Yorkshire Hub

[edwin_m]

I fear not. If the new lines are to plough through the Hilton, they'll also be going through the new entrance.

You can see on the 3D render and the plans that the river emerges from under the railway to the west of the HS2 platforms. The southern entrance is above the river and the new elevated concourse looks to be to the east of the existing platform bridge, probably pretty much to the south of the existing concourse. The HS2 platforms meet the existing station just above Neville Street, so they may miss the Hilton but I doubt it would survive in its present form. Its hardly an architectural jewel though!

So quite a lot of newish station is going to have a relatively short life - about 30 years for the platform bridge but only 15 or so for the southern entrance. However it does mean the existing access can probably be kept in use while the new concourse is built.

 

[Iskra]

I would be right annoyed if I came from Bradford, the UKs 7th largest city and the one place in Yorkshire that needs some infrastructure development.

Don't be daft, its got twice as many stations as Leeds

(But, yes you're right)

 

[yorksrob]

You can see on the 3D render and the plans that the river emerges from under the railway to the west of the HS2 platforms. The southern entrance is above the river and the new elevated concourse looks to be to the east of the existing platform bridge, probably pretty much to the south of the existing concourse. The HS2 platforms meet the existing station just above Neville Street, so they may miss the Hilton but I doubt it would survive in its present form. Its hardly an architectural jewel though!

So quite a lot of newish station is going to have a relatively short life - about 30 years for the platform bridge but only 15 or so for the southern entrance. However it does mean the existing access can probably be kept in use while the new concourse is built.

Ah, just seen it on the telly. Didn't realise it was coming in at a right angle.

 

[tbtc]

This certainly looks better for Leeds, though i guess there's a trade off... is it worth a million pounds to bring the HS2 station a hundred metres closer to the "current" platforms?

Two million pounds per hundred metres (of walk on a travellator saved)? Where do you draw the line? People accept long walks at airports, HS2 trains will be 400m long, but what price are you putting on saving a minute's walk once the train arrives in Leeds? Dunno.

Is civic pride about keeping everything under one roof worth the cost of dozens of miles of light rail (as a Plan B)? Probably for the Great And Good of Leeds, but do they represent the majority?

Sheffield is getting a Hub station, where HS2 will connect with four conventional rail platforms, two Supertram platforms, a bus/coach station with maybe a dozen stances, convenient for the motorway and our main shopping district. (and thousands of parking places).. all within a couple of minutes walk.

Okay, Sheffield 's station will be at Meadowhall rather than at Midland (or the nonsense of Victoria ), but it'll bring lots of transport together in one place (public and private). Our topography means its not worth the expense / delay of running longer distance services through Sheffield city centre, but I can accept that.

Just Build It!

 

[RichmondCommu]

At least a plan that makes sense - having a station outside the centre of the city and away from the main connection hubs makes no sense.

Well exactly, the Germans and the French get this but we've taken rather too long to cotton on.

 

[Bantamzen]

This certainly looks better for Leeds, though i guess there's a trade off... is it worth a million pounds to bring the HS2 station a hundred metres closer to the "current" platforms?

Two million pounds per hundred metres (of walk on a travellator saved)? Where do you draw the line? People accept long walks at airports, HS2 trains will be 400m long, but what price are you putting on saving a minute's walk once the train arrives in Leeds? Dunno.

Is civic pride about keeping everything under one roof worth the cost of dozens of miles of light rail (as a Plan B)? Probably for the Great And Good of Leeds, but do they represent the majority?

Whilst people accept longer walks at airports, you also have to remember that people have much longer at said buildings to make connections (with the exception of those people who always leave getting to the airport until the last minute of course!). In reality the closest any passenger would be arriving at the proposed New Line station would be at least 400m from the nearest platform at Leeds City. So someone unfortunate enough to be at the very back would have 800m to go to just to get to platform 16, and if their connecting service is on 1 then it's a very long walk. OK if you have 20+ minutes to make the connection, but if you are delayed and have only 10 minutes or less to get across for a late evening connection (for example), then those 400 metres less will be gratefully received.

So is it worth the extra cost, yes I believe so. Let's face it, the cost of the project is huge so you may as well get it right if at all possible.

 

[edwin_m]

Well exactly, the Germans and the French get this but we've taken rather too long to cotton on.

