YouGov Petition

[Paul68]

First of all hello to everyone!

Like many on here I am a hard pressed commuter fed up with shoddy service, dirty and late trains and particularly, most recently, fed up with being slow cooked in train carriages that have no air-con, many of which don't even have windows that open.

So in an attempt at getting something done about this disgusting situation I plan to start a YouGov petition asking for: train companies to be forced to install air-con on ALL trains by year end 2018, introduce legislation limiting the temperature on passenger trains to no more than is currently allowed for transporting livestock and for random checks to be carried out by rail regulators to ensure compliance with the above.

Yes I know it's a longshot and yes I know it will probably come to nothing. But I figure it is at least trying to do something and has more chance of changing things than simply moaning about it!

Anyway, in order to start the petition I need the email addresses of five supporters. So if this is something you might support and are willing to add your name to the petition, then please message me your email address.

Many thanks and please feel free to ask any questions or chip in with comments.

 

[northwichcat]

There's a December 2019 deadline for trains being accessible and train toilets no longer dumping waste on to the tracks, so I think any additional requirements before then will be unrealistic to implement.

Realistic alternatives could be for all new trains to be built with air-con (which I think most already are) or/and a mid 2020s deadline for existing trains to be fitted with air-con.

 

[RepTCTC]

As long as it clearly states that those petitioning are happy to pay for the improvements in question via fares, and that there won't be any moaning about the inevitable disruption that such a programme would cause then I'm in.

If not then it's just another "Get someone else to buy me sweeties .... pwease!" piece of dross.

 

[Llanigraham]

And who will pay for these "improvements"?

 

[skyhigh]

...introduce legislation limiting the temperature on passenger trains to no more than is currently allowed for transporting livestock and for random checks to be carried out by rail regulators to ensure compliance with the above.

I was on a train on Tuesday, when it was very hot - the air-con failed during the journey and with delays, the temperature on board got up to about 40°C. In my opinion I'd rather they still ran the train rather than cancelling it and making me wait on a hot platform for another... I'd also agree with what others have said, fitting air-con to all trains by the end of 2018 is unrealistic. Does this mean Pacers would have to have it fitted?

 

[NSEFAN]

How much rolling stock is there in service that doesn't use aircon? How much will it cost to retro-fit to trains that weren't built with it in mind? 2018 is far too ambitious in my view.

Emergency-openable windows on stock in case of aircon failure would however be a nice feature. Six lockable hopper windows per carriage would be enough to provide the airflow when the train is moving.

 

[LLivery]

I believe not all trains can even be fitted with air-con. While Southeastern's 376s could and should be, I doubt a Pacer or most Sprinters could or even should be.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I believe not all trains can even be fitted with air-con. While Southeastern's 376s could and should be, I doubt a Pacer or most Sprinters could or even should be.

Sprinters can be fitted, the Express Sprinters are already fitted (Class 158/Class 159) and their air conditioning system was tested on the Class 150 unit (which became a Class 154 unit for a time). The bodyshell (Mark 3 MU) can accommodate an air conditioning unit in the roof space above the door, subject to modifications which Wabtec can undertake (at a cost).

The Class 156s should also be able to accommodate air conditioning modules - the basic bodyshell was adapted to become the Class 175/Class 180 fleet, but the cost and scale of work will likely be quite extreme, it would probably require an upgraded alternator package and possibly an engine power output upgrade in tandem. The Class 156 is the only stock that should have air conditioning which doesn't, I'd argue.

The problem with everything else is even with air conditioning, station stops and door opening intervals are too frequent to actually allow the air conditioning to cool the passenger saloon. That's even true for things like the Class 376 fleet.

 

[centraltrains]

Hang on,

Isn't YouGov a company which collects statistical data to sell to companies which is owned by one of the major newspapers?

Surely a ePetition would be the thing to start?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem, I find, isn't trains without aircon, as you can open the windows (no trains have sealed windows and no aircon). The problem is non-working aircon, such as the older systems fitted to 16x and 158s.

I would suggest it should be part of all new franchise agreements to fully replace these systems with ones that work, or to switch to opening windows at every bay.

 

[northwichcat]

I would suggest it should be part of all new franchise agreements to fully replace these systems with ones that work, or to switch to opening windows at every bay.

New windows on all Sprinters would be beneficial. Ignoring the 158s many have hopper windows which allows rain to come in to the train.

