york through tracks

[YorkshireBear]

When and why were the through tracks at york removed? just seen old pictures with them in?

 

[theblackwatch]

It was part of the remodelling/rationalising/electrification which took place in the late 1980s.

 

[Greenback]

IIRC theyw ere removed at the time of electrification in the 1980's. I imagien that they were no longer needed for loco release or carriage attachment purposes.

 

[NightatLaira]

Ironically with the reinstatement of the 'proper' Flying Scotsman service under Eureka - at least one 'through' would be advantageous nowadays...

There was a thread on here not so long ago considering the prospect of using the electrified 'York Avoider' for the Flying Scotsman, but due to the non-existence of 'flyovers' in the York area using the avoider actually closes more paths than running a non-stop train through the station's through platforms would... I think the only electric trains to use it now are the twice daily Freightliner class 86s with intermodals, and the occasional parcels Class 321 EMU.


I have long since been of the opinion that there is the space to put an extra platform (through or bay) in between platfroms 3 and 5 at York. The capacity would be welcomed, access could be from the existing footbridge and subway, and safety could be implemented by building a 'glass wall' backing onto whichever side was facing the opposing track.

 

[YorkshireBear]

86s run to york?

 

[NightatLaira]

Twice daily I believe - one of the GEN experts will give you the times. Normally most electric intermodals go via the WCML - but this one comes from Tyneside and is routed via the ECML and North London Line, then GEML to Harwich IIRC.

You'll sometimes see Freightliner 86s stabled just south of York at Dringhouses. They don't haul coal trains!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Occasionally they use 90s as well - normally 'Verchtingboten' or whatever that Dutch liveried one is called - for some reason they're normally stabled in the station on platforms 1, 6 or 7.

 

[43167]

Never ever seen FL 86's hauling freight on the ECML, the only time is happens is when the WCML is shut. The only times ive seen the Liner 86's at York is when one is stable in platform 1 for de-icing the OHEL's.

The only parcels EMU's are 325's.

And you mean Holgate sidings, Dringhouse's Yard closed years ago.

 

[Freightmaster]

Twice daily I believe - one of the GEN experts will give you the times. Normally most electric intermodals go via the WCML - but this one comes from Tyneside and is routed via the ECML and North London Line, then GEML to Harwich IIRC...

So there are twice daily 86-hauled intermodals from 'Tyneside' to Harwich via York, eh...?

...sounds like I need to update my timetables with these new workings ASAP;
do you have a photo of one of these twice daily trains by any chance?

MARK

 

[Aictos]

Twice daily I believe - one of the GEN experts will give you the times. Normally most electric intermodals go via the WCML - but this one comes from Tyneside and is routed via the ECML and North London Line, then GEML to Harwich IIRC.

You sure about this? I ask because the only electric freight between Doncaster and Finsbury Park is the 92 hauled steel ingots service as far as I know.

I've never heard of anything else heading south, certainly not 86s, 87s or 90s except diverted sleeper services of course.

Practically all workings tend to be 66 hauled, 60 hauled if you're lucky or if you're really really lucky then 37 hauled.

 

[wensley]

86s DEFINITELY DO NOT work an intermodal ex-Tyneside. The only FL intermodal is 4L79 15xx Wilton - Felixtowe which is 66 hauled.

 

[sprinterguy]

Twice daily I believe - one of the GEN experts will give you the times. Normally most electric intermodals go via the WCML - but this one comes from Tyneside and is routed via the ECML and North London Line, then GEML to Harwich IIRC.

You'll sometimes see Freightliner 86s stabled just south of York at Dringhouses. They don't haul coal trains!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Occasionally they use 90s as well - normally 'Verchtingboten' or whatever that Dutch liveried one is called - for some reason they're normally stabled in the station on platforms 1, 6 or 7.

That’ll be 90028, formerly “Vrachtverbinding”: You’re going back a while there, it hasn’t been in SNCB “Sybic” livery since 2003! The only locos I’ve ever seen stabled in the south end bays at York are the 86s used for ice breaking duties.

As far as I’m aware, any container traffic out of Tyne Dock is in the hands of DB Schenker, and uses class 66s. GBRf and Freightliner operate MGR trains of imported coal out of there. There is/was a car transporter train that operated out of Tyne Dock (Bathgate bound? I can’t remember) that a few years ago passed over to class 92 haulage at Tyne Yard, but Freightliner electrics on the northern ECML are a rarity, although singular Freightliner 86s do appear from time to time on route learning duties, and have been used as ice breakers in the past before the Network Rail 86/9s were available.

 

[SteveP29]

IIRC they were removed at the time of electrification in the 1980's. I imagine that they were no longer needed for loco release or carriage attachment purposes.

Is that also the reasons why the centre line between platforms 2 and 3 at Newcastle were removed too?