Kassel is an example of a German city where the high speed station is in the suburbs because it isn't a big enough place to justify a HS service branching into the centre or the extensive tunnelling needed to put the city centre on the high speed line. It does however have excellent tram links to the centre - like most German cities the urban transport puts Britain to shame and that's one reason out-of-town stations are more difficult in the UK.

The French TGV lines have numerous "gares des bettraves", basically in the middle of nowhere. I don't know how good their public transport access is but I suspect pretty poor.

 

[bradders1983]

Definitely a chord for the Barnsley line - it's one of the SCRIF plans - ideally the chord will give a direct Barnsley-Rotherham connection, but ultimately there's a long way to go yet

Is there that much of a market for a direct connection between the two? Given the four connections an hour to Barnsley available at Meadowhall, is it really a big issue?

OK fair enough there are only two connections an hour in the opposite direction....

 

[HowardGWR]

Don't be daft, its got twice as many stations as Leeds

(But, yes you're right)

Could not CC trains come from HS2 in the Hunslet area near New Craven Gate onto existing tracks and call at Leeds (reverse) and forward to Bradford? I haven't read @Chris125's link to the interim report, (will do) but perhaps that was dealt with there?

 

[D6975]

Through trains heading north and east would be catered for by a new line diverging from the main HS2 route and looping into the existing station from the south-west.

This sounds like the connection will be very near to Leeds. I would have thought they might have considered a chord onto the ECML where HS2 crosses it between Donny and Wakefield. This would give Wakefield a HS service as well as making the connection away from built up areas.

 

[HowardGWR]

The pros and cons of this are addressed in the interim report as Option 1.

I have read this now and I don't see that he deals with through HS2 services to Bradford at all in that interim report, nor the new final one. See my earlier post and that from @D6975. Apologies if I missed the sentence or diagram applicable.

 

[Altnabreac]

I have read this now and I don't see that he deals with through HS2 services to Bradford at all in that interim report, nor the new final one. See my earlier post and that from @D6975. Apologies if I missed the sentence or diagram applicable.

I agree that it is not at all clear in the report what exactly the Classic Compatible connection will be but it is clear that some sort of connection is proposed. Here are the relevant passages:

4. that it should allow for through trains to enhance both the Northern Powerhouse rail plans as well as local services to the rest of the region

Can facilitate Northern Powerhouse rail services to run through the existing station via a connection from HS2 to the existing rail corridor into the west side of the station.

4. The station and its approaches should allow for through trains to enhance local services to the rest of the city region. This should include a connection between HS2 and the existing network, to enable some classic compatible HS2 trains to run through the existing station to and from York and beyond. This combined with the connection between HS2 and the East Coast Main Line would deliver substantial benefits for York Central, one of the most significant Northern Powerhouse projects.

It will enable future increases in capacity for city region services and Northern Powerhouse rail, and provide the potential for a connection the enable some HS2 services to run through Leeds station.

Now a nice diagram and some suggested services would have made this a lot clearer but it seems that what is intended is some sort of chord in the Woodlesford - Hunslet area allowing classic compatible services to leave HS2 and access the existing Leeds station from the south west via the Hallam line.

Once you have done that you are free to run through Classic Compatible services from Leeds to anywhere with electrified track and 200m platforms.

A shortlist might include:

• Bradford Forster Square
• Skipton
• Harrogate (if electrified)
• Hull (if electrified)
• Middlesborough / Sunderland (if electrified)
• Newcastle and Edinburgh

Now reversing and heading back out the Airedale line would cross the western throat and so presumably reduce capacity. Thus any Bradford / Skipton / Harrogate services might be limited to a single token morning peak service.

Equally Hull - London via Leeds is quite circuitous and I'd think a routing via Doncaster and a route onto HS2 south of Meadowhall (Killamarsh?) would be much better if you wanted to run HS2 services to Hull.

So my expectation would be that the classic compatible chord would mainly be utilised by services roughly equivalent to the current Birmingham - Newcastle and Scotland cross country services but allowing them to continue to serve Leeds instead of having to join HS2 at Church Fenton.

Newcastle - London services would probably not go via Leeds but instead join HS2 at Church Fenton as previously planned.

