Your views: should we have first class on trains at all?

[cf111]

Not a "PC" thing to say but the biggest advantage of first class travel is surely to reduce the risk of exposure to noisy and unpleasant travelling companions. The extra space and free wifi (where provided) is a bonus. Complimentary food seems (in my experience) to be vastly more important to those travelling on heavily discounted 'Advance' tickets (and out for everything they can get) than to business travellers who would rather work without interruption other than maybe the odd drink here and there .

I've has the displeasure of plenty of boorish oafs and screaming children in first.

 

[cf111]

I am considerably richer than yow

Remind me not to order the champagne cocktails the next time I'm in first class...

 

[AlterEgo]

There’s definitely a lower chance of having your journey spoiled by loud or inappropriate passengers in first class.

Not no chance, but a lower chance.

 

[class387]

Well all 171s, 377/4s and 465/9s do anyway.

171s do. 465/9s definitely don't. I'm not sure about 377/4s - they definitely used to have them but could have been removed at refurbishment.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Inner suburban metro services shouldn't have FC, however I do believe that places such as Ramsgate, Hastings, Brighton, Littlehampton etc should keep FC.

I can't always afford first class but I doesn't mean that people who can afford it should miss out either, FC Is a necessary evil, not every one wants to travel with screaming children or with people who have very loud phone conversations, especially after a hard days work.

I think some outer suburban routes could have Quiet Zones instead of 1st Class as a compromise, like c2c.

 

[Failed Unit]

And just because I travel first class a lot doesn’t mean I’m a snob either to be fair. A lot have you have said that I am on this thread, but a snob is someone who physically looks down on standard class passengers and considers themselves superior. In no way have I done that.

I think if you re-read some of your posts on the subject then you may understand why people get that impression.

I remember when many regional trains had first class. The 101 DMUs for example.

For me personally under 2 hours I won’t bother (unless the price is right) over 2 hours I will try but again if the price is too high you can buy a lot of food & drink for the difference.

A few things that have surprised me over time.

1. Removal of the gold card upgrades in the south east. It would probably be £5 today but would have willingly paid on longer journeys. I would pay on busy services but then you can’t buy on the train and you don’t know how busy it is until it turns up. You won’t get a refund if a class 387 arrives and lots of seats in standard if you buy in advance.

2. The fact some railcards can get it and others can’t. Why should the 16-25 get it and the family not? Some 16-25 year olds are very wealthy. I did recently attempt to try with a two together and a child separately. Again computer said no as group tickets can be discounted with 2 together. (Need to play more with the booking engine).

Some people on this thread will be in for a shock when the hit 27. They will be paying more for a standard class ticket then they did for a first when they were 26. (Or 31 if they change the age range)

 

[AlterEgo]

2. The fact some railcards can get it and others can’t. Why should the 16-25 get it and the family not? Some 16-25 year olds are very wealthy. I did recently attempt to try with a two together and a child separately. Again computer said no as group tickets can be discounted with 2 together. (Need to play more with the booking engine).

Some people on this thread will be in for a shock when the hit 27. They will be paying more for a standard class ticket then they did for a first when they were 26. (Or 31 if they change the age range)

The idea of offering young people a discount on First Advances only is obvious - let them travel first class once or twice, cheaply, and they’ll be premium customers possibly for the rest of their lives.

It hasn’t much to do with wealth or affordability. It’s a marketing and sales strategy.

 

[Failed Unit]

The idea of offering young people a discount on First Advances only is obvious - let them travel first class once or twice, cheaply, and they’ll be premium customers possibly for the rest of their lives.

It hasn’t much to do with wealth or affordability. It’s a marketing and sales strategy.

Doesn’t that apply equally to family and friends. Lock them in as children. They won’t want to travel any other way.

 

[yorksrob]

Doesn’t that apply equally to family and friends. Lock them in as children. They won’t want to travel any other way.

The same is true of anyone of any age who hasn't yet tried first class. So the discount should also be available on a non-age restricted national railcard that our enterprising privatised railway hasn't managed to introduce yet.

 

[AlterEgo]

Doesn’t that apply equally to family and friends. Lock them in as children. They won’t want to travel any other way.

That would be an average of three or four seats going discounted for each purchase decision though. Probably not worth it given the fact families aren’t often encouraged to travel in First Class.

The big selling point of First Class is ambience and a better chance of a quiet trip, rather than any freebies on offer.

 

[AlterEgo]

The same is true of anyone of any age who hasn't yet tried first class. So the discount should also be available on a non-age restricted national railcard that our enterprising privatised railway hasn't managed to introduce yet.

