York main NB/SB platforms

[dodecahedron67]

Does anyone know why P5 is used as the main southbound over P3, and why P9 is used as the main northbound over P5?

 

[30907]

I thought both 3 and 5 were used for southbound regularly? 5 (and 9) for LNER provides a useful connection with their "stoppers" using 6, and having both is useful when trains arrive close together from the North.
The other issue is trains to/from Scarborough (in the days when they all ran through!) which require 3/5.

 

[zwk500]

Another factor in the platform allocations is the long junction margin and platform reoccupation times for some moves make it better to use alternative platforms than path trains out. It also depends what happens south of York, as the layout changes from the 4-track paired by destination to 2-track either side of the station.

 

[sjm77]

IMHO it is normally;
NB 5 & 9
SB 3 & 5
Scarborough also use 4 but then 3 is also needed to be accesible either in or out!

 

[JonathanH]

Part of the issue as well is that dwell times and the proximity of departures on the Newcastle to York corridor can mean that both platforms 3 and 5 southbound, and 9 and 10 or 11 northbound are in use at very similar times for departures. This is a relatively recent innovation - wasn't the track layout to the South changed to make this easier?

For example, the 1634 to Kings Cross leaves from platform 3 having arrived at 1631. The 1643 to Bristol arrives in platform 5 at 1636. The Bristol train couldn't be timed to reoccupy platform 3 that close behind.

 

[yorkie]

Does anyone know why P5 is used as the main southbound over P3, and why P9 is used as the main northbound over P5?

There is no "main" platform in either direction

I thought both 3 and 5 were used for southbound regularly? 5 (and 9) for LNER provides a useful connection with their "stoppers" using 6, and having both is useful when trains arrive close together from the North.
The other issue is trains to/from Scarborough (in the days when they all ran through!) which require 3/5.

Is the right answer

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Oct 2022 ==

Part of the issue as well is that dwell times and the proximity of departures on the Newcastle to York corridor can mean that both platforms 3 and 5 southbound, and 9 and 10 or 11 northbound are in use at very similar times for departures. This is a relatively recent innovation - wasn't the track layout to the South changed to make this easier?

Some remodelling took place several years ago; there used to be a single lead from the Leeds Lines into the higher numbered platforms.

 

[Watershed]

LNER specifically use platform 5 in preference to 3 on their Edinburgh <-> London "fasts", to allow an easy cross-platform connection to/from their York <-> London "stoppers".

Otherwise it's pretty much just a matter of using whatever platform is available at that time. As has been commented above, the York-Newcastle corridor is very busy in certain parts of the hour, with successive trains following each other on (near) minimum headway. This gives heavy, slow freight services the opportunity to run between Northallerton and Newcastle, and particularly between Tursdale Jn and Birtley Jn.

Northern's York-Leeds via Harrogate service is now half-hourly and cannot use just one platform (trains generally pass each other between Skelton Jn and the station). This has changed the platforming somewhat, as it occupies a through platform - generally 10 or 11 - for half an hour in most hours.

Another factor in platforming is the fact that when northbound trains are signalled into platform 11, the overlap for the platform starting signal extends over the single lead from platforms 10/11 to the north, thus preventing simultaneous northbound arrivals and departures at 11/10 respectively. This is not the case with arrivals into the other through platforms, due to the slightly different signal placement and layout.

There is, however, a "warner route" that can be used for northbound trains arriving into platform 11, which allows a shorter non-conflicting overlap, but subjects the train to approach control at the signal preceding the station. Trains intended to use this "warner route" are designated as using platform 11X, but there is a time penalty due to the approach control. Therefore platform 10 is used in preference to 11 in such cases.

The final factor is the layout to the south of the station, as platforms 10 and 11 can be accessed from the Leeds Lines without conflicting with southbound departures. There is a single lead shared by trains using platforms 6, 7 and 9 (as well as southbound departures from 10/11), meaning that simultaneous arrivals from the Normanton Lines and departures to the Leeds Lines are not possible for these platforms. Hence platform 5 can sometimes be used for northbound services, despite being on the southbound 'side' of the station.

York is a very busy station for the number of platforms it has; it could really do with the bay opposite to 8 being reinstated (so that Harrogate services don't block a through platform) as well as having some extra crossovers to avoid the bottleneck of the single lead at the south end of the station. The 1990s remodelling, whilst improving linespeeds, excessively rationalised the station in retrospect.