 

[Paul68]

Yes you're right 2018 probably is unrealistic but the point is to start the debate
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As long as it clearly states that those petitioning are happy to pay for the improvements in question via fares, and that there won't be any moaning about the inevitable disruption that such a programme would cause then I'm in.

If not then it's just another "Get someone else to buy me sweeties .... pwease!" piece of dross.

Thank you for your most erudite and mature response.

I’m guessing you’re probably not a commuter and are therefore not aware of the appalling conditions that many thousands of people have to endure daily simply to get to work. You have probably not seen elderly or frail people passing out due to the excessive heat in very cramped conditions, or seen anyone suffer a heart attack because of those same conditions and have to be rushed to hospital. You probably don’t pay thousands of pounds per year for a sub-standard service, staffed by people that seem to think their customers are entitled to less tolerable conditions than animals are legally entitled to. Therefore you probably don’t understand my concern and probably don’t care much either.

Perhaps you think that our railway system is fine as it is? Or that it is unreasonable that when we see fares increase annually by rates well in excess of inflation, supposedly to fund improvements, that we might actually want to see some improvements made?

So no, I do not expect anyone else to pay, as commuters are already paying enough!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Aren't we already paying enough? Using that argument do you not want to see any further improvements made to our railway system? Do you think it is fine as is?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sprinters can be fitted, the Express Sprinters are already fitted (Class 158/Class 159) and their air conditioning system was tested on the Class 150 unit (which became a Class 154 unit for a time). The bodyshell (Mark 3 MU) can accommodate an air conditioning unit in the roof space above the door, subject to modifications which Wabtec can undertake (at a cost).

The Class 156s should also be able to accommodate air conditioning modules - the basic bodyshell was adapted to become the Class 175/Class 180 fleet, but the cost and scale of work will likely be quite extreme, it would probably require an upgraded alternator package and possibly an engine power output upgrade in tandem. The Class 156 is the only stock that should have air conditioning which doesn't, I'd argue.

The problem with everything else is even with air conditioning, station stops and door opening intervals are too frequent to actually allow the air conditioning to cool the passenger saloon. That's even true for things like the Class 376 fleet.

Point taken but I have travelled on several trains with air con that is excellent. The problem is that most don't have it, nor even cold air blowers

 

[northwichcat]

And who will pay for these "improvements"?

Aren't we already paying enough? Using that argument do you not want to see any further improvements made to our railway system? Do you think it is fine as is?

Well overall the railways cost more to run than they take through fares so you'll always have civil servants questioning whether improvements are viable. However, the counter-argument is why do some people who are paying proportionally low fares get modern air conditioned trains, while others paying proportionally higher fares get old Pacers which not only don't have air conditioning but pump waste engine heat in to the saloon?

 

[Paul68]

Opening windows are not sufficient to cool a carriage in hot conditions where people are crammed in, especially when trains are at a stand or slow moving for extended periods
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well overall the railways cost more to run than they take through fares so you'll always have civil servants questioning whether improvements are viable. However, the counter-argument is why do some people who are paying proportionally low fares get modern air conditioned trains, while others paying proportionally higher fares get old Pacers which not only don't have air conditioning but pump waste engine heat in to the saloon?

Excellent point!

 

[Domh245]

And who will pay for these "improvements"?

I think that Eversholt are financing the fitting of AC to the GA 321s?

 

[notlob.divad]

First of all hello to everyone!

Like many on here I am a hard pressed commuter fed up with shoddy service, dirty and late trains and particularly, most recently, fed up with being slow cooked in train carriages that have no air-con, many of which don't even have windows that open.

So in an attempt at getting something done about this disgusting situation I plan to start a YouGov petition asking for: train companies to be forced to install air-con on ALL trains by year end 2018, introduce legislation limiting the temperature on passenger trains to no more than is currently allowed for transporting livestock and for random checks to be carried out by rail regulators to ensure compliance with the above.

Yes I know it's a longshot and yes I know it will probably come to nothing. But I figure it is at least trying to do something and has more chance of changing things than simply moaning about it!

Anyway, in order to start the petition I need the email addresses of five supporters. So if this is something you might support and are willing to add your name to the petition, then please message me your email address.

Many thanks and please feel free to ask any questions or chip in with comments.

Firstly, welcome to the Forum. Out of interest does you regular journey utilize air conditioned rolling stock, (where the air con may have failed) or stock where windows can be opened to attempt to regulate the temperature?