I’m pro-national railcard, but it’s worth remembering that an 18 year old university student has an average of about 60 years’ rail travel left in them. That’s way more lucrative than someone on a Senior Railcard.

 

[yorksrob]

I’m pro-national railcard, but it’s worth remembering that an 18 year old university student has an average of about 60 years’ rail travel left in them. That’s way more lucrative than someone on a Senior Railcard.

True, but so does someone aged 35.

Plus, isn't there a bit of a risk of alienating those younger passengers down the line by giving them an unrealistic expectation of affordable first class travel which the railway is unwilling to maintain.

 

[AlterEgo]

Plus, isn't there a bit of a risk of alienating those younger passengers down the line by giving them an unrealistic expectation of affordable first class travel which the railway is unwilling to maintain.

Not really, because railcard holders are abundantly aware that the fare they’re buying is discounted. It’s perfectly transparent that it’ll be more expensive without one.

If they find First Class unaffordable then they’ll just travel in standard class.

 

[yorksrob]

Not really, because railcard holders are abundantly aware that the fare they’re buying is discounted. It’s perfectly transparent that it’ll be more expensive without one.

If they find First Class unaffordable then they’ll just travel in standard class.

Or drive instead.

I know it's not quite being expelled from the Garden of Eden, however having to go back to standard might cause some negative feeling, particularly when they realise they won't even get any kind of discount on that.

I've spoken to normals who were surprised that there was no type of follow-on railcard.

 

[AlterEgo]

Or drive instead.

Declining car ownership amongst young people means this isn’t a significant risk.

I know it's not quite being expelled from the Garden of Eden, however having to go back to standard might cause some negative feeling, particularly when they realise they won't even get any kind of discount on that.

You’re making it sound like that would all be a surprise to 16-25 card holders. They know they’re on a temporary age related discount. There’s no evidence at all the 16-25 Railcard actually *loses* the railway business or revenue. Quite the opposite.

 

[al78]

The "not PC" part isn't the intolerance of noisy or disruptive passengers... it's that (a) you assume that you'll only encounter loud or obnoxious people in standard class, and (b) the idea that being able to afford first class travel is the only way to avoid this unpleasantness.

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/appeals/appeal-to-wealth/

 

[yorksrob]

Declining car ownership amongst young people means this isn’t a significant risk.



You’re making it sound like that would all be a surprise to 16-25 card holders. They know they’re on a temporary age related discount. There’s no evidence at all the 16-25 Railcard actually *loses* the railway business or revenue. Quite the opposite.

Nevertheless, the railcard is probably nowhere near as good at retaining that custom after age 25 than it otherwise would be, if a discount scheme were available.

Also, it doesn't behove the railway to be complacent about recent trends in motoring.

 

[al78]

Unlike many posters here I seem to be able to tune out the screaming and braying that many assume to occur in cattle class and enjoy my day out.

Well done. I would have challeneged you to be able to do that on two journeys I have made in the past.

 

[al78]

I am considerably richer than yow

Ha ha.

 

[Failed Unit]

Nevertheless, the railcard is probably nowhere near as good at retaining that custom after age 25 than it otherwise would be, if a discount scheme were available.

Also, it doesn't behove the railway to be complacent about recent trends in motoring.

In a price dog fight won’t retain someone on rail.

London - Edinburgh on 1st June
£35 easy jet.
£57 standard (£37.60)
£99 first. (£66.35)

Numbers in brackets are railcard prices.

When you add the transfers on the railcard person may chose rail as they are close. But full fare easyJet is looking better for the pocket. I know the discount is clear for 16-25. But they are in for a shock.

Best stop now as I don’t want to digress too much from topic.

 

[Alteran Ancient]

I know there have been threats to "get rid" of First Class on the SE Mainline, but I think this is largely unnecessary. As SE's 375 fleet has been refurbished, they've been relocating the First Class sections into the middle of the train, reducing the number of FC seats from about 24 down to about 18. On a 12-coach service, that's a potential capacity increase of about 3%. There aren't many people that use FC legitimately, but I do consistently see a few people that have paid for FC and use it to their benefit. They get a seat with slightly better cushioning, an antimacassar (the token object of First Class), a bit more legroom, a better opportunity for a seat and a guaranteed table if they want it.