 

[edwin_m]

There's also the possibility of an east-west HS3 service. If this uses the HS2 route to get to Leeds then it could continue to Hull or York and Newcastle.

 

[bradders1983]

There's also the possibility of an east-west HS3 service. If this uses the HS2 route to get to Leeds then it could continue to Hull or York and Newcastle.

I thought that was the plan anyway? HS1 trains come off the fast lines to trundle through Kent dont they, or did I make that up?

 

[HowardGWR]

I agree that it is not at all clear in the report what exactly the Classic Compatible connection will be but it is clear that some sort of connection is proposed. Here are the relevant passages:
....................

You are too kind, for my 'speed read' read 'insufficiently read'!

Actually he could have made it clearer on his diagram; it would have been so simple to do.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There's also the possibility of an east-west HS3 service. If this uses the HS2 route to get to Leeds then it could continue to Hull or York and Newcastle.

How does that look, I can't see how east-west HS3 from Manchester (if you meant that) uses HS2, unless that link must go via Sheffield - is that what you meant?

If east-west HS3 does that, perhaps Victoria was a better location there after all, although Victoria is hardly central. Sheffeld needs to think its office location policy, it seems to me. The old city, what's left of it, does not seem to me to be a big draw for HS services, as others have pointed out.

 

[Altnabreac]

I thought that was the plan anyway? HS1 trains come off the fast lines to trundle through Kent dont they, or did I make that up?

The details are not yet decided. It's worth looking at the illustrative options map that was circulated at the same time as some of the Northern Powerhouse discussions:

For the Leeds to Manchester corridor there are basically 3 options:

Option 3
A completely new high speed line from Manchester - Leeds directly.

Option 8
An upgrade to the existing Manchester - Leeds line.

Option 2
A completely new high speed line from Manchester to HS2 between Sheffield and Leeds that then uses HS2 into Leeds.

What this link allows is for Option 2 to be built from Manchester to connect to HS2 somewhere near Barnsley and then leaving HS2 in the Hunslet area and running through Leeds station to provide direct high speed services from Manchester to Hull, York and Newcastle.

This is obviously much more flexible and useful than only being able to run end to end Manchester - Leeds services on HS3.

It also means the new Leeds HS station does not need additional platforms for Manchester services as they will use the existing station.

However if Options 3 or 8 are chosen then this chord would not effect HS3 services at all as they would still run through the existing station but would not have any need to join HS2.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You are too kind, for my 'speed read' read 'insufficiently read'!

Actually he could have made it clearer on his diagram; it would have been so simple to do.

No problem

How does that look, I can't see how east-west HS3 from Manchester (if you meant that) uses HS2, unless that link must go via Sheffield - is that what you meant?

If east-west HS3 does that, perhaps Victoria was a better location there after all, although Victoria is hardly central. Sheffeld needs to think its office location policy, it seems to me. The old city, what's left of it, does not seem to me to be a big draw for HS services, as others have pointed out.

Hopefully the diagram above makes it a little clearer. If Option 2 were chosen Manchester - Leeds services would utilise HS2 south of Leeds but not travel via Sheffield.

The illustration above perhaps suggests Option 2 serving Meadowhall for Manchester - Sheffield services. My expectation would be that actually Sheffield Victoria might be more likely. An HS3 Manchester - Leeds route passing north of Stocksbridge would connect relatively easily to the freight line at Deepcar and run into Sheffield Victoria.

You could then run through Sheffield and rejoin HS2 from near Killamarsh to Toton and potentially provide something like a Manchester - Sheffield - East Midlands - Leicester service.

 

[lejog]

Once you have done that you are free to run through Classic Compatible services from Leeds to anywhere with electrified track and 200m platforms.

A shortlist might include:

• Bradford Forster Square
• Skipton
• Harrogate (if electrified)
• Hull (if electrified)
• Middlesborough / Sunderland (if electrified)
• Newcastle and Edinburgh

The inner crayonista in me would like to point out that D6975's idea of a connection to the ECML south of Wakefield would allow services to run to:

• Wakefield
• Huddersfield through a new link through literally a couple of fields north of Morley
• Calder Valley Line through the reinstated Wortley curve
• Forster Sq, Skipton and Harrogate through a new curve around the Wortley roundabout
• York,Hull,Newcastle etc through Leeds station

with absolutely no movements across the throat at Leeds.