Personally I don't think it unreasonable to expect a defined comfort level for passengers with respect to temperature, however I like others think the idea of getting it implemented in the next 18 months to be wildly optimistic. As others have said there are certain regulations coming in by 2020 which will see accessibility and retaining toilets brought to all trains. So maybe it is something to look for as a 2035/2040 deadline by which point most of the stock that does not have air conditioning fitted already will be coming towards end of life.

For Information, the regulation you are looking at is here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/farm-animal-welfare-during-transportation
however I am not sure they will give you the outcome you desire.

From what I can see the regulations only come in for journeys of over 8 hours, and I might be wrong, but I think in the UK it is only the sleeper trains that are scheduled for end to end journey times greater than this on a single train.

Even then the regulations are to keep the temperatures within the region 0 to 35 deg C, which may be a larger range than you where expecting. I don't think any new trains are being built without comprehensive temperature control so when new trains are being introduced I think your wish (save for potential failures) will be met without regulation.

You can argue and possibly rightly so that a train should not be allowed into a days service if the systems are not working, this would require unproductive rolling stock to be sat around waiting to be used, however then people would be complaining why the stock isn't being used to relieve overcrowding. None of this would prevent a failure during the day. So the question to ask is, what do you want the train to do if there is a HVAC failure? Stop at the next station, kick every passenger off, cancel the service and return to the depot for maintenance? In which case what of all the passengers abandoned including all of the passengers on any return working of that unit?

 

[Paul68]

Ok yes there are lots of rolling stock out there that would need updating and yes it would cost a lot. But are you really saying that we should not bother to do anything about it? It will take years and years before there are modern trains on all busy commuter lines. I will probably have retired long before that happens!

This is a real problem that affects peoples health and it needs to be addressed. I accept my deadline might be wildly optimistic and I accept that some people might not sympathise with the point, but I guess we'll see when I post the petition.

Oh and yes I stand corrected it's not YouGov it is petition.parliament.uk.

 

[Deepgreen]

Although it may not be anywhere a balance, let's not forget that over-heating is a major cause of passenger illness on trains, and the costly delays that often ensue.

 

[Paul68]

Firstly, welcome to the Forum. Out of interest does you regular journey utilize air conditioned rolling stock, (where the air con may have failed) or stock where windows can be opened to attempt to regulate the temperature?

Personally I don't think it unreasonable to expect a defined comfort level for passengers with respect to temperature, however I like others think the idea of getting it implemented in the next 18 months to be wildly optimistic. As others have said there are certain regulations coming in by 2020 which will see accessibility and retaining toilets brought to all trains. So maybe it is something to look for as a 2035/2040 deadline by which point most of the stock that does not have air conditioning fitted already will be coming towards end of life.

For Information, the regulation you are looking at is here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/farm-animal-welfare-during-transportation
however I am not sure they will give you the outcome you desire.

From what I can see the regulations only come in for journeys of over 8 hours, and I might be wrong, but I think in the UK it is only the sleeper trains that are scheduled for end to end journey times greater than this on a single train.

Even then the regulations are to keep the temperatures within the region 0 to 35 deg C, which may be a larger range than you where expecting. I don't think any new trains are being built without comprehensive temperature control so when new trains are being introduced I think your wish (save for potential failures) will be met without regulation.

You can argue and possibly rightly so that a train should not be allowed into a days service if the systems are not working, this would require unproductive rolling stock to be sat around waiting to be used, however then people would be complaining why the stock isn't being used to relieve overcrowding. None of this would prevent a failure during the day. So the question to ask is, what do you want the train to do if there is a HVAC failure? Stop at the next station, kick every passenger off, cancel the service and return to the depot for maintenance? In which case what of all the passengers abandoned including all of the passengers on any return working of that unit?

On my line we have opening windows which are not really sufficient to cool the carriage, especially on days where the heaters are on as well! There are air conditioned trains as well, but they only run a shuttle service between the last three stops!

You raise some good points and I will take them into consideration when I post the petition. The deadline is unrealistic I know, but frankly so is waiting until 2035. Something needs to be done in the not too distant future.

As for your comment about what to do when there is a failure of an air con unit mid journey. My answer (which I accept will probably come in for criticism) would be to finish the journey then send it for repair. I think there needs to be some common sense exercised here as this is only a problem during hot weather. I don't accept that there isn't a solution, even if it isn't fitting air con!

