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York Mail in steam days

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6Gman

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For many years there was a 0011 mail train from Crewe to York, which I used quite a few times in the early 70s. In earlier days it had actually started from as far away as Swansea!

How was it worked in steam days? By which I mean what worked it between Crewe and York - guessing either 5A (Crewe North) or 25G (Farnley Junction) throughout using a Black 5 but I could be completely wrong.

The return working, I believe, split at Stalybridge with portions for Liverpool/ Crewe and beyond. Presume through loco to Crewe with something coming light from the Manchester area?
 
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Bevan Price

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For many years there was a 0011 mail train from Crewe to York, which I used quite a few times in the early 70s. In earlier days it had actually started from as far away as Swansea!

How was it worked in steam days? By which I mean what worked it between Crewe and York - guessing either 5A (Crewe North) or 25G (Farnley Junction) throughout using a Black 5 but I could be completely wrong.

The return working, I believe, split at Stalybridge with portions for Liverpool/ Crewe and beyond. Presume through loco to Crewe with something coming light from the Manchester area?

I cannot answer for certain, but plenty of other steam sheds might have been involved -- there were steam sheds at Shrewsbury, Crewe South, Stockport, for example . It would almost certainly have had a loco change at Shrewsbury. There may also have been a loco change at Leeds, from "ex-LMS" to "ex-LNER" steam - such changes were common in the steam era.

A Black 5 seems a likely choice of motive power, but other classes cannot be ruled out - depending on what other trains formed part of the loco diagrams. If the York-bound train combined with a Liverpool portion at Stalybridge, then the loco off the Liverpool train might work forward as far as Leeds - and in the last years of steam, that was often booked for a Farnley Junction Jubilee, returning home after a passenger working into Liverpool.
 

Taunton

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Crewe Black 5, or Jubilee if heavy, would be likely. Don't forget this route was onetime LNWR all the way from Crewe to Leeds. I know nowadays the Stalybridge to Stockport line is regarded as a bit of a joke, but back in steam days I would say 50% or more of the many freights that came over Standedge turned left at Stalybridge and went to Stockport etc rather than continued to Manchester.

There's someone on the web who writes from having been steam, then diesel, loco crew at Birkenhead, and even from such a less-mainstream point it is surprising how many turns from there went to Healey Mills, Leeds, etc.

When electric services came along in 1960 it was policy to use electric locos as much as possible (initially they had far too many) and so I believe this service did so from Crewe to Stockport, whereupon either Stockport or one of the Leeds depots would take over until quite late in the steam era.

Leeds was indeed a frontier, and commonly would have a loco change on to York.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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The York-Shrewsbury mail is covered in detail by Express Publishing’s ‘Operation West Coast’, the following is a direct extract regarding the southbound working in 1955;

23.58 Stalybridge - Stockport - Crewe - Shrewsbury - Swansea (08.06)

This service was actually the South Wales section of the 21.50 York - Liverpool which divided at Stalybridge and was unaccountably - since nothing about the service had any connection with North Wales - known throughout the system as the ‘Bangor Mail’. As the West Coast Postal connected the LMS system from North to South, so the Bangor Mail connected the system from North East to South West with the common meeting ground of Crewe.
The heart of the train was the three-coach section (plus a Full Brake) which worked through from York to Swansea but there were a number of vehicles which ran with the service for short periods. Of these, the most prominent were the pair of TPO sorting vehicles that ran from York to Shrewsbury and were accompanied by a Full Brake which came from Newcastle and contained mail from the North East to be sorted and bagged in time to connect with the other mail services at Crewe. More mail was attached at Stockport, some for Swansea and some for Aberystwyth via Whitchurch. The rear of the train was brought up by a pair of fish vans; one, from Grimsby, acquired at Stockport and the other from Fleetwood and attached at Crewe. The Grimsby vehicle ran to a very tight schedule since it came into the area in the 17.15 Grimsby - Guide Bridge via Woodhead and was then tripped to Manchester London Road to be attached to the 00.10 London Road - Stockport parcels. The passenger coaches and TPO vehicles remained in Swansea and Shrewsbury respectively until forming the corresponding service the following night.
The BR version of the train differed very little from that of the LMS era, the main change being that only two passenger coaches ran through from York to Swansea although a third vehicle - an LNER brake composite - was conveyed from York to Shrewsbury.


