You must sit in your reserved seat!

[DarloRich]

I wonder if anyone could help me with some advice.

I traveled upon a certain open access operator in Yorkshire and encountered an issue i have not come across before. I was instructed by the guard that i MUST sit in my reserved seat or else!

Is this the correct application of the conditions of carriage? When challenged the guard responded with:

1) We are an open access operator so have our own rules
2) Advance tickets reduce flexibility particularly with regard to seating (!)
3) The train is very busy ( it wasn't at this point) followed by it will be later followed by
4) All the seats are reserved but for a very small number (they were but were not all filled)
5) Removing the ticket from an unoccupied seat and allowing someone else to sit there wasn't acceptable as "it doesn't work like that"
6) 50 walk up passengers are coming (they didn't! - how would he know?)


thanks

 

[LexyBoy]

The guard was correct, you "must" sit in your booked seat. See here. Rarely enforced of course.

 

[DarloRich]

The guard was correct, you "must" sit in your booked seat. See here. Rarely enforced of course.

Thanks I couldn't find it in the conditions of carriage

The custom and practice is that the restriction is not enforced though? I have never come across it in my time travelling.

 

[gordonthemoron]

hardly ever sit in my reserved seat on VTWC

 

[Clip]

Thanks I couldn't find it in the conditions of carriage

The custom and practice is that the restriction is not enforced though? I have never come across it in my time travelling.

Generally not for the main IC providers but I guess with GC having limited seating and services they may want to enforce it more so that walk up passengers have more chance of getting a seat so more chance of repeat custom from them.

Is my theory

 

[AM9]

Generally not for the main IC providers but I guess with GC having limited seating and services they may want to enforce it more so that walk up passengers have more chance of getting a seat so more chance of repeat custom from them.

Is my theory

Do they give you a choice of seat when booking?

 

[edwin_m]

Had that been enforced on EMT on Tuesday, I would have had to make a complaint about four people who were making a huge amount of noise in contravention of the byelaw about not causing annoyance to others (me!). As it was I just moved to another coach...

 

[yorksrob]

Generally not for the main IC providers but I guess with GC having limited seating and services they may want to enforce it more so that walk up passengers have more chance of getting a seat so more chance of repeat custom from them.

Is my theory

Although since the moved passenger would have had a seat anyway, a walk on passenger would still have had the same number of free seats to choose from.

 

[NSEFAN]

For practical purposes, being on the right train is of much greater interest to the TOC for advance tickets, otherwise their yield management isn't effective.

That said, I have been on an XC Voyager where the seat reservation system had failed and the guard was insisting that everyone sat in their reserved whilst she laboriously printed out the reservations from her own ticket machine! Supposedly it was to minimise the chance of conflicts between passengers. Ironically she got in an argument with a passenger about how ridiculous she was being in trying to manually print an entire train's worth of reservation labels from her own machine.

 

[Metrailway]

Although since the moved passenger would have had a seat anyway, a walk on passenger would still have had the same number of free seats to choose from.

In theory yes but in practice no.

Many (maybe even the majority of) walk on passengers who see the reservation sign/label will leave that seat vacant and try to find an unreserved seat or stand in the vestibules.

After using West Coast and CrossCountry services regularly from Birmingham New St, I've come to the opinion that this rule should be regularly enforced on busy trains. If this is not practical, then at least charge extra for seat reservations (you can still tie advance pax to a specific train without a seat reservation).

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Absolutely not, there is no "REQUIREMENT" to occupy your booked seat. You can occupy any seat that isnt already occupied or otherwise reserved as long as you are travelling on the booked service stated on your ticket, and subject to the appropriate class of accommodation you have paid for. I tell that to my passengers, as people often want to switch directions or occupy a seat with a power plug. as long as you are not removing reservation labels that are otherwise required by other passengers then there is no reason why you cannot remove your own reservation label.

Realistically, how would we enforce such a requirement? By charging for a new ticket? Theres nothing in the supplements on avantix, and i am certainly not going to enforce any such ruling. It would be far more hassle than my what my job is worth! I think common sense would prevail here, but if there are guards etc upholding such a ruling "by the letter" i think they would need to ask themselves what such action is saying about their role as responsible train managers. Such draconian enforcement does nothing for the passengers travelling environment or for the company concerned

 

[Jonfun]

For practical purposes, being on the right train is of much greater interest to the TOC for advance tickets, otherwise their yield management isn't effective.

That said, I have been on an XC Voyager where the seat reservation system had failed and the guard was insisting that everyone sat in their reserved whilst she laboriously printed out the reservations from her own ticket machine! Supposedly it was to minimise the chance of conflicts between passengers. Ironically she got in an argument with a passenger about how ridiculous she was being in trying to manually print an entire train's worth of reservation labels from her own machine.

There's a lot you could call printing out the reservations on Avantix, repetitive, paper-hungry, perhaps, but "laborious" and "ridiculous" really are pushing things a bit. It's standard practice when the reservation system doesn't work and the origin station doesn't have the facility to print reservation labels.

 

[34D]

Generally not for the main IC providers but I guess with GC having limited seating and services they may want to enforce it more so that walk up passengers have more chance of getting a seat so more chance of repeat custom from them.

Is my theory

I rather suspected it would be HT from the info given?

 

[westv]

I rather suspected it would be HT from the info given?

If it was it might have been the guard I have seen twice. Has a beard and asks for ID to be provided with print at home tix.