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Although it may not be anywhere a balance, let's not forget that over-heating is a major cause of passenger illness on trains, and the costly delays that often ensue.

Now that's a very good point to discuss within the industry.

A quick look in the TDA guide and I note ILL PASS gets the delay code 'VD'. I love the railway - wonder if that was deliberate or a quirky twist of fate.

 

[theageofthetra]

Another cost of the farce of inadequate A/C systems are passengers pulling Passcoms or Egress handles due to apalling conditions inside during delays- how much does this cost the industry? - re the 376's I remember well at the time some spokesperson (Connex?) Using the well used lie that A/C doesn't work on services with frequent stops when there are plenty of metro systems I have travelled on which have perfectly funtioning A/C with far more frequent stops and in higher temps than we ever normally get. It was done to save money as it was with the idiotic decision not to fit it to Edinburgh trams.

 

[Bantamzen]

First of all hello to everyone!

Like many on here I am a hard pressed commuter fed up with shoddy service, dirty and late trains and particularly, most recently, fed up with being slow cooked in train carriages that have no air-con, many of which don't even have windows that open.

So in an attempt at getting something done about this disgusting situation I plan to start a YouGov petition asking for: train companies to be forced to install air-con on ALL trains by year end 2018, introduce legislation limiting the temperature on passenger trains to no more than is currently allowed for transporting livestock and for random checks to be carried out by rail regulators to ensure compliance with the above.

Yes I know it's a longshot and yes I know it will probably come to nothing. But I figure it is at least trying to do something and has more chance of changing things than simply moaning about it!

Anyway, in order to start the petition I need the email addresses of five supporters. So if this is something you might support and are willing to add your name to the petition, then please message me your email address.

Many thanks and please feel free to ask any questions or chip in with comments.

I'm afraid your 18 month timescale is completely unrealistic, both logistically and financially. For a start many operators (known on here as Train Operating Companies, or TOCs) lease stock from other companies (known as Rolling Stock Operators, or ROSCOs) whom in turn are financed to buy stock to lease usually by large financial institutions. Any improvements to existing stock need to be costed, as well as the impact of stock being away for refits will have on the TOC's timetabling. This alone would take months to impact, even before you procure and fit the AC units, especially given the limited number of sites where this work could be done. It's not just a case of a quick trip down to your local garage, and thinking about even a car having AC installed would take time! On top of this a number of operators who use non-AC'd units are either in upgrade programmes or have stock on order via the ROSCOs. So why would a TOC/ROSCO consider quickly installing AC units into trains that will be coming to the end of their lease / operating life in a few years anyway?

But the biggest question of all is just how often do AC units actually come into their own? The UK doesn't exactly have heatwave after heatwave these days, more often it's a heating issue that's of more concern. All trains have some form of heating units onboard, and for those that don't have AC most have windows that open. In fact some units that came with AC units as new are now suffering their own issues with failures, and because their design meant that few in any opening windows were needed mean that they can get hotter inside than those without AC.

Frankly I would prefer TOCs / ROSCOs to concentrate on the current programme of procuring new stock & upgrading existing units to make them more comfortable, ensure existing heating / AC units are fully functional and that those without AC units have suitable and operational ventilation. Stopping everything and concentrating on AC units for all will only result in worse conditions for many more, as well as adding delays, cancellations and most of all cost to all commuters.

It is also probably worth saying that many posters on here work in or have an interest in the rail network, and many more use and commute on trains as often and more than you do. I myself commute every day, so I know exactly the kind of problems that we face and what should be priority. Taking swipes at posters as you did a bit earlier will not endear you here, and certainly won't make the case for your petition stronger. There are some very knowledgeable people on here, and it's worth taking time to read and understand all arguments.

 

[Sprinter153]

Thank you for your most erudite and mature response.

I’m guessing you’re probably not a commuter and are therefore not aware of the appalling conditions that many thousands of people have to endure daily simply to get to work. You have probably not seen elderly or frail people passing out due to the excessive heat in very cramped conditions, or seen anyone suffer a heart attack because of those same conditions and have to be rushed to hospital. You probably don’t pay thousands of pounds per year for a sub-standard service, staffed by people that seem to think their customers are entitled to less tolerable conditions than animals are legally entitled to. Therefore you probably don’t understand my concern and probably don’t care much either.