Yes I know the report specifies running through Leeds, but I hope that there is a substantial budget to improve capacity at Leeds - we are currently being told that 3 or 4 new services from Harrogate/Calder Valley lines due in the next franchise are dependent on East Leeds Parkway (or at least a turning point east of Leeds) being built.

 

[Altnabreac]

The inner crayonista in me would like to point out that D6975's idea of a connection to the ECML south of Wakefield would allow services to run to:

• Wakefield
• Huddersfield through a new link through literally a couple of fields north of Morley
• Calder Valley Line through the reinstated Wortley curve
• Forster Sq, Skipton and Harrogate through a new curve around the Wortley roundabout
• York,Hull,Newcastle etc through Leeds station

with absolutely no movements across the throat at Leeds.

Yes I know the report specifies running through Leeds, but I hope that there is a substantial budget to improve capacity at Leeds - we are currently being told that 3 or 4 new services from Harrogate/Calder Valley lines due in the next franchise are dependent on East Leeds Parkway (or at least a turning point east of Leeds) being built.

Agreed. However the downside is a journey time penalty compared to diverging closer to Leeds.

The question then is how much benefit there is from potential services to Wakefield, Huddersfield, Calder Valley etc versus the disbenefit for slower journey times to Leeds, Newcastle etc.

My guess is the economic case will show that the closer to Leeds the better for a connection. Of course that doesn't prevent a second connection serving Wakefield.

 

[edwin_m]

I thought that was the plan anyway? HS1 trains come off the fast lines to trundle through Kent dont they, or did I make that up?

Until recently HS2 has focused on longer-distance trains although various official bodies have realised that there is scope to use it for other trains, at least north of Birmingham where there would otherwise be spare capacity. Nobody has any real idea yet what this might look like, as illustrated by preceding posts.

 

[lejog]

Agreed. However the downside is a journey time penalty compared to diverging closer to Leeds.

The question then is how much benefit there is from potential services to Wakefield, Huddersfield, Calder Valley etc versus the disbenefit for slower journey times to Leeds, Newcastle etc.

My guess is the economic case will show that the closer to Leeds the better for a connection. Of course that doesn't prevent a second connection serving Wakefield.

On reflection, if there is the possibility of the funding for much needed but expensive capacity improvements for Leeds Station to be allocated to the HS2 budget, I'm all for the plan.

 

[Haydn1971]

Is there that much of a market for a direct connection between the two?

Two large towns, 85k in Barnsley, 109k in Rotherham, then onwards to 77k Doncaster, plus places along the way like Wombwell, Hoyland, Chapeltown, Parkgate, Swinton - I'd suggest that there's as great a demand for a direct train as on say the Penistone line.

 

[bradders1983]

Two large towns, 85k in Barnsley, 109k in Rotherham, then onwards to 77k Doncaster, plus places along the way like Wombwell, Hoyland, Chapeltown, Parkgate, Swinton - I'd suggest that there's as great a demand for a direct train as on say the Penistone line.

I dunno, Sheffield is the centre of the South Yorkshire universe really.

 

[CdBrux]

The link from HS2 to allow trains to enter the existing Leeds station is something, as the quotes mentioned by Altnabreac show, to serve NPR (new name of 'HS3'), not HS2. So I would think the location of these will be determined by the proposed NPR enhancements to east / west travel, in particular how they see best to cross the pennines (new, upgrade..) and if this is a new build does it go on a direct Manchester -> Leeds axis, which may nmot use any HS2 infrastructure, or does it try also to serve Sheffield, so joining HS2 eastern leg somewhere between Sheffield & Leeds. From the TfN report published a coupe of days ago then this will be at least a year until it becomes clearer.

On top of this as such a link would be for NPR purposes and not at all for HS2 then I would think the most HS2 would do is to make passive provision. I doubt they would want any more on their budget, it would be for TfN to pay according to their wishes.

EDIT: I now see there were more posts than I had first seen and Altnabreac has in their post of yesterday with the TfN diagram in explained this better!

