allowed at Farringdon, because although I pick Farringdon as the tube / rail interchange, TfL treats the Elizabeth line core between Paddington and Liverpool Street as a tube line.

On the return journey, I decided to use the Overground. However again I have doubts if I am allowed to change between Finchley Road & Frognal and Finchley Road from rail to tube, as this OSI as, again, listed as PAYG only, and Finchley Road isn't listed as a station on the Maltese Cross interchange list, so to play safe I changed at West Hampstead instead (the reason I'm interested in Finchley Road is because there is an ALDI so I can buy groceries on my way home).

So here are my questions:
1. Must the U-part of the journey start or end at an interchange station? In particular, after taking rail, can I start the tube journey at a non-interchange with a U-zone destination? I'd like to have a source supporting the answer.

2. Is there any definite source if break of journey is allowed at Farringdon if the change is between the tube and Elizabeth line?

3. On a magnetic OSI, does the time limit apply?

Thanks all.

Can you clarify what journey(s) you are making, or have in mind?

An Out of Station Interchange (OSI) is a very specific concept to Contactless/Oyster Pay As You Go (PAYG); it does not apply to paper tickets. There is no such thing as a "magnetic OSI", at least not as a formal concept.

 

[miklcct]

Can you clarify what journey(s) you are making, or have in mind?

An Out of Station Interchange (OSI) is a very specific concept to Contactless/Oyster Pay As You Go (PAYG); it does not apply to paper tickets. There is no such thing as a "magnetic OSI", at least not as a formal concept.

Tube from zone 2 to Farringdon, then National Rail to elsewhere (e.g. Brentwood, Luton, Slough, Redhill, etc.)

The file downloaded from TfL clearly lists some OSIs applicable to both PAYG and magnetic

TfL's OSI list contains details on both PAYG and magnetic OSIs.

 

[redreni]

Can you clarify what journey(s) you are making, or have in mind?

An Out of Station Interchange (OSI) is a very specific concept to Contactless/Oyster Pay As You Go (PAYG); it does not apply to paper tickets. There is no such thing as a "magnetic OSI", at least not as a formal concept.

No, but the concept that there's no general right to break and then resume your journey on the cross-London portion of a ticket (be it the Maltese Cross portion of a point-to-point national rail ticket or the London Underground portion of a Zone U-whatever ticket) is well accepted, isn't it?

So I'm not sure TfL needs, necessarily, to rely on the existence of "magnetic OSI" as a formal concept accepted by anybody else, in order to try to stop people breaking and resuming journeys on the tube?

I am fascinated by TfL's belief that they can impose a time limit on magnetic OSIs, though. That seems bonkers both in principle and practically.

Tube from zone 2 to Farringdon, then National Rail to elsewhere (e.g. Brentwood, Luton, Slough, Redhill, etc.)

TfL's OSI list contains details on both PAYG and magnetic OSIs.

I suspect TfL's official answer may be different for Brentwood and Slough than it is for Luton and Redhill. I suspect they would be more likely to accept you've reached your interchange point with National Rail if you're going to take the Thameslink from Farringdon than if you're going to take the Elizabeth Line. In the latter case I believe TfL corporate doctrine is that on this journey your interchange point with National Rail is Paddington if you're going to Slough, or Liverpool Street if you're going to Brentwood, even though you don't change there.

But as I say, since their own wayfinding tells you to pass through the gates to make the transfer you are describing, I'd be very surprised if they didn't let you out and back in. And they're not in a position to time you when you make the transfer and decide if you've broken your journey.

I don't think we've had any horror stories on the forum of people being pulled up for this, have we? What would the remedy even be from TfL's point of view? At a normal LU station, by LU's guidance the customer is supposed to be told that should they wish to continue their LU transfer by tube after a break of journey, they will need to pay. That is, of course, something of an imposition if you want to go from Farringdon to Slough or Farringdon to Brentwood as it's going to involve tapping in at Farringdon, disembarking and tapping out at Paddington or Liverpool Street and then resuming the journey on the paper ticket. Perhaps if anyone has ever been told they need to do that, they could let us know? I doubt this ever happens.