Perhaps you think that our railway system is fine as it is? Or that it is unreasonable that when we see fares increase annually by rates well in excess of inflation, supposedly to fund improvements, that we might actually want to see some improvements made?

So no, I do not expect anyone else to pay, as commuters are already paying enough!

Oh dear, if this was commuter cliché bingo my dabber would have run out of ink.

You aren't forced to travel in overcrowded conditions.
Quite often as a railway we will ask people not to board services or provide information which services are full and standing. People still cram themselves on, even if there's another train in three or four minutes, because they have to be on that train and why should they have to wait? Or if the trains are really so bad take another mode of transport, or find more flexible or closer work.

Yes, there are problems, and yes, appropriate temperature of rolling stock is important, but there are times when things like AC fail, and I'm sorry but of course it's going to be hot. I had a set the other day that had failed AC, but it made more sense to continue the journey. I wouldn't, in an ideal world, but people would complain if they didn't get where they wanted to go because of an AC-related cancellation.

And I'm sorry, but most of us don't think you aren't entitled to good conditions. There are lots of us that try hard to make sure you get there as comfortably as possible. But this isn't an ideal world and things do go wrong!

 

[Llanigraham]

Although it may not be anywhere a balance, let's not forget that over-heating is a major cause of passenger illness on trains, and the costly delays that often ensue.

Evidence of that, please?

 

[EM2]

Although it may not be anywhere a balance, let's not forget that over-heating is a major cause of passenger illness on trains, and the costly delays that often ensue.

In many first-aid cases that I've attended where someone has felt ill or faint on a train, them not having eaten or drank anything (especially in the morning peak) has been a contributory factor.

 

[theblackwatch]

On my line we have opening windows which are not really sufficient to cool the carriage, especially on days where the heaters are on as well! There are air conditioned trains as well, but they only run a shuttle service between the last three stops!

You raise some good points and I will take them into consideration when I post the petition. The deadline is unrealistic I know, but frankly so is waiting until 2035. Something needs to be done in the not too distant future.

As for your comment about what to do when there is a failure of an air con unit mid journey. My answer (which I accept will probably come in for criticism) would be to finish the journey then send it for repair. I think there needs to be some common sense exercised here as this is only a problem during hot weather. I don't accept that there isn't a solution, even if it isn't fitting air con!

If trains have to be sent for repair when air-con fails, rather than possibly stay in service for the rest of the day, then you'll have to accept there will be more cancellations or short formed trains as a result. Is this what commuters would prefer? (And that's a genuine question - not a criticism.)

 

[LLivery]

Sprinters can be fitted, the Express Sprinters are already fitted (Class 158/Class 159) and their air conditioning system was tested on the Class 150 unit (which became a Class 154 unit for a time). The bodyshell (Mark 3 MU) can accommodate an air conditioning unit in the roof space above the door, subject to modifications which Wabtec can undertake (at a cost).

The Class 156s should also be able to accommodate air conditioning modules - the basic bodyshell was adapted to become the Class 175/Class 180 fleet, but the cost and scale of work will likely be quite extreme, it would probably require an upgraded alternator package and possibly an engine power output upgrade in tandem. The Class 156 is the only stock that should have air conditioning which doesn't, I'd argue.

The problem with everything else is even with air conditioning, station stops and door opening intervals are too frequent to actually allow the air conditioning to cool the passenger saloon. That's even true for things like the Class 376 fleet.

Ah! I forgot the Expresses had air-con but I stand corrected on the others! As for the 376s I understand thats why they were never built with air-con, however with the 378s being like fridges on wheels, it really shouldn't be a issue now.

 

[DarloRich]

Not going to happen within the time suggested - there won't be capacity within the market to deliver ( or the will to do so by the TOC/Rosco)

 

[Phil.]

As long as it clearly states that those petitioning are happy to pay for the improvements in question via fares, and that there won't be any moaning about the inevitable disruption that such a programme would cause then I'm in.

If not then it's just another "Get someone else to buy me sweeties .... pwease!" piece of dross.

Improve the service level for the punters? Never! Who do these people think that they are demanding suchlike.

 

[ComUtoR]

What would be the point anyway ? for the few measley days we get decent hot weather you want to spend billions of pounds on air conditioning and for that cost to be passed on to the passenger ?

While we are at it can we force the TOC's to install miniature snow ploughs to every unit and heated collector shoes ?

What about forcing the TOC's to provide a 100% covered station platform to provide shelter from the rain ?