Your ideas for the Thameslink service pattern

[Ianno87]

And therefore you insert the Cannon Street starters. Even at peak, the paths still exist but are just a 4/5 minute gap to accommodate the XKE crossing move.

The paths cease to exist at Cannon Street itself due to conflicts at Borough Market Jn, unless something else is removed.

 

[JonathanH]

I understand the Thameslink Rainham is being swapped for a Reigate, therefore no; something else need not come out.

No it isn't. The most likely scenario is that Bedford to Gatwick trains get diverted to Reigate, Victoria to Reigate trains get diverted to Gatwick.

The work at Reigate to facilitate longer trains does not have funding or approval so it is some way off yet.

Putting an extra train pair through East Croydon is somewhat unlikely before the major works (that similarly don't have approval) are complete in any case.

The Thameslink Rainham cannot be diverted to any route that passes through East Croydon.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

No it isn't. The most likely scenario is that Bedford to Gatwick trains get diverted to Reigate, Victoria to Reigate trains get diverted to Gatwick.

The work at Reigate to facilitate longer trains does not have funding or approval so it is some way off yet.

Putting an extra train pair through East Croydon is somewhat unlikely before the major works (that similarly don't have approval) are complete in any case.

The Thameslink Rainham cannot be diverted to any route that passes through East Croydon.

Yet* they can’t run through Croydon. Eventually I wouldn’t be massively shocked if something like 20 of the 24tph run via London Bridge, with a mixture of Slow and Fast-side running around Croydon to various places.

 

[JonathanH]

Yet* they can’t run through Croydon. Eventually I wouldn’t be massively shocked if something like 20 of the 24tph run via London Bridge, with a mixture of Slow and Fast-side running around Croydon to various places.

Really?

You appear to be advocating the truncation of Sutton loop trains at Blackfriars, continuing to run Sevenoaks and Orpington services through and 20tph via New Cross Gate. I don't think that is realistic at all.

Putting (more) 8-car units into the mix through Croydon at peak times wouldn't be sensible on routes that are suitable for longer trains[1]
It wasn't possible to slot them into the stopping service via New Cross Gate with the intensive service to the East London Line.
They can't realistically be sent to either Caterham or Tattenham Corner as there isn't capacity between Croydon and Purley.

[1] I appreciate that (theoretical) 10-car units could operate to Rainham but that doesn't mean it is right to run 8-car trains to Croydon instead.

 

[Ianno87]

Really?

You appear to be advocating the truncation of Sutton loop trains at Blackfriars, continuing to run Sevenoaks and Orpington services through and 20tph via New Cross Gate. I don't think that is realistic at all.

Putting (more) 8-car units into the mix through Croydon at peak times wouldn't be sensible on routes that are suitable for longer trains.

Aren't lots of the platforms on the MML 12-car capable anyway (or SDO otherwise)? So would "just" need St Albans siding lengthening to make the current Sutton loopers 12 car and divert them via London Bridge.

 

[JonathanH]

Aren't lots of the platforms on the MML 12-car capable anyway (or SDO otherwise)? So would "just" need St Albans siding lengthening to make the current Sutton loopers 12 car and divert them via London Bridge.

Yes

It doesn't seem very likely that anyone is going to order extra carriages so presumably we are stuck with 60 8-cars and 55 12-cars. There is also the issue of stabling space for more 12-car units. It seems a bit disappointing that it hasn't been possible to use the 707s to allow 10-car running on the Rainham services. I appreciate they would need changes to the power available.

 

[Ianno87]

Yes

It doesn't seem very likely that anyone is going to order extra carriages so presumably we are stuck with 60 8-cars and 55 12-cars. There is also the issue of stabling space for more 12-car units.

This is a plan for 10-15 years time, not next week, so extra rolling stock could be on the table (you would need extra anyway by virtue of having more services to run)

 

[JonathanH]

This is a plan for 10-15 years time, not next week, so extra rolling stock could be on the table (you would need extra anyway by virtue of having more services to run)

By which time the existing 700s will be at just short of half life and surely it won't be possible to justify the higher lease costs. It is one of the problems of a dedicated fleet that any new units are likely to be replaced at the same time as the existing ones. What 'more services' are going to run on the Thameslink route in any case?

The missing aspects of the current timetable at Croydon appear to be some sort of Victoria to Redhill fast and local connections from South London to East Croydon, not connections to Thameslink.

 

[Ianno87]

By which time the existing 700s will be at just short of half life and surely it won't be possible to justify the higher lease costs. It is one of the problems of a dedicated fleet that any new units are likely to be replaced at the same time as the existing ones. What 'more services' are going to run on the Thameslink route in any case?

Today you run St Albans-Sutton loop 4 times per hour.

Future will be 4 trains per hour St Albans-London Bridge-BML *and* 4 trains per hour Blackfriars-Sutton loop.

I.e. more trains.

 

[MotCO]

I accept that someone has probably worked out where the demand for services is, but I wonder if there can be some variety. For example, do all Orpington trains need to be Luton to Orpington? Can they alternate e.g. to Peterborough or St Albans, giving passengers a greater variety of services? An Orpington passenger for Peterborough either catches the direct train, or if they cannot wait, they take the Luton train and change in the Core. Ditto for other services.

 

[JonathanH]

I accept that someone has probably worked out where the demand for services is, but I wonder if there can be some variety. For example, do all Orpington trains need to be Luton to Orpington? Can they alternate e.g. to Peterborough or St Albans, giving passengers a greater variety of services? An Orpington passenger for Peterborough either catches the direct train, or if they cannot wait, they take the Luton train and change in the Core. Ditto for other services.

That sort of thing is really complex to organise when so many services are operating. It involves the trains running at slightly different times in each half hour through the core or on the approaches.

In theory, the Sevenoaks route is meant to go to Welwyn in the peaks but that service hasn't started yet.

 

[AM9]

I accept that someone has probably worked out where the demand for services is, but I wonder if there can be some variety. For example, do all Orpington trains need to be Luton to Orpington? Can they alternate e.g. to Peterborough or St Albans, giving passengers a greater variety of services? An Orpington passenger for Peterborough either catches the direct train, or if they cannot wait, they take the Luton train and change in the Core. Ditto for other services.

Well St Albans originating passengers can get on a Luton starting train, - there's usually plenty of room still.