Always gets me when I watch series 2 of Auf Wiedersehen Pet when Barry arrives in Newcastle ans the third line is there (and also having seen trains pass through on that middle line)

 

[AlterEgo]

Why remove track though, when there may be possible unforeseen future uses?

 

[PaulLothian]

There is/was a car transporter train that operated out of Tyne Dock (Bathgate bound? I can’t remember) that a few years ago passed over to class 92 haulage at Tyne Yard,

Not going to Bathgate anyway, as the car unloading facility there seems to be now under the Bathgate train stabling facility. I believe the east-facing junction installed at Boghall (a bit to the east) which goes nowhere at present is to allow for reinstatement of the facility on a new site.

 

[Clip]

Why remove track though, when there may be possible unforeseen future uses?

Not really noticing what is in place there now maybe its the infrastructure to holding the OHLE.. I have no idea but will try and remember as ill pass there next week

 

[142094]

Think one of the other reasons for the removal of the through line at York was to make room for the footbridge support. Bit of a job to reinstate it. Also at Newcastle, the platforms were reconstructed so again would involve a lot of work to put back something that isn't really needed at present.

 

[sprinterguy]

Is that also the reasons why the centre line between platforms 2 and 3 at Newcastle were removed too?

Always gets me when I watch series 2 of Auf Wiedersehen Pet when Barry arrives in Newcastle ans the third line is there (and also having seen trains pass through on that middle line)

Yeah the centre road at Newcastle was also removed in the track rationalisation prior to electrification. Removing redundant loops such as those at Newcastle and York was done to give space for catenary posts and also allows the realignment of the platform roads to give a smoother approach (and as 142094 says, to provide space for the footbridge support at York).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not going to Bathgate anyway, as the car unloading facility there seems to be now under the Bathgate train stabling facility. I believe the east-facing junction installed at Boghall (a bit to the east) which goes nowhere at present is to allow for reinstatement of the facility on a new site.

Ah, fair enough. This was five or six years ago now, so the working may well have been terminated by this point. The 92 used to be stabled at the south end of the reception sidings in Tyne Yard: I don’t know whether this suggested it had arrived from the north or whether it was in readiness for it to take a train forwards further south.

 

[flymo]

I remember the centre roads at Newcastle being removed and the old platforms 8, 9 & 10 (now 2, 3 & 4) being straightened (well the eastern ends) and the track slewed to allow clearance for the 26M carriages of the trains that were to have operated through the Channel Tunnel. The edge of the current platform 2 (the old platform 8) was moved up to about 4 feet towards the current platform 3 (the old platform 9) with the track being slewed before the platform was extended. (Well I guess it had to be otherwise there would have been a few damaged trains). Special stop boards were used to stop trains in the appropriate place.
I don't doubt that rationalisation would have been a factor, but it certainly wasn't just to make the approach smoother.

 

[DarloRich]

Ironically with the reinstatement of the 'proper' Flying Scotsman service under Eureka - at least one 'through' would be advantageous nowadays...

There was a thread on here not so long ago considering the prospect of using the electrified 'York Avoider' for the Flying Scotsman, but due to the non-existence of 'flyovers' in the York area using the avoider actually closes more paths than running a non-stop train through the station's through platforms would... I think the only electric trains to use it now are the twice daily Freightliner class 86s with intermodals, and the occasional parcels Class 321 EMU.


I have long since been of the opinion that there is the space to put an extra platform (through or bay) in between platfroms 3 and 5 at York. The capacity would be welcomed, access could be from the existing footbridge and subway, and safety could be implemented by building a 'glass wall' backing onto whichever side was facing the opposing track.

There is an occasional route leaner form Mossend (I beleive - you will find the evedence on my flickr) but not an 86 combo frieghtliner on a daily basis

Only FL liner train i can think of is the Wilton service mentioned above and that has been 66 hauled for what seems like ever now!

Also think all the mail trians go via WCML. I see one every evening while waiting for the train at Bletchley

As for the through roads they cant go in back becuase the bridge support is right in the middle of where the road would go!

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

Wilton's on Teesside anyway, and the nearest wires are at Darlo...

As to an extra through platform at York, 7&8 could be joined together, with a new Harrogate bay in the space next to it. Footbridge and subway access to 9 and the extended7/8 would need to be provided of course...

 

[route101]

Not going to Bathgate anyway, as the car unloading facility there seems to be now under the Bathgate train stabling facility. I believe the east-facing junction installed at Boghall (a bit to the east) which goes nowhere at present is to allow for reinstatement of the facility on a new site.

Is that Junction visable from the M8 ? Next to the Grass Pyrimids

 

[Bald Rick]

Why remove track though, when there may be possible unforeseen future uses?

Yes indeed, why not make a resignalling, remodelling and electrification scheme more complex and expensive when there may be (.. pauses to gaze at crystal ball..) possible unforseen future uses? Alternatively, why not save the taxpayer some cash when there is absolutely definitely no foreseen use for these lines at the time it was planned 25 years ago?