Incidentally - to give a sense of the size and complexity of the southbound working - the formation of the train between Crewe and Whitchurch was 13 vehicles, 7 of which had originated in the 21.50 ex-York.

The northbound train in 1955 was a much simpler affair and the book has the following to say:

18.30 Swansea - Builth Road - Shrewsbury - Crewe - Stockport - York (03.37)

Named, for no obvious reason, the Bangor Mail, the 18.30 Swansea - York was the only Central Wales passenger service to run beyond Shrewsbury although the greater part of its importance came from the Royal Mail vehicles that worked between Shrewsbury and York. Worked by a Shrewsbury 5MT 4-6-0 to Stockport and a Longsight 5XP 4-6-0 beyond, the train did not combine with the Liverpool - York Mail as it did in the opposite direction but ran through to York as a separate working. The engine was that which later piloted the 09.50 Newcastle - Liverpool Express between Leeds and Manchester; finishing its day as pilot to the 21.50 York - Swansea which it worked between Stalybridge and Stockport.
The train had changed very little over the years and the only difference was that before the war two instead of three passenger coaches had been worked from Swansea although to compensate, an LNER brake composite had been added at Shrewsbury and went not only to York, but was transferred to a North Eastern train and taken through to Newcastle.


Again, for reference, between Shrewsbury and Crewe the formation was 8 vehicles, including 3 passenger coaches.

Hope this is of interest, I really recommend the Express Publishing series of books If you’re interested in timetabling and rolling stock diagrams / train formations in steam age.
 
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Wyrleybart

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Interesting thread and trains I travelled on several times in the 1980s however I have seen photos from the 1970s of a BR class 24 diesel on a number of NPCCS vehicles at Aberystwyth with the 'York Mail".

A recently retired driver from our TOC who was an Edgeley fireman back then, told me the Britannias shedded at Edgeley, as well as for the Eustons, were also to eliminate double heading between Stockport and York each night. I have never checked to see if it is correct but am sure he said that prior to the 7Ps arriving it was a 5MT+5XP job.
 

Taunton

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Hope this is of interest, I really recommend the Express Publishing series of books If you’re interested in timetabling and rolling stock diagrams / train formations in steam age.
They are really interesting detail. Unfortunately they seem to do a very limited print run of each one (it's not a big market, after all), and when they're gone they're gone. Most of what they have done seems out of print. Really the sort of thing that would suit better web downloads once the print run has gone. I would certainly buy them from there.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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They are really interesting detail. Unfortunately they seem to do a very limited print run of each one (it's not a big market, after all), and when they're gone they're gone. Most of what they have done seems out of print. Really the sort of thing that would suit better web downloads once the print run has gone. I would certainly buy them from there.

I agree, and it’s a pity as they are pretty unique publications tackling a really key part of railway operational history that is very poorly covered until now.

That being said, used copies do tend to appear on Amazon from time to time so keep an eye out. I bought three different titles in one go a few weeks ago, about the Midland Main Line, Midland & SW and West London Line, all fascinating reading.

Alternatively, check out this link: https://rail-books.co.uk/collections/all-books/xpress-publishing
 

30907

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I agree, and it’s a pity as they are pretty unique publications tackling a really key part of railway operational history that is very poorly covered until now.

That being said, used copies do tend to appear on Amazon from time to time so keep an eye out. I bought three different titles in one go a few weeks ago, about the Midland Main Line, Midland & SW and West London Line, all fascinating reading.

Alternatively, check out this link: https://rail-books.co.uk/collections/all-books/xpress-publishing
I assume the firm is no longer in business, or the authors have run out of documents/notebooks/energy - nothing new has appeared for some years.
 

Taunton

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There was another thread on here describing how the authors and publishers had been, as you might expect, notably elderly gentlemen, and time has alas moved on.
 