 

[swissrailpassion]

The old double bay for Harrogate was a very useful arrangement. I'm told the position of a new turnout to restore the lost bay would be very difficult due to other pointwork close by.
After electrification it was common to stand outside from both North and South whilst platforms became clear. The new arrangement for the Leeds lines has helped hugely.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Thanks all, the thing about LNER using P5 to have easy interchange with the stoppers is something I hadn’t clocked and was my main question. Hate getting off from Scotland or going back south with a big bag and having to cross the bridge as opposed to P3 which is right there

 

[yorkie]

Thanks all, the thing about LNER using P5 to have easy interchange with the stoppers is something I hadn’t clocked and was my main question. Hate getting off from Scotland or going back south with a big bag and having to cross the bridge as opposed to P3 which is right there

I've never known a train with such an interchange use P3 instead of P5.

However if you need to change platform islands, or simply exit the station, use one of the subways, not the bridge. There are fewer stairs for the subway and lifts are also available. The bridge also tends to be more crowded.

 

[zwk500]

I've never known a train with such an interchange use P3 instead of P5.

It is (or was, last time I looked) actually in the TPR rules that the connection at the top of the hour should be platformed in P5 and 6. All other services are left to planner discretion, I think.

 

[800001]

I've never known a train with such an interchange use P3 instead of P5.

However if you need to change platform islands, or simply exit the station, use one of the subways, not the bridge. There are fewer stairs for the subway and lifts are also available. The bridge also tends to be more crowded.

Happens frequently where the 1Exx that connects in to the 1Yxx uses platform 3.

On Saturdays at times certain ones are booked to use platform 3

 

[yorkie]

It would be useful if it ever does happen to me, as I'm not interchanging

 

[APT618S]

Another factor in platforming is the fact that when northbound trains are signalled into platform 11, the overlap for the platform starting signal extends over the single lead from platforms 10/11 to the north, thus preventing simultaneous northbound arrivals and departures at 11/10 respectively. This is not the case with arrivals into the other through platforms, due to the slightly different signal placement and layout.

It may be a coincidence but due to being held outside the station on more than one occasion I assumed that the overlap on P4 prevented a southbound train entering P3 when a train from Scarborough was entering P4. Is this not the case?

 

[Watershed]

It may be a coincidence but due to being held outside the station on more than one occasion I assumed that the overlap on P4 prevented a southbound train entering P3 when a train from Scarborough was entering P4. Is this not the case?

That's correct; there is a warner route for trains from Scarborough to platform 4, but even the reduced overlap conflicts with the route from the north into platform 3. That particular warner route essentially just exists to allow trains to enter platform 4 whilst there is a train stood in platform 3.

 

[800001]

It may be a coincidence but due to being held outside the station on more than one occasion I assumed that the overlap on P4 prevented a southbound train entering P3 when a train from Scarborough was entering P4. Is this not the case?

Same with platform 1 and 3, if a train is arriving or departing from platform 1, then a train arriving from the north can not enter platform 3.

Same if a train is arriving into 3 from north, then a train can not arrive/depart plat 1, due to short overlap.

 

[zwk500]

Same with platform 1 and 3, if a train is arriving or departing from platform 1, then a train arriving from the north can not enter platform 3.

Same if a train is arriving into 3 from north, then a train can not arrive/depart plat 1, due to short overlap.

Is there a particular reason why this overlap was left in the design? There looks to be plenty of room for an 80m+ overlap without even touching the car park, surely that's sufficient for 25mph, maybe with a warner route? Was it just assessed that traffic density would never be high enough that the capacity limitation would be a problem?

 

[CAF397]

IMHO it is normally;
NB 5 & 9
SB 3 & 5
Scarborough also use 4 but then 3 is also needed to be accesible either in or out!

5 can also be used to access Scarborough, if 3 is occupied.

 

[Watershed]

Is there a particular reason why this overlap was left in the design? There looks to be plenty of room for an 80m+ overlap without even touching the car park, surely that's sufficient for 25mph, maybe with a warner route? Was it just assessed that traffic density would never be high enough that the capacity limitation would be a problem?

