Your suggestions for the next Southeastern franchise

[uxm]

Which bit, the Stagecoach with Alstom or the Alstom - Siemens merger?

The merger because it would "be detrimental to the Rolling Stock Market"

 

[AlexNL]

The merger hasn't been cancelled yet, but various parties have voiced their concerns. These concerns are now being reviewed by the various market authorities.

 

[Mikey C]

I'm baffled by Stagecoach going with Alstom, surely a massive risk when compared to Bombardier and Siemens who have existing modern trains operating into London, or Hitachi, Stadler and CAF who should have modern EMUs in service by the time Southeastern's arrive. It feel like reinventing the wheel, the UK surely doesn't need SIX different EMU providers?

 

[Metal_gee_man]

It seems sensible with the current fleet of 395s and new franchisee would be daft not to go back to Hitachi and order some metroed out 385s without the curved windscreen because of the expertise of Hitachi already within the workforce, and depot already set up for it!
Choosing another manufacturer that'll require training of workforces, upgrades of maintenance facilities in my eyes makes no sense unless these other trains are bloody cheap, and Hitachi 385 is a bit pricey!

 

[Agent_Squash]

I'm baffled by Stagecoach going with Alstom, surely a massive risk when compared to Bombardier and Siemens who have existing modern trains operating into London, or Hitachi, Stadler and CAF who should have modern EMUs in service by the time Southeastern's arrive. It feel like reinventing the wheel, the UK surely doesn't need SIX different EMU providers?

Pendolino, 458s, 334s - Alstom is already one of those several EMU providers.

 

[Mikey C]

Pendolino, 458s, 334s - Alstom is already one of those several EMU providers.

They're designs from 20 years ago, and the 458s were a disaster!

 

[hwl]

I'm baffled by Stagecoach going with Alstom, surely a massive risk when compared to Bombardier and Siemens who have existing modern trains operating into London, or Hitachi, Stadler and CAF who should have modern EMUs in service by the time Southeastern's arrive. It feel like reinventing the wheel, the UK surely doesn't need SIX different EMU providers?

It also includes doing some signalling work, so Alstom, Siemens and Hitachi probably slight ahead in offering a joined up option ahead of Bombardier and ruling Stadler /CAF out. As the tender is fairly prescriptive on not being "gamed" as regards standing capacity Desiro City would need a big redesign hence possibly less Siemens interest. Hitachi will probably be able to generate synergies from their Ashford base that Alstom can't which will have an effect on bidders costs.

 

[hwl]

They're designs from 20 years ago, and the 458s were a disaster!

Indeed and Washwood Heath is long closed andlook at the number of Alstom products going off lease without home to got soon.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Think it’s somewhat unfair to say the 458s were a disaster.

Let’s be honest, when they got them sorted they were exceptionally reliable and they were very bloody comfortable.

Shame they went and ruined them by doing all the 458/5 programme on them. Would have been vastly better to keep the 460s as 460s with nice big First Class and supplementing them with a 458 to be 12 car at peak times.

 

[yorkie]

This thread is to discuss the Southeastern next franchise.

If you wish to do discuss anything else, please post in an appropriate thread, or create a new one if there isn't one already.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

So it seems South Eastern have announced the end of their franchise on Twitter this evening when someone started slating their actions tonight when they decided to skip stations out of LBG in North Kent....oops

 

[hwl]

So it seems South Eastern have announced the end of their franchise on Twitter this evening when someone started slating their actions tonight when they decided to skip stations out of LBG in North Kent....oopsView attachment 54247

Just stating the obvious - that the same decision would be made who ever the parent company of the operator was

 

[ComUtoR]

So it seems South Eastern have announced the end of their franchise on Twitter this evening when someone started slating their actions tonight when they decided to skip stations out of LBG in North Kent....oops

Its been known about for some time. This was posted earlier this year. (June 27th)

It's been put back numerous times, first to December, then to early 2019. Latest Modern Railways confirms a 1 April 2019 start date.

Posted on GoVias website 26 March 2018

https://www.go-ahead.com/en/media/news/2018/southeastern-direct-award-contract-extension.html

26 Mar 2018
Southeastern Direct Award Contract Extension
The Department for Transport (DfT) has confirmed a 12-week extension to the current Southeastern franchise, from 6 January 2019 to 1 April 2019.