I did give First Class a trial run for a few weeks here and there (the difference on my Season was less than £20 per week), and the reality on my particular route was this:

• Enforcement was very poor, especially in the PM peak.
• Some PM services were consistently substituted for metro stock with no FC accommodation, despite being booked for FC.
• First Class would frequently be de-classified at the PM peaks.
• In one case, First Class had not been declassified, but was full of people without FC tickets. As a result, I had no seat.
• On one or two rare occasions, I would travel on a peak Thameslink service to/from Bedford (these are booked for FC) - enforcement was non-existent.

In cases 2 and 3, I could obviously claim a refund, and to Southeastern's credit, they quickly approved every single refund I applied for.

So despite that some people do value First Class, at least in Kent commuter land, there is certainly plenty that could be done to improve the apparent value of First Class.

 

[trainophile]

Perhaps the non-validity of a F&F railcard in 1st is that by its nature it requires a child in the party. While I'm sure most children are quiet and well-behaved, some will be too young to understand the need to respect the environment of other passengers. Adults who have paid extra for peace and quiet may become resentful when a noisy child is kicking off in their midst.

 

[al78]

In a price dog fight won’t retain someone on rail.

London - Edinburgh on 1st June
£35 easy jet.
£57 standard (£37.60)
£99 first. (£66.35)

Numbers in brackets are railcard prices.

When you add the transfers on the railcard person may chose rail as they are close. But full fare easyJet is looking better for the pocket. I know the discount is clear for 16-25. But they are in for a shock.

Best stop now as I don’t want to digress too much from topic.

You are ignoring the cost of travel too and from the airports. Airports are not typically located in the places people want to go. Getting too and from railway stations will frequently be cheaper, even free if the passenger can cycle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've spoken to normals who were surprised that there was no type of follow-on railcard.

Possibly not least because in the Sarfeast there *is*, one with some quite generous T&Cs, too, give or take the minimum fare that makes it useless for weekday short journeys. (It basically acts as a Family and Friends without the required child).

 

[Failed Unit]

You are ignoring the cost of travel too and from the airports. Airports are not typically located in the places people want to go. Getting too and from railway stations will frequently be cheaper, even free if the passenger can cycle.

No I am not. I know the cost of getting from Edinburgh Airport to Edinburgh it is £7.50 return and about £20 London to Luton / Gatwick. Hence my comments that the cost is about the same.

Remember not everyone lives in London. I would need to pay to get into London as well as I can’t book in advance from my local station for that date.

 

[AlterEgo]

No I am not. I know the cost of getting from Edinburgh Airport to Edinburgh it is £7.50 return and about £20 London to Luton / Gatwick. Hence my comments that the cost is about the same.

Remember not everyone lives in London. I would need to pay to get into London as well as I can’t book in advance from my local station for that date.

Seems like an odd case study though - the vast, overwhelming majority of rail journeys are not on routes where an airline is a competitor.

 

[Failed Unit]

Seems like an odd case study though - the vast, overwhelming majority of rail journeys are not on routes where an airline is a competitor.

True. The choice is Car. Which has the benefit of door to door connectivity. It to be honest since I got out of railcard territory taken most of my journeys. But if I had given that as an example you would have had howls of protest about it is not just fuel costs etc.

But if I had to travel right now from WGC - Gatwick Airport I would consider.

1. time. (Car wins today as it is a 20 mins walk to station and Thameslink is still slow)
2. Cost. (Depends how long I need to be away for Short term - Car long term train. )
3. reliability- (train. M25 is unpredictable)
4. Comfort - (car)

I would never consider 1st class for this journey. Cost difference to high, if I was spending that kind of money I would take a taxi.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/appeals/appeal-to-wealth/

Are you suggesting that I've made that logical fallacy or that the poster I quoted has? (I apologise if that should be obvious, I'm "on the spectrum" so non-verbal communication can be challenging).

If the former, then I suggest that you are mistaken because I was actually pointing out that it is a fallacy: I believe my post makes that clear. I'm not well-versed in the theory of debating techniques though, so wasn't able to give it a name.

If the latter that's exactly the point I was making, and posting a link with no context doesn't really add to the debate.

 

[yorksrob]

Possibly not least because in the Sarfeast there *is*, one with some quite generous T&Cs, too, give or take the minimum fare that makes it useless for weekday short journeys. (It basically acts as a Family and Friends without the required child).

Indeed. I'm sure most people think logically that what works in the South East should work everywhere else.

 

[The Ham]

Indeed. I'm sure most people think logically that what works in the South East should work everywhere else.

Especially given that many of the TOC's giving Southern England (including down to the south west with a very few limits) offer group save which gives you a discount on rail travel if there's 3 to 9 people traveling without the need for a rail card. Although we are starting to wander off topic.