When using TfL single fare finder between a zone 1 station (say Kings cross) and orpington, applying a national railcard discount to this journey during peak time returns a price of £10.40. Using the forums ticketing service, and applying a 16-25 railcard, one obtains a paper ticket price of £8.85 during peak times. Am I missing something, or is it beneficial to be using paper tickets for this journey as opposed to oyster?
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Zone 1 -> Orpington - Cheapest Fare
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drueberflug
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Thanks for mentioning that the journey you looked up is in the peak hours.
National Railcard discounts on Oyster are only valid off-peak, meaning you'd get charged the full peak fare during the peak.
Railcard discounts work differently between Oyster PAYG and paper tickets (or digital equivalents thereof).
Paper tickets
For short journeys on the morning peak, most Railcards provide no discount on paper tickets. This is either because their conditions explicitly exclude use in the morning peak (e.g. the Annual Gold Card, or Network/Senior Railcard) or because they have a minimum fare in the morning peak that is more than the cost of a single fare.
A return fare might be expensive enough to meet the minimum fare rule though, and thus get at least a partial discount. And for the 16-25 and HM Forces Railcards the minimum fare doesn't apply during the months of July and August - this means it can be cheaper to use paper tickets than PAYG during those months, as you get the full discount on paper tickets at all times of day.
Oyster PAYG
With Oyster PAYG, all Railcards (except the Disabled Railcard) apply under the same circumstances: you get the discount for off-peak fares and off-peak caps.
On the one hand, this means that if you touch in before 06:30, you can get an off-peak fare which is also Railcard discounted - this would generally not be possible with paper tickets.
However, it also means that since peak PAYG fares are charged for most journeys if you touch in between 16:00 and 19:00, you may be better off using paper tickets for evening peak journeys - as you would not get any Railcard discount on the PAYG peak fare itself.
Confusingly, the evening peak fare would still count towards your daily off-peak cap (unlike pre-06:30 off-peak journeys), which is discounted. So there can be circumstances where you are still getting some (or full) benefit from your Railcard discount despite paying a peak fare.
For example I recently did a day trip to Heathrow on the Elizabeth line. I was charged a Railcard off-peak fare on the way out, and would have been charged an undiscounted peak fare on the way back as it was the evening peak. However, the daily Railcard Zones 1-6 off-peak cap meant I ended up paying only slightly more than the actual peak fare for my return journey. This meant it was still cheaper to do it this way than with a Railcard paper ticket.
Summary
Basically the long and short of it is that the cheapest fare depends on exactly when you're travelling, what kind of Railcard you have, and whether you're returning (and if so, whether the same day or not).
For Railcard holders, there isn't an easy, blanket rule of "PAYG is always cheaper" or "paper tickets are always cheaper". It depends on the circumstances.
Thank you both for the clarification, London fares will never cease to baffle me but this will be a lot of help!
The daily Oyster off-peak railcard cap for zones 1-6 is £10.85, so if your trip to Orpington is after 9.30am, anything extra you do later that day will only set you back an extra 45p in total.
(Practically speaking, you could save money by avoiding the Tube at King's Cross and using Thameslink from St Pancras to Orpington, which would cost you £8.50 peak and £3.45 off-peak - same cap applies)
redreni
Established Member
Some Railcards offer discounts on paper tickets but not Oyster PAYG (e.g. Two Together and Network).
So at the weekend, when the Network Railcard minimum fare doesn't apply, a Network Railcard holder will often be *substantially* better off with a ticket rather than PAYG. But there's no hard and fast rule.
So at the weekend, when the Network Railcard minimum fare doesn't apply, a Network Railcard holder will often be *substantially* better off with a ticket rather than PAYG. But there's no hard and fast rule.
The other use of paper tickets is if you want to break your journey by getting off at an intermediate station. Paper tickets allow you to get off and resume your journey later, but Oyster does not. So if you were travelling from Zone 1 to Orpington, but wanted to go to Bromley as well, a London > Orpington paper ticket may work out better value than a London > Bromley and Bromley > Orpington Oyster fare.
redreni
Established Member
Yeah, and conversely, if you're doing a journey where it may be quicker to double back, sometimes this isn't permitted (or costs more) with a paper ticket, but on contactless it's fine. Paddington to Twyford, for instance, may be quicker via Reading.
Paper off-peak day returns £27.20 via Reading, £21.10 not via Reading. Off-peak Contactless single £10.60. So contactless would be 10p more expensive than a ticket on a return journey going direct, but £7.10 cheaper if you want to go via Reading (assuming you don't want to break your journey).
But no Railcard discounts at all on Contactless, of course. Horses for courses.
Paper off-peak day returns £27.20 via Reading, £21.10 not via Reading. Off-peak Contactless single £10.60. So contactless would be 10p more expensive than a ticket on a return journey going direct, but £7.10 cheaper if you want to go via Reading (assuming you don't want to break your journey).
But no Railcard discounts at all on Contactless, of course. Horses for courses.
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