Govia, Go-Ahead’s joint venture with Keolis (Go-Ahead 65%, Keolis 35%), has operated the franchise as Southeastern since 2006.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

It was more a case that there hasn't been more time added to the process after the comments about the bids needing reassessing and the dates changing

 

[hwl]

It was more a case that there hasn't been more time added to the process after the comments about the bids needing reassessing and the dates changing

Yet....

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Yet....

Lol

It amuses me the pessimism of this group at times

 

[HH]

Lol

It amuses me the pessimism of this group at times

It's not pessimism, it's realism. There is still some way to go before announcing a winner (they have to arrive at a first choice, robustness tests have to be carried out, negotiations made); then there's the cool-down before signature. Plus they need to allow at least 3 months for mobilisation (more would be preferable). Theoretically 2 months should be enough time, but given the lengthy sign off process, most of us don't expect DfT to make it.

 

[KX03HZY]

Heard a rumour today Abellio have won this franchise. As with all rumours, this is to be taken with a large pinch of salt.

Will certainly be interesting to see what happens, is the announcement still on for November?

 

[BluePenguin]

*sigh* this is dissappointing news. I am not interested in Abellio as they are rubbish. Can't we have someone who is good at running a TOC for a change? The last few Southeastern franchise holders have been an absolute joke. Connex and Govia have brought us much fustration over the years and now it is possibly Abellio's turn. So we can look forward to a rebranded website and the same awful service, marvellous.

If they can get something right and decrease the journey times to London from East Kent I will re-consider and may change my tune, but until then I am off to sulk.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Wouldn't it go down like a lead balloon politically if they announced the winner as someone who is failing performance standards in Scotland and renegotiating the financial terms south of the border? Then again, it's either that, the same people who brought the 'operation' known as GTR or Stagecoach, which has had its own financial woes.

 

[Andy25]

I'd take any rumours with a pinch of salt.

Still could be any of them.

 

[Roast Veg]

Bidders aren't picked based on public perception - although announcement timings might be

 

[HH]

I'd take any rumours with a pinch of salt.

Still could be any of them.

Some rumours are better than others, but at this stage we can only have a leading bidder. It's too early to have a winner.

 

[E-Rail]

Rail franchising is political and politically, only Abellio could be awarded the franchise in the current climate.

 

[ScotGG]

The least worst option for now perhaps (for the DfT) as GA troubles not in national press.

I await to see how weak this franchise is given GA troubles. So much scope to improve London area passenger numbers off-peak but I can't see any of the 3 doing so.

 

[cactustwirly]

*sigh* this is dissappointing news. I am not interested in Abellio as they are rubbish. Can't we have someone who is good at running a TOC for a change? The last few Southeastern franchise holders have been an absolute joke. Connex and Govia have brought us much fustration over the years and now it is possibly Abellio's turn. So we can look forward to a rebranded website and the same awful service, marvellous.

If they can get something right and decrease the journey times to London from East Kent I will re-consider and may change my tune, but until then I am off to sulk.

I would say of all the bidders, Abellio is definitely the best

 

[HH]

I would say of all the bidders, Abellio is definitely the best

Or maybe the least worst.

Rail franchising is political and politically, only Abellio could be awarded the franchise in the current climate.

Sigh. Since the West Coast fiasco DfT bend over backwards to make sure everything is fair. Whoever wins it will do so because they:
a) Haven't ruled themselves out with a non-compliant bid;
b) Pass the financial stress test; and
c) Have the best price of those remaining.

That will happen on Southeastern.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Or maybe the least worst.


Sigh. Since the West Coast fiasco DfT bend over backwards to make sure everything is fair. Whoever wins it will do so because they:
a) Haven't ruled themselves out with a non-compliant bid;
b) Pass the financial stress test; and
c) Have the best price of those remaining.

That will happen on Southeastern.

Just the best price? Isn't it the best combination of price and timetable/passenger services offered?

 

[Mikey C]

To me the biggest argument against the current rail franchising/private operator model is that so many of the franchisees are discredited for one reason or another, whether it's for operational mismanagement or getting the numbers completely wrong.It's becoming really hard to award a contract to anyone who doesn't have a recent black mark against their name

 

[HH]

Just the best price? Isn't it the best combination of price and timetable/passenger services offered?

Theoretically it's a combination of the price and the total "quality" of the bid (as defined and measured by DfT), of which timetables and customer service are a part. However, in practice, the Q score rarely makes a difference. The ITT is so highly specified these days that bidders know the boxes they have to tick, so there's usually not a significant difference between bidders on Q. Also, one might offer a better Rolling Stock plan, while the other might offer a better timetable, etc. It's very hard to win on Q.