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

I imagine the Sheffield station would be best in the centre. Imagine if the Manchester one was to be in Trafford Centre as it's slightly closer to Wigan... it wouldn't make sense to miss out on the huge economic benefit for the city centre just to save a few minutes for people going further afield, at the expense of the majority going to the city. So Meadowhall is not ideal in my mind, despite the perfect interchange which is great, but too many Sheffield travellers would be put of due to changes needed and just use the current train, especially for place like Nottingham.

 

[bradders1983]

I imagine the Sheffield station would be best in the centre. Imagine if the Manchester one was to be in Trafford Centre as it's slightly closer to Wigan... it wouldn't make sense to miss out on the huge economic benefit for the city centre just to save a few minutes for people going further afield, at the expense of the majority going to the city. So Meadowhall is not ideal in my mind, despite the perfect interchange which is great, but too many Sheffield travellers would be put of due to changes needed and just use the current train, especially for place like Nottingham.

Manchester is flat, Leeds is flat, Sheffield isnt. Its a quirk of geography that means the Sheffield station cant really be in the centre.

 

[CdBrux]

Wigan (and Warrington) will have HS2 CC trains anyway, so I don't see that as a valid comparison. The question for Sheffield City Region is where the station is sited to the best benefit of all the region, not just one part of it, and for a sensible construction cost and for a sensible link into other transport modes. I suspect all options have significant pros & cons which makes it much harder to find a solution on which the majority can align.

 

[Altnabreac]

The link from HS2 to allow trains to enter the existing Leeds station is something, as the quotes mentioned by Altnabreac show, to serve NPR (new name of 'HS3'), not HS2. So I would think the location of these will be determined by the proposed NPR enhancements to east / west travel, in particular how they see best to cross the pennines (new, upgrade..) and if this is a new build does it go on a direct Manchester -> Leeds axis, which may nmot use any HS2 infrastructure, or does it try also to serve Sheffield, so joining HS2 eastern leg somewhere between Sheffield & Leeds. From the TfN report published a coupe of days ago then this will be at least a year until it becomes clearer.

On top of this as such a link would be for NPR purposes and not at all for HS2 then I would think the most HS2 would do is to make passive provision. I doubt they would want any more on their budget, it would be for TfN to pay according to their wishes.

EDIT: I now see there were more posts than I had first seen and Altnabreac has in their post of yesterday with the TfN diagram in explained this better!

Although I still think a link near Hunslet for Classic Compatible trains to run through Leeds station would be useful to allow Newcastle - Birmingham High Speed trains call at Leeds even if HS3 chose one of the options that did not use HS2 infrastructure.

On that basis I hope it goes ahead whatever option is ultimately chosen for HS3.

 

[edwin_m]

Manchester is flat, Leeds is flat, Sheffield isnt. Its a quirk of geography that means the Sheffield station cant really be in the centre.

The other difference is that Sheffield has a convenient out-of-town public transport node at Meadowhall, with frequent classic rail connections to the city centre and to all major surrounding centres as well as good park and ride potential. Nearly every train service calling at Sheffield also calls at Meadowhall (or passes through and could call). There is no equivalent location around Manchester or Leeds, nor around Derby/Nottingham where one needs creating from scratch at Toton.

 

[deltic08]

Yes I know the report specifies running through Leeds, but I hope that there is a substantial budget to improve capacity at Leeds - we are currently being told that 3 or 4 new services from Harrogate/Calder Valley lines due in the next franchise are dependent on East Leeds Parkway (or at least a turning point east of Leeds) being built.

I keep pressing Leeds City Council and West Yorkshire Metro to reinstate 2 miles of the Cross Gates-Wetherby line for a turnback facility instead of Micklefield. 7,000 houses are being built either side of the trackbed in the Scholes area and a rail connection here would be invaluable as most buyers would work in the Leeds or even Bradford areas. There would be room for park and ride adjacent to the A64 also instead of Micklefield but I just get stonewalled.

 

[Pinza-C55]

Once you have done that you are free to run through Classic Compatible services from Leeds to anywhere with electrified track and 200m platforms.

A shortlist might include:

• Bradford Forster Square
• Skipton
• Harrogate (if electrified)
• Hull (if electrified)
• Middlesborough / Sunderland (if electrified)
• Newcastle and Edinburgh

How would you go about electrifying Sunderland given that it already has Metro 1500 volt DC OHLE ?