 

[Anvil1984]

Wilton's on Teesside anyway, and the nearest wires are at Darlo...

As to an extra through platform at York, 7&8 could be joined together, with a new Harrogate bay in the space next to it. Footbridge and subway access to 9 and the extended7/8 would need to be provided of course...

Hmm not too mad on that suggestion, would mean quite a narrow platform for 6 and 8, which is ok now for 2 terminating platforms but for a through platform may be a nightmare

 

[Freightmaster]

86s DEFINITELY DO NOT work an intermodal ex-Tyneside...

What about the "twice daily" 86-hauled service refered to above?

Are you saying that was 'Walter Mitty style' platform end gibber? I'm shocked!


Regarding car traffic from Tyne Dock - until 2006 there used to
be a weekly block train of Nissan Micras to Dollands Moor which
was 92-hauled from Tyne yard.


MARK

 

[wensley]

What about the "twice daily" 86-hauled service refered to above?

Are you saying that was 'Walter Mitty style' platform end gibber? I'm shocked!

MARK

I think I may have been
Just fairly sure that 86s on intermodal wouldn't have escaped my notice when I seem to practically live at Northallerton station and I've never heard so much as a whisper....all the chatter about the route learners for FL from Mossend - York proves how unusual it is to get AC electrics 'up here'!!

 

[sidmouth]

I've used the York avoider last year hauled by a cl.90 northbound on a day out with UK Railtours to Berwick. So it could be used by the Flying Scotsman, but then the train would end up on the slows towards Thirsk.

 

[PinzaC55]

I remember the centre roads at Newcastle being removed and the old platforms 8, 9 & 10 (now 2, 3 & 4) being straightened (well the eastern ends) and the track slewed to allow clearance for the 26M carriages of the trains that were to have operated through the Channel Tunnel. The edge of the current platform 2 (the old platform 8) was moved up to about 4 feet towards the current platform 3 (the old platform 9) with the track being slewed before the platform was extended. (Well I guess it had to be otherwise there would have been a few damaged trains). Special stop boards were used to stop trains in the appropriate place.
I don't doubt that rationalisation would have been a factor, but it certainly wasn't just to make the approach smoother.

Just to be pedantic there was only actually one "centre road" at Newcastle as the other was removed in about 1970 possibly due to clearance problems. Also the remaining line wasn't a "centre road" in the conventional sense as it was only used for stabling/run round and no through/non stop trains used it.

 

[DarloRich]

Wilton's on Teesside anyway, and the nearest wires are at Darlo...

As to an extra through platform at York, 7&8 could be joined together, with a new Harrogate bay in the space next to it. Footbridge and subway access to 9 and the extended7/8 would need to be provided of course...

Most people from other parts of the country thin kthat we are all Geordies up norf anyway. I dont think they know about Teesside!

It could stop on the goods loop at Darlo and have a 37 or 47 (perhaps a pair for saftey - dont want the Eaglescliffe line blocked by a failure!) back down and haul the train through to Wilton! You could attach a diesel at York and go via Yarm but that would be no fun! WHY Frieghtliner dont do this is beyond me!

 

[ChrisCooper]

Through roads are usually a waste these days anyway. They rarely provide faster speeds for none stop trains (the only times they do is when stopping trains have to slow for the points to access the platform roads) and often provide lower speeds than can be achieved by removing them and realighning the remaining lines. At somewhere like York or Newcaster trains are restricted in top speed by the curves and junctions near the stations anyway. The only advantages to through roads is where it is on a high speed line and none stop trains use the through lines to overtake stopping services, or if the station has limited platforms and long dwell times (particularly terminating services).

 

[wensley]

I've used the York avoider last year hauled by a cl.90 northbound on a day out with UK Railtours to Berwick. So it could be used by the Flying Scotsman, but then the train would end up on the slows towards Thirsk.

It is possible, however, the EC drivers do not, at present have the neccessary route knowledge for the road and the speed limit is low, at one point 20mph on the "Down" and maximum of 35 on either "Up" or "Down". At present the signalling/track layout at Skelton Bridge Jnc does not make it easy for freight to pass from the "Down" slow onto the "Down" fast. However, it would be possible for the train to cross onto the fast at Tollerton Jnc. Between York and Tollerton the slow line is cleared for 70mph running, 20 mph at Tollerton over the points. The "Up" is cleared for 125mph running so, as has already been said, it would be easier to path the train through platform 5, for example, at 30mph instead of the problems of using the avoider.

A possible solution, which may be difficult, which is a mid-measure and cheaper than re-modelling York Station for a through road may be the installation of new signalling and remodeling Skelton Bridge Jnc with a crossover to get trains directly out onto the "Down" fast from the slow.