Grumpy

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A recently retired driver from our TOC who was an Edgeley fireman back then, told me the Britannias shedded at Edgeley, as well as for the Eustons, were also to eliminate double heading between Stockport and York each night. I have never checked to see if it is correct but am sure he said that prior to the 7Ps arriving it was a 5MT+5XP job.
I caught this train from Leeds to Crewe one Saturday night in 1966. It was two black fives to Stalybridge where the train split. One took part of the train forward to Victoria and the other took our portion to Stockport where an electric took over to Crewe. I changed at Crewe (as I suspect did a lot of mailbags) onto another train which ran to Swansea via Shrewsbury and Newport. The Leeds train followed us to Shrewsbury later.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The York-Shrewsbury mail is covered in detail by Express Publishing’s ‘Operation West Coast’, the following is a direct extract regarding the southbound working in 1955;
23.58 Stalybridge - Stockport - Crewe - Shrewsbury - Swansea (08.06)
This service was actually the South Wales section of the 21.50 York - Liverpool which divided at Stalybridge and was unaccountably - since nothing about the service had any connection with North Wales - known throughout the system as the ‘Bangor Mail’. As the West Coast Postal connected the LMS system from North to South, so the Bangor Mail connected the system from North East to South West with the common meeting ground of Crewe.

I got interested in the labyrinthine workings of this train, as my grandad worked the signal box at Lymm (near Warrington) and this was his main train - the York mail.
The Liverpool portion ran from Lime St via Ditton Jn, Warrington BQ LL, Lymm, Skelton Jn and Northenden to Stockport Edgeley, passing Lymm around midnight, and then joining up with the Shrewsbury/Swansea portion for the run to York via Stalybridge.
There was no return service via Lymm, and I eventually found out from the 1938 Bradshaw that the Liverpool portion ran from Stalybridge via Manchester Exchange, Tyldesley, Wigan NW and St Helens Shaw St.
A fantastically complicated train, dating right back to LNWR days (it's in the 1910 Bradshaw).
In fact looking at the 1910 timetable it also attached coaches from Cardiff to Newcastle at Huddersfield.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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I got interested in the labyrinthine workings of this train, as my grandad worked the signal box at Lymm (near Warrington) and this was his main train - the York mail.
The Liverpool portion ran from Lime St via Ditton Jn, Warrington BQ LL, Lymm, Skelton Jn and Northenden to Stockport Edgeley, passing Lymm around midnight, and then joining up with the Shrewsbury/Swansea portion for the run to York via Stalybridge.
There was no return service via Lymm, and I eventually found out from the 1938 Bradshaw that the Liverpool portion ran from Stalybridge via Manchester Exchange, Tyldesley, Wigan NW and St Helens Shaw St.
A fantastically complicated train, dating right back to LNWR days (it's in the 1910 Bradshaw).
In fact looking at the 1910 timetable it also attached coaches from Cardiff to Newcastle at Huddersfield.

Interesting, so clearly at some point the northbound trains did meet up and combine into a single portion. Perhaps by the mid-1950s the Liverpool portion had become too large to combine with the Swansea part, or simply that the timings did not match for whatever reason.

In my own experience the York-Shrewsbury TPO ran until about 1990 (?) and it was a familiar sight in an up bay platform at York during the mid/late evening with a Class 47 at the head. In it’s final weeks I was lucky enough to be invited on board with my father to see the postmen sorting mail into pigeon holes and the sacks of mail - one of those ‘formative memories’ at age 4!
 

Bevan Price

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Interesting thread and trains I travelled on several times in the 1980s however I have seen photos from the 1970s of a BR class 24 diesel on a number of NPCCS vehicles at Aberystwyth with the 'York Mail".
A little OT, but that reminds me of a tale from about 1966, when the Aberystwyth part of the York mail was one of the last steam workings in that area. A couple of enthusiasts were aiming to get some steam mileage to Aberystwyh on that train. However, on a cold night, they made a mistake of asking the guard if the (steam) heat could be turned on/up. They duly got some steam heat - supplied by a boiler-fitted Class 24 which replaced the steam loco (which for some reason had been unable to provide enough steam to heat the train.
(I assume the steam loco had probably been a BR 75xxx class 4MT 4-6-0, as nothing larger was allowed on the Cambrian lines - or it may have been one of the last remaining GW Manor Class.)
 

6Gman

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By chance I've come across a note that the working altered in late 1957, transferring from Longsight (9A) to Crewe North (5A). As a 5A working it did:

Crewe-York on the mail
local York-Leeds
pilot a Newcastle-Liverpool to Manchester Exchange
local Manchester-Leeds
Leeds-Crewe on the mail (so presumably an NER loco York-Leeds)
 
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