I imagine it just wasn't considered enough of an issue to warrant the additional cost and complexity of adding a warner route into platform 3. It's quite an issue now, of course. The whole layout could do with a bit of a rethink frankly, although I imagine nothing will change until ETCS is introduced.

 

[Haywain]

There is, however, a "warner route"

What’s that then?

 

[zwk500]

What’s that then?

A route that uses a Restricted overlap (shorter than standard) to avoid locking out a route beyond the signal, but 'warns' the train through Approach control on the preceding signal leading to a slower approach speed so that the train can stop in the shorter distance. This has an associated time penalty, usually 30 or 60 seconds.

 

[Watershed]

What’s that then?

There's a reasonable definition here:

A warner route is a specific type of route provided at some signals, selected by the Signaller, where the full overlap of a signal may not be available for some reason.
...
When selected, the signal in rear will only clear once a timer on the berth track circuit has been satisfied. This is to ensure that the train is under control as a mitigation against the consequences of a signal passed at danger into the reduced overlap.

 

[Haywain]

A route that uses a Restricted overlap (shorter than standard) to avoid locking out a route beyond the signal, but 'warns' the train through Approach control on the preceding signal leading to a slower approach speed so that the train can stop in the shorter distance. This has an associated time penalty, usually 30 or 60 seconds.

There's a reasonable definition here:

Thanks both, not something I’d heard of before.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

It may have since changed, but wasn’t there also a particularly nasty overlap conflict between a northbound arrival into P5 and anything entering / exiting the Harrogate bay P8?

For many years the almost seemingly mandatory ‘scenic stop’ at Holgate Jn for northbound services was exacerbated by GNERs policy of not making last-minute replatformings; therefore trains waited for their booked platforms even during periods of disruption when an alternative might be available.

 

[zwk500]

It may have since changed, but wasn’t there also a particularly nasty overlap conflict between a northbound arrival into P5 and anything entering / exiting the Harrogate bay P8?

Still there, although mitigated by being able to use the overlap towards Scarborough (so long as nothing is coming into 3 or 4).

For many years the almost seemingly mandatory ‘scenic stop’ at Holgate Jn for northbound services was exacerbated by GNERs policy of not making last-minute replatformings; therefore trains waited for their booked platforms even during periods of disruption when an alternative might be available.

To be fair, having been at York waiting for a train to London that had it's platform changed 3 times, the last one not being announced until the DVT was actually under the footbridge, I can sympathise with GNER's policy here. Passengers rushing across to the platform often means the departure is delayed by about as long as the wait would have been for the booked platform.

 

[Watershed]

It may have since changed, but wasn’t there also a particularly nasty overlap conflict between a northbound arrival into P5 and anything entering / exiting the Harrogate bay P8?

For many years the almost seemingly mandatory ‘scenic stop’ at Holgate Jn for northbound services was exacerbated by GNERs policy of not making last-minute replatformings; therefore trains waited for their booked platforms even during periods of disruption when an alternative might be available.

There is, if the main route is used for the train signalled into 5. However, the overlap can be swung towards the Scarborough line - albeit this then causes a conflict with southbound arrivals into 3.

It's worth noting that the Down Main towards Skelton Jn is bi-di, so you can have simultaneous arrivals from Harrogate over the Down Main into 8-11 and from Northallerton over the Up Main into 3, and indeed this is booked at certain times of day.

There is also a warner route into 5 from the south, which would then allow all 3 of the above moves to take place simultaneously, subject to approach control for the northbound arrival.

 

[Seehof]

How did the name “Warner” come about? Ironically, my father in law was a “Warner” and was a senior signal engineer on the Eastern Region!

 

[zwk500]

How did the name “Warner” come about? Ironically, my father in law was a “Warner” and was a senior signal engineer on the Eastern Region!

The train (well, the driver) is 'warned' about the increased danger due to the obstructed overlap.

 

[Haywain]

The train (well, the driver) is 'warned' about the increased danger due to the obstructed overlap.

Is the driver informed verbally when this situation is being used?

 

[zwk500]

Is the driver informed verbally when this situation is being used?

AFAIK, no. As it's a fully signalled move, their route knowledge training will (should) cover this situation.

I only really interacted with them at a technical level (modelling runtimes and junction margins) rather than an operational one so I may be wrong on this.