 

[MrMole]

Might be reasonable if you could choose your specific seat, not just window/aisle etc. I had a reserved seat on a FGW HST and the allocated seat was 'window' but was actually one of the few that face a full blank panel between windows. Ridiculous that someone making the effort to reserve a seat in advance is allocated one of the worst seats on the train. I immediately moved to a seat where I could see out!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

With print at home you are required to produce some sort of ID to link you with the ticket, otherwise a ticket might be repeatedly printed and possibly photoshopped. The background print should make this extremely difficult, but i have known it to happen. Often the purchasing card is enough, alternatively some sort of ID is required, and you have to indicate the ID used when you book the ticket. So to be asked for that ID is normal practice

 

[suzanneparis]

I strongly object to passengers with seat reservations not using them. Because being rather timid I am afraid to sit in a seat displaying a reserved sign. Hence I end up standing whilst the passenger with the reservation is sitting in another seat and the reserved seat ends up empty.

 

[beeza1]

Many (maybe even the majority of) walk on passengers who see the reservation sign/label will leave that seat vacant and try to find an unreserved seat or stand in the vestibules.

This is exactly what happens with the crazy 10 minute reservations policy operated by Cross Country, the original message "available but may be reserved.........." was confusing to the occasional traveller, and the new notices aren't much better. I'm amazed they haven't abandoned it, it just causes ill feeling, you are asked to vacate the seat you have occupied for, maybe 2 hours by someone who bought their ticket 10mins before boarding, surely that's not right.
As I have posted before I have seen quite a few, sometimes very heated, arguments caused by this silly system.

 

[MCR247]

In my opinion, the only time it would be reasonable for a TOC to enforce this would be if they allowed you to choose your own seat when booking

 

[westv]

With print at home you are required to produce some sort of ID to link you with the ticket, otherwise a ticket might be repeatedly printed and possibly photoshopped. The background print should make this extremely difficult, but i have known it to happen. Often the purchasing card is enough, alternatively some sort of ID is required, and you have to indicate the ID used when you book the ticket. So to be asked for that ID is normal practice

No it isn't normal. I use VTEC and HT every week and have only been asked to show ID twice - by the same guard.

 

[beeza1]

In my opinion, the only time it would be reasonable for a TOC to enforce this would be if they allowed you to choose your own seat when booking

If you book your tickets on the Cross Country website you can choose your own seat when booking, but you still don't have to travel on your specified train, unless on an Advance ticket of course.
What I would like to see is any reserved seat that has not been "claimed" within say 10mins of leaving the station becomes "available".

 

[Ianigsy]

I can see why you might be asked to take your reserved seat so as to keep as many unreserved seats available for walk-up passengers, but ideally there should be some leeway- the unit could be running in reverse formation so your facing seat is the other way round from what you booked, or you may feel uncomfortable with one of your fellow passengers.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

I strongly object to passengers with seat reservations not using them. Because being rather timid I am afraid to sit in a seat displaying a reserved sign. Hence I end up standing whilst the passenger with the reservation is sitting in another seat and the reserved seat ends up empty.

Anyone can occupy a seat out of its reserved area, just because it is reserved doesnt mean its reserved for the whole journey, you can occupy the seat until the station it is reserved from, and after the reservation destination. Plus also-and this is good practice for managing a train- where a reservation hasnt been claimed, the seat can also be occupied by anyone. A good train manager should be proactively removing reservations that arent required, indeed it is in our briefs to do so.

 

[TUC]

The reason I fairly often don't sit in my reserved seat is the number of occasions I have requested a window seat with a table, only to find that, not only is my reserved seat an aisle one without a table, but there are unreserved window table seats. If TOCs want customers to sit in their reserved seats they should at least make sure that their reservation systems meet customer requirements whenever possible.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

No it isn't normal. I use VTEC and HT every week and have only been asked to show ID twice - by the same guard.

If staff are choosing not to ask for ID verification, that is down to the individual guard, however take it from a trained and operational guard that if you read the small print you are required to show supporting ID documentation which you have confirmed on your booking. So yes it is standard practice.

 

[richw]

I've read a few posts about people wouldn't sit in a seat with a label, which interests me.
If I got on at say station C and a seat is reserved from station A to D but is clearly unoccupied I would sit in it.

Likewise if it's reserved from A to D and I got on at E I would occupy that seat, some of the posts here I've understood to mean that if they saw a label they wouldn't sit there. Maybe I'm misinterpreted those posts,

 

[gimmea50anyday]

If TOCs want customers to sit in their reserved seats they should at least make sure that their reservation systems meet customer requirements whenever possible.

As far as TPE are concerned, the trains are reversible, so it is difficult to ascertain which way round the set will be. Plus a350 may be substituted by a 185 which has differing layouts, so TPE cannot offer a seat selection, whereas the likes of FGW, MML, VT and EC all have standard layout trains with the first class at the london end, so they can offer this option. Even then there are still a few differences in layout between a 225 and EC125 and doesnt always work!

a fault of privatisation is the differing companies favour different seating, layouts, colour schemes, even trains. The standardisation enjoyed in intercity days having long been lost!

 

[westv]

If staff are choosing not to ask for ID verification, that is down to the individual guard, however take it from a trained and operational guard that if you read the small print you are required to show supporting ID documentation which you have confirmed on your booking. So yes it is standard practice.

I was referring to the standard practice of the trains I travel on and , yes, I know what the T&Cs say.
The original point I was referring to was the guard who asked the OP to sit only in their reserved seat. Something the guard who asked for my ID also announced so I suggested it might be the same person.

 

[Starmill]

What if the guard tells you you must move to your reserved seat but the reason you're not sat there is because someone else is? There were seats elsewhere and you thought it silly to makw the fuss. Is the guard then going to create all that exta work for themselves, and to no discernable benefit?

 

[Ianigsy]

Or equally, when your reserved seat turns out to be a priority seat which you don't particularly need but somebody else might (this has happened to me, but I can't remember which stock it was on).