You're saying "I want better trains"...

[anti-pacer]

...is the headline of a poster I'm currently looking at, aboard the 0735 Leeds-Huddersfield via Bradford train.

It highlights the introduction of electric trains into the North West, and promises a more reliable service that will help look after the environment.

Well, with the cast-off 319's so unloved by FCC passengers, not entering service by this date, which electric trains are these they speak of?

Surely it would be better to take these posters down and replace them with a more factual claim once Northern have a solid guarantee when our "improved" trains will be here.

One thing's for sure though, as I sit aboard this scruffy looking 150, I definitely want better trains!

 

[DarloRich]

...is the headline of a poster I'm currently looking at, aboard the 0735 Leeds-Huddersfield via Bradford train.

It highlights the introduction of electric trains into the North West, and promises a more reliable service that will help look after the environment.

Well, with the cast-off 319's so unloved by FCC passengers, not entering service by this date, which electric trains are these they speak of?

Surely it would be better to take these posters down and replace them with a more factual claim once Northern have a solid guarantee when our "improved" trains will be here.

One thing's for sure though, as I sit aboard this scruffy looking 150, I definitely want better trains!

Thanks for that - not sure what your point is - but anyway..........

The 319 will certainly improve the service in the North West and should reduce journey times and offer more capacity by releasing units elsewhere. I know they are terrible units but it all helps

Are the 319 fantastic? No, but they are what can be had now without any extra investment. Yes, they need an overhaul and the interior sorting out, but there is a choice:

a) Do that and wait longer or
b) Throw them into service asap

Which do you want? If you want better trains you best start paying for them hadn’t you because the government wont. How much do you want to add to your cheaper fares?

BTW the Northern 150’s often seem in much better nick than the London Midland ones I use everyday, much cleaner, brighter and more modern - but you don’t want to hear that do you


EDIT - I should say that I am not suggesting it is good that these trains are not yet in service - they really should be to my mind and there has clearly been a balls up somewhere!

 

[anti-pacer]

Thanks for that - not sure what your point is - but anyway..........

The 319 will certainly improve the service in the North West and should reduce journey times and offer more capacity by releasing units elsewhere. I know they are terrible units but it all helps

Are the 319 fantastic? No, but they are what can be had now without any extra investment. Yes, they need an overhaul and the interior sorting out, but there is a choice:

a) Do that and wait longer or
b) Throw them into service asap

Which do you want? If you want better trains you best start paying for them hadn’t you because the government wont. How much do you want to add to your cheaper fares?

BTW the Northern 150’s often seem in much better nick than the London Midland ones I use everyday, much cleaner, brighter and more modern - but you don’t want to hear that do you

Well as a UK taxpayer, why can't I have the "better trains" that so many of you already enjoy?

I'll take your word for it that LM's 150's are worse than Northern's, but with your shiny 172's and 350's in London Midland territory, you already have the better trains.

 

[DarloRich]

Well as a UK taxpayer, why can't I have the "better trains" that so many of you already enjoy?

I'll take your word for it that LM's 150's are worse than Northern's, but with your shiny 172's and 350's in London Midland territory, you already have the better trains.

Not on my line - 150 or 153 and they are in bad nick. Especially the 153 (Compared to the Northern 153 I was on last weekend the 153's are rotten!)

Well as a UK tax payer you can have nice new trains, when you pay for them. We in southern land (sigh) pay much more in fares to fund a larger part of the cost of the new trains. Pay more, get more

(Also my wagers are higher (slightly) down here so I pay more in tax - should this not get me a nice new train

 

[NSEFAN]

It turns out that trains are expensive, and that if you want a better service you have to pay for it, either through subsidy or the fare box. Current policy is to move the railway to absolute minimal subsidy, meaning that passengers will increasingly foot the true cost of rolling stock. Just be careful what you wish for.

 

[Aldaniti]

It sounds as if Northern are waking up to the fact that its passengers have had enough of its awful rolling stock and are becoming increasingly vocal about it. The railway has enjoyed significant growth of passenger numbers in recent years but with petrol prices falling by the week it might well be that those passenger numbers might now start to go the other way, and some fares will look increasingly expensive by comparison.

 

[ac6000cw]

Don't the Manchester-Scotland 350s count as new trains ?

 

[185143]

Don't the Manchester-Scotland 350s count as new trains ?

yes, but that's TPE

 

[sprinterguy]

Not on my line - 150 or 153 and they are in bad nick. Especially the 153 (Compared to the Northern 153 I was on last weekend the 153's are rotten!)

I'm surprised that you think that the London Midland 150s and 153s are in a poorer condition than those operated by Northern. Northerns 153s are generally fine, but I travel on an LM 153 most days of the week and they're fine, too: Clean, tidy, warm - can't really ask for much else.

London Midland's 150s have also undergone a refresh more recently than any of Northerns': The internal condition of some of Northerns 150s can be quite dire.

 

[DarloRich]

I'm surprised that you think that the London Midland 150s and 153s are in a poorer condition than those operated by Northern. Northerns 153s are generally fine, but I travel on an LM 153 most days of the week and they're fine, too: Clean, tidy, warm - can't really ask for much else.

London Midland's 150s have also undergone a refresh more recently than any of Northerns': The internal condition of some of Northerns 150s can be quite dire.

Yours are fresh out of home base - ours are outstabled at Beltchley all week - although they are warm

 

[sprinterguy]

Yours are fresh out of home base - ours are outstabled at Beltchley all week - although they are warm

I was indeed wondering whether them being outbased at Bletchley all week made a difference.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Shouldn't do - Bletchley has cleaning facilities.

 

[dvalts]

I think given the choice between 'better' trains or more trains (more capacity), I'd actually go for more trains on Northern. To be honest, if I knew I could find a seat on the journey, I'd settle for trains built in the '80s as long as they were reasonably maintained and clean, if a bit worn and dated.

 

[47802]

...is the headline of a poster I'm currently looking at, aboard the 0735 Leeds-Huddersfield via Bradford train.

It highlights the introduction of electric trains into the North West, and promises a more reliable service that will help look after the environment.

Well, with the cast-off 319's so unloved by FCC passengers, not entering service by this date, which electric trains are these they speak of?

Surely it would be better to take these posters down and replace them with a more factual claim once Northern have a solid guarantee when our "improved" trains will be here.

One thing's for sure though, as I sit aboard this scruffy looking 150, I definitely want better trains!

What are you moaning about? yes its a pity the 319's haven't entered service yet but they will be a welcome improvement not least because they release capacity elsewhere whilst the moderate refurb they are having is a lot better than people expected and they actually look quite reasonable inside.

I do agree that the Northern Rail franchise has been a national disgrace but lets not knock the improvements which are now coming.

 

[ash39]

Are fares really much more expensive 'down south' than in the north?

It costs £16.30 (anytime return) to get from York to Leeds, which on TPE is around a 20 minute journey of around 25 miles.

 

[ainsworth74]

Depends where you are! York to Leeds is a premium flow (and notably gets new trains on a majority of its services) and isn't within a single PTE. For example Leeds to Marsden (24 miles) is wholly within West Yorkshire PTE and the Anytime Return is £9.20. As a broad approach it's probably fair to say many fares in the North are cheaper but it isn't right to say they are all cheaper than in the South.

Just as it's wrong to say all the fares in the South are more expensive! There can be some pretty good fares in that part of the world (especially if you include the South West).

 

[alwaystouchout]

Are the 319s even that bad? They rattle a fair bit at speed but that was all I noticed..

 

[CC 72100]

Just as it's wrong to say all the fares in the South are more expensive! There can be some pretty good fares in that part of the world (especially if you include the South West).

Technically you shouldn't need to say "if you include the south west" because it is 'the south' in the North/South divide, but people on here often prefer to do North v London + South East in this sort of thing, and often forget other parts of the south.... parts of the south which on occasions are not unlike the North in terms of rolling stock, tickets, overcrowding etc.

 

[anti-pacer]

What are you moaning about? yes its a pity the 319's haven't entered service yet but they will be a welcome improvement not least because they release capacity elsewhere whilst the moderate refurb they are having is a lot better than people expected and they actually look quite reasonable inside.

I do agree that the Northern Rail franchise has been a national disgrace but lets not knock the improvements which are now coming.

Sorry to sound pessimistic but improvements coming to Northern include a small area between Manchester, Liverpool, Preston and Blackpool, come in the form of 25 year old rolling stock that many a Thameslink customer moaned about, and are actually older I believe than the 323 showed in the so called "improvement" poster that Northern are displaying.

Improvements in the South East come in the form of brand new trains.

One nation, two different standards of rail travel!

 

[GatwickDepress]

Blame the government, not the passengers.

As for new trains, I spent most of my rail travel knocking knees on the godawful 2x2 seating of the 313s. Give me a Pacer any day!

 

[47802]

Sorry to sound pessimistic but improvements coming to Northern include a small area between Manchester, Liverpool, Preston and Blackpool, come in the form of 25 year old rolling stock that many a Thameslink customer moaned about, and are actually older I believe than the 323 showed in the so called "improvement" poster that Northern are displaying.

Improvements in the South East come in the form of brand new trains.

One nation, two different standards of rail travel!

Well I'm sorry I can not agree with that Manchester - Liverpool and Manchester - Blackpool are major routes, It has allowed Manchester - Scotland services to go electric with new trains, the 319's are getting reasonable makeover hopefully it will be more extensive when Northern gets re franchised, and allows a significant cascade of both Northern and TPE diesel trains to other routes, It also gives West Coast Services more electrified diversionary routes.

 

[anti-pacer]

Well I'm sorry I can not agree with that Manchester - Liverpool and Manchester - Blackpool are major routes, It has allowed Manchester - Scotland services to go electric with new trains, the 319's are getting reasonable makeover hopefully it will be more extensive when Northern gets re franchised, and allows a significant cascade of both Northern and TPE diesel trains to other routes, It also gives West Coast Services more electrified diversionary routes.

Well that's precious little comfort for me here in West Yorkshire!

OK we have the 333's, but they're 12 years old now (our newest stock) and are looking pretty shabby at present.

I would welcome 185's on Northern's routes though.

 

[47802]

Well that's precious little comfort for me here in West Yorkshire!

OK we have the 333's, but they're 12 years old now (our newest stock) and are looking pretty shabby at present.

I would welcome 185's on Northern's routes though.

West Yorkshire has had significant improvements over the years with increases in services and capacity and reopened stations over a number of routes and its not all that long ago that your Leeds to Huddersfield via Bradford service didn't even exist and you would have had to get the bus from Bradford to Huddersfield or go via Leeds.

The North TPX electrification will benefit West Yorkshire both with new electric services and more cascaded stock.

 

[SPADTrap]

Well as a UK taxpayer, why can't I have the "better trains" that so many of you already enjoy?

I'll take your word for it that LM's 150's are worse than Northern's, but with your shiny 172's and 350's in London Midland territory, you already have the better trains.

You should hear how the Thameslinkers are avoiding brand new 387s then!

 

[DarloRich]

Well that's precious little comfort for me here in West Yorkshire!

OK we have the 333's, but they're 12 years old now (our newest stock) and are looking pretty shabby at present.

I would welcome 185's on Northern's routes though.

But TPE north electrification WILL benefit several Yorkshires and allow for even more trains to be released for use on other services. Yes it is taking time but it will happen. The trains might not be brand new but they are better. The 185's wont turn up on Northern any time soon though - they would be wasted there.

As stated previously, and which you clearly don’t like, but how much more do YOU want to pay for new trains? The government wants the passenger to bear more of the costs of procurement and operation. You can have old trains and cheaper fares or new trains and higher fares. You can’t have cheap fares and new trains. How much is it worth then?

 

[northwichcat]

Are fares really much more expensive 'down south' than in the north?

It costs £16.30 (anytime return) to get from York to Leeds, which on TPE is around a 20 minute journey of around 25 miles.

PTE area fares are lower than the national average (including the West Midlands local fares.)

London commuter routes are higher than the national average.

However, there isn't much difference between a non-London commuter route in the South and a non-PTE area fare in the North.

 

[LexyBoy]

Depends where you are! York to Leeds is a premium flow (and notably gets new trains on a majority of its services) and isn't within a single PTE. For example Leeds to Marsden (24 miles) is wholly within West Yorkshire PTE and the Anytime Return is £9.20. As a broad approach it's probably fair to say many fares in the North are cheaper but it isn't right to say they are all cheaper than in the South.

Pick a "premium" flow in the South and you can easily beat that - Swindon to Didcot is also about 25 miles and £43 SDR. And on trains older than your 150s/Pacers to boot. Whilst that's particularly extortionate, most commuter flows to London are over £16 at the 25-mile mark.

As well as the route, I'd say that it depends on time of travel - there seem to be better off-peak deals in the South than the North.

 

[civ-eng-jim]

Improvements in the South East come in the form of brand new trains.

One nation, two different standards of rail travel!

How old were the slam-door trains in the south-east before they were all phased out? 40 years? Their age, their poor crash-worthiness and the fact that 10s of people died each year falling from moving trains are legitimate reason to upgrade to new trains I think.

So while many areas of the country, including the North were getting shiny new DMUs in the 80s, the Southeast was still nearly 20 years away from fully phasing out the slam-door fleets.

 

[Starmill]

Mucho wibble in this thread as usual. Northern's fares aren't cheaper. Some of their 150s are absolutely disgusting.

 

[yorksrob]

Pick a "premium" flow in the South and you can easily beat that - Swindon to Didcot is also about 25 miles and £43 SDR.

It may well do, but the difference isn't enough to justify the "all northern train journeys cost peanuts" excuse to not invest in anything.

That said, I'd have been happy if they'd kept a few 308's in storage